Tim Cook calls assault on Apple's ethics in China "patently false and offensive" - Page 3

I lived at a factory for six months. I visited the workers' dorms. I was friends with workers. I watched their work on a daily basis. I saw how they were treated.

Factory workers in China are generally much happier than the general population in China. They are treated well, but they are expected to do the job they are hired for. They are fed, clothed and housed, and most of them send their earnings home to family. It's a pretty good situation for them.

The workers at factories like Foxconn factories are paid more than most factory workers, and their jobs are correspondingly harder. Their living conditions are better, but their stress levels are higher.

I agree with you that Apple should be proactive here. It's ultimately better for their manufacturing, better for their image, and better for their shareholders. BUT it's not just about you or I paying more to cover Apple's lost margins from doing what you suggest. Moving manufacturing away from China comes with a large amount of loss in productivity on the manufacturing line. One thing China has that the US doesn't is an abundance of people in certain urban areas. Yeah, the US is hurting for jobs at home, but Apple would need to build several dozens of plants all over the country to employ the necessary manpower and churn out the product numbers they get from Foxconn. That's a huge expenditure. As I said above, I would love to see Apple stamping "Designed and Built by Apple in California" on their products, but it just isn't going to happen.

Also, you think it's already hard enough dispelling the "Apple tax" myth now, just wait until you're asking people to shell out $250 instead of $200 for an iPhone, or $625 instead of $500 for an iPad, or $1250 instead of $1000 for a MBA. I'd rather Apple keeps it's prices low and be a force for good in the otherwise murky world of Chinese labor practices.

So a next question might be - if we accept that these workers are largely better off than their compatriots, even if they may be worse off than similar workers in the West - what obligation does that place on companies like Apple? Should they rejoice because they have contributed to improving the lives of the workers, or should they not be satisfied until they have raised the standards there to a level comparable with the West?

Great you witnessed the situation. But you're not addressing the accusations though, just like Tim and Apple. It's about safety/health of the employees, the tradeoff between that and the high production volume, high margin of Apple. Not about whether these people are 'better off' than if they don't get a job at Foxconn things like that.

It's because apple is the top dog. America loves when an underdog becomes top dog but at the same time loves to knock down the top dog a few rungs. Just because the media doesn't report incidents at HP, Samsung, Dell plants doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I can provide lots of cites that back up the notion that the pyramids were not built by slaves. The history you cite is simply wrong.

How about this cite from a very reputable archeologist.

Here is another cite with lots of cites backing him up:


And this guy too...

I can go on and on here.

The New York Times article said the added cost would be $46 per iPhone, if it were manufactured in the US instead of China. Manufactured in the USA by people with decent jobs and benefits. Hmmm.

In Q1/2012 Apple made a gross margin of 45% (before overhead, etc) on all their products combined, and for the iPhone it is probably more than that. So instead of a gross margin of about $300 per iPhone, it would be $244 if they made them here and sold them at the same price.

So on the basis of cost at least, it is by no means "impossible" to manufacture iPhones in the USA.

If Brazil can force Apple to manufacture all the iPads and iPhones sold in Brazil in Brazil, creating lots of manufacturing jobs, surely a powerful country like USA (with the biggest consumer sector in the world) could do so. But we don't.

Our government is owned by people who don't give a damn about good jobs for the 99%. And they have convinced most us that these free-market, job-aborting policies are "right." So we all suffer unemployment and poor job opportunities, and worry that our kids will be trying to live on $8/hr for the rest of their lives.

Things will only change when there are no middle class jobs left, and people have nothing left to lose.

1. Who's writing your stuff? You sound exactly like the late ConradJoe.

2. Do you have even the slightest bit of evidence that Tim Cook did not write this email? It sounds exactly like him.

Apple's high margin has nothing to do with this.

He is. Same IP address as ConradJoe's last posts. Now will you agree with me that he's a dupe account, other mods? We have an outside opinion now.

I find that very, very hard to believe. First off, Apple doesn't release costs, so any starting cost is pure speculation. Second, western overhead is much, much higher than the equivalent in China. That made up number likely isn't burdened.

Apple also would have to invest in massive production facilities, as their is no U.S. plant that can handle the volume Apple needs. China has spent the last decades ramping up for massive production; Apple can just snap its fingers and duplicate that? There would also be unions, and union dues, and all the other hidden costs that make U.S. production so unrealistic.

Lastly, how many people would want to actually work there? I don't think it's a fun job, and Apple would have to pay more than minimum wage to attract people. Already, many Americans are more content to leave the unsavory jobs to the illegals.

I'd bet that it would not add anywhere near 25% to the costs.

I wonder if Apple paid 10 cents more per major process, how much that might change things? If there were 100 major steps in (sub)assembling the product, that would add only $10 in manufacturing costs.

Why? Why should Apple do any of this? They don't owe it to anybody. They didn't kidnap these people and force them to work. Just like in the U.S., people choose to work or not. During CNY, many plants have high turnover as workers leave to work at the family farm, or get a different job. Their not conscripts. They get paid a wage in exchange for labor. If they didn't feel it was just, they'd work someplace else. If you feel the whole system needs to get changed, then that's an issue left for China's government, the government the people formed. Not some outside corporation.


They don't make a few dollars a day. They're not paid in dollars. They're paid in yuan. Even though exchanged it may be equivalent to a "few dollars", that's over simplifying it, as costs of living are much, much lower.

Well, I am sure you did much more research than the NYT to reach your conclusion.

Most of the cost of an iPhone 4S is NOT labor. And some of the components already come from the USA (like the A5 made by Samsung in Texas). The A5 is, what, 25% of the cost of the phone? And the screen is a big part of the rest. So the Chinese labor is mostly assembing the iPhone - for a labor cost of under $10. Which would be something like $50 here.

You've seen a movie. Well then, I cede the floor to you.

MOST jobs are not fun. And fun is irrelevant if you don't have one.

I was being sarcastic about "fun"; it would be grueling, mind-numbing, repetitive work, and many American's already choose to go unemployed rather than take a minimum wage job.

I'm speaking with experience calculating overhead and seeing the cost changes between U.S. production and Chinese production. You think the Chinese make a 1/5th of what an American makes? Try 1/20th.

Also, you don't address the issue of Apple building plants in the U.S. You know how big Foxconn is? For Apple to duplicate that would take billions and billions, years, and a dramatic increase in overhead. It's not like Apple is sitting on a massive plant that's just sitting there, not being used.

So in addition to the increased labor costs, you'd have dramatically increased overhead, as well as more administration costs.

Plus, Apple would still be forced to use Chinese vendors, so what would that solve? Or do you mean Apple would also make the chips, glass, etc. in house?

That does it, I'm resurrecting the spirit of Upton Sinclair.

Fine, let's assume on a cost basis Apple COULD build an iPhone stateside ... but that doesn't address the issue of scale. Where are they going to find the workforce and factory capacity to churn out 15 - 40 M iPhones every three months? I highly doubt the NYT's $46 number too. It comes with no explanation and absolutely no knowledge of Apple's material, labor, or overhead costs associated with their manufacturing lines. Only Apple knows for sure what those numbers are and they're not telling.


We could, but that defeats the whole concept of free enterprise. From a strictly political standpoint, if you require Apple to do that, you're going to have to require every other company to do that as well. I'm not so sure a lot of foreign companies are going to be thrilled being made to build new factories in the US, pay higher wages to US workers, interact with US labor unions, be subjected to US environmental standards, etc. You risk a lot of companies with much lower profit margins than Apple abandoning the US market for emerging markets in Asia and South America. I would hate to live in a country where it's okay to be entrepreneurial, but not okay to become TOO successful, lest the government tell you what to do with your money.


Off topic, but I'll bite. Apple is not responsible for digging the US out of unemployment and economic recession. They already employ thousands of engineers, designers, admin personnel, support staff, programmers, etc. in Cupertino. They already employ an enormous retail workforce in the US. They've spawned secondary job creation with the iTunes and Mac App Stores. They've helped give indie musicians an avenue to profit from their work rather than starve or face indentured servitude with a major record label. They already help prop up their own suppliers and their telecom partners here at home. How exactly is that a policy of "job-aborting"?

[QUOTE=Pendergast;2033047]Why? Why should Apple do any of this? They don't owe it to anybody. They didn't kidnap these people and force them to work. Just like in the U.S., people choose to work or not. During CNY, many plants have high turnover as workers leave to work at the family farm, or get a different job. Their not conscripts. They get paid a wage in exchange for labor. If they didn't feel it was just, they'd work someplace else. If you feel the whole system needs to get changed, then that's an issue left for China's government, the government the people formed. Not some outside corporation.


The real question is why shouldn't Apple do it. Apple (yes, "my" company because I'm a shareholder) has a huge hoard of cash and can afford to do the things I mentioned.

Apple can raise the bar for all other companies and raise the living standard of these HUMAN BEINGS. What is the down side? A slight blip in the bottom line?

To say "they didn't kidnap these people" is not the point. People will go to where the jobs are (and yes, that's true in North America too, in case you've missed the immigration issue) because they need to live. Is it not the employers' responsibility to provide decent living and working conditions? Apple can easily do this and should, ethically. The bottom line will be almost unaffected. And, by raising the bar, other tech companies will get in line or suffer the poor PR that will surely follow.

By the way, why not offer bonuses to workers for longevity and loyalty, too. Solves the turnover problem to which you refer...
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[QUOTE=JayBeeson;2033076]
I'm also both an Apple fan/user and a stockholder. I think Cook's reply was disappointing. I'd like specific responses to the allegations made. If the auditors can be bought off, doesn't that undermine the imprimatur Apple says it has?

Spend the money, fix the problems. If everything in the article is a lie, prove it--the NYT did its research (read the articles; they're not just based on easily-dismissed former employees). I don't expect gainsay in reply.

Who cares just keep churning out cool products. When the Chinese are all used up, Apple will move on to another country, just do not stop production.

As I read through this whole thread, I see very few who actually show concern for the Chinese workers. The majority are simply upset Apple is in the spot light about it and in a negative light. The priorities of some??

Of course Apple is Steve Jobs, known to have denied paternity of his first child, admitted to stealing others ideas and gloating about it, denial of his own father, model human rights leader, super star.

Perhaps you could share how you have been showing your concern for the Chinese workers.

By hating Apple.

I don't care about the Chinese worker, they can fall off the Earth and it would not matter to me.

But what about all the electronics you (presumably) buy that are made in China?

Then why do you give a shit about the motives of others... oh, forgive me, I forgot... anything that puts Apple in a bad light is something that you enjoy.

I dont care who makes it, just make it.

I don't, just pointing it out.

It's commendable that Apple brings this into the open and appears to be honest about it - Tim Cook seems very genuine like a lot of Apple staff and it's nice to see - but their reports still grade by Eastern standards and not Western standards:

http://www.apple.com/supplierrespons...y/reports.html

They don't mention what the salaries are and if it's a fair compensation for the work performed, how many people share dorms and for how long.

The stats show that only 38% of the companies complied with the 60 hour per week working limit. You don't have to raise the bar very high to come out above the other options when they are so poor.

Every worker should live with their family, not in a dorm. They should earn enough money after a working week to pay for their home + expenses and have a reasonable amount of disposable income.

Apple can draw up a comparison between an average factory worker in the US and an average factory worker in China and see the difference in their quality of life. The life of a Chinese worker isn't worth any less than an American one so they should be treated exactly the same.

The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.

I like your honesty. But it kind of weakens your credibility in criticizing posters trying to have a discussion on the role of Apple and others in modifying the economy and business practices in China, no matter what their opinion.

Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?

Exactly. Somewhere towards the latter condition is a threshold that could be regarded as exploitation, but where should Apple (and all the other companies) try to drive the balance? Presumably not all the way to absolute happiness, as that doesn't exist in factories anywhere (does it?). On par with Western factories? Hard to figure where that lies given the huge discrepancies in culture and economy.

I'm sure no one's feelings are hurt, but it's hard to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this discussion. You don't care, but everyone else should, is all I got so far.

On what basis should Apple be forced to grade by U.S. standards? What if Apple's HQ were in Shanghai and they had Apple Stores in the U.S. Should they be able to pay the employees according to China standards? 70 hours a week for $20 a week? Or, even more to the point, work week is lower in Europe than in the U.S. Should Apple be able to force people to work U.S. hours in Europe because it's an American company? That doesn't make any more sense than expecting Apple to use U.S. standards in China.

Feelings get hurt?

Do your feelings get hurt by something said on this board?

Really?

My contribution is just this, to bring attention to the fact on how shallow so many are, yes I am shallow in this regard. The hypocrisy is astounding, forum members they stomp and pound regarding IP and theft of Apple ideas ect....... Grab the pitch forks but when it comes to actual human beings, they could care less and still only care about what light Apple may be held under.

If I actually knew what you were babbeling on about I may be able to answer this.

OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.