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Amazon "defined and dominated" low-end tablet market with 6 million Kindle Fires - Page 3

post #81 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Competition? What planet are you from anyway? Is KIA competing with BMW? Two completely different markets. I really don't grok posts like yours.

Competition in the since that many people will find the Amazon Tablet good enough and will not be buying the higher priced iPad. The fire works fine as a email reader, web browser, book reader, photo viewer, and media consumer. There are many people who do not use tablets for anything else. Any rational person will have to conclude that the Fire will have some negative affect on iPad sales. I do not think it will be a huge effect, but it will keep Apple honest with prices and that is a good thing. The Fire will get better over time. There is a price/quality point where even a BMW owner would buy a Kia. In fact some of the newer high end Koren cars are truly starting to win over the BMW crowd....

I never said it was as good as the ipad.... You rabid fanboys are amazing....
post #82 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

Apple could probably provide a lower end iPad that performs reasonably well sometime in the next year without usability sacrifices to add competition on the (previously nonexistent) low-end of the market.

I think it may be more interesting if Apple creates a scaled up version of the iPod Touch to compete with the fire. No iPad apps, but would work fine for iBooks, movies and games. The retina display resolution on the iPod touch gives them a lot of leeway to create a 7" device with a reasonable (non-retina) resolution. With all the rumors of a 7" iPad, I wonder if Apple may be experimenting with a larger iPod Touch. Downsizing the iPad doesn't make any sense because that would put a lot of extra burden on developers. Making the iPod touch larger would just work. I bet Apple could match (or at least be in the ballpark of) the price of the fire without subsidizing. I think it makes sense to have a big and small iPod touch and a retina and non-retina iPad. A big iPod touch would work well as a gateway device before getting a real iPad and it would also be appealing to families buying devices for children.

Of course if Apple didn't respond at all, the Fire could work to kill innovation in the Android market because developers would have no incentive to target the last two major releases of Android. However, this may just work in the short run. It would make sense that Amazon would refresh the Fire with newer hardware eventually and update the operating system to something newer. Regardless, Amazon may completely take over the Android market. That isn't necessarily good for Apple because it would provide a strong competitor instead of many weak competitors. It also isn't good for Google, but I don't see a clear way Google will come out ahead in the tablet market no matter what happens.

As I look at the success Apple is enjoying with iPad2, and with Steve Jobs ref to 7" is too small ... I am of the opinion Apple won't react to "FIRE" as too small, too cheap, no profit. They don't have to. I certain appreciate how most of the comment folks want more for less ... but in the real world, that is not Apple's approach. Apple is expanding into schools, and enterprise in a huge way. And Siri is just the tip of the iceberg... has search potential that is really scary for Google. Notice they just introduced e-textbooks. They have security features that enterprise absolutely needs and requires. Android is trouble in the malware department.

So Apple is coming out with a major upgrade again ... better resolution, faster processor and graphics, better for Medical, graphics and Mapping services. Notice how the office like functionality is showing up in Apps. Wireless connectivity and iCloud will be huge for enterprise for sync. Backup is still up for grabs as the phone carriers control these communication pathways, and all they want to do is take your money and slow down the date rates, because the networks get over whelmed quickly with large data volume transfer.

Put your business hats on people, not just your consumer low income wishes.
post #83 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegurgitatedCoprolite View Post

Wow! Six million KFs, each sold at a loss. Impressive.

No, six million shipped, as in some number of those didn't sell during the quarter. Those unsold units will either reduce shipments in future quarters or get returned for an even bigger loss.

Until someone can publish actual sales numbers or at least continuing shipments over several quarters to show the steady state sell-thru, these are all just bad and mostly useless guesses.
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post #84 of 127
Talk of a 7" iPod Touch to me doesn't equal a $200 Kindle Fire-like price point. The base model iPod Touch is already $200. If Apple were to come out with a fabled 7" iPod Touch I would imagine it would come out to at least $350 for the base model. I don't think that entices customers to shell out the extra $150 to stay with Apple when they can save it and get the Fire. Even if they were to remove the retina display I think the doubling of the screen size doesn't keep the price within range. With the margins Apple likes to see a new product competing with the Kindle Fire doesn't seem viable at this point.

I think they're conceding the low-end table market. Or to put it better, not considering the low-end tablet market.

Just like the BMW-Kia comparison..BMW's lowest priced new vehicle starts at $30K. They feel no need to jump into the low-end car market. They get their margins and they're seen as a high-dollar high-quality brand.
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post #85 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcstarheel View Post

I think they're conceding the low-end table market. Or to put it better, not considering the low-end tablet market.

Just like the BMW-Kia comparison..BMW's lowest priced new vehicle starts at $30K. They feel no need to jump into the low-end car market. They get their margins and they're seen as a high-dollar high-quality brand.

Totally agree. Apple are already in the low-end market... with the Touch/iPhone.

Anything in-between would erode their market share in the premium market.
post #86 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-Daddy View Post

Come on people, give credit when credit is due. All I'm reading on here is sour grapes. Being able to sell 6,000,000 of anything is impressive. Period.

I heard another analyst say that Amazon was projected to sell 8,000,000 Fires... so 6,000,000 is a very big disappointment...

Actually, most observations based on Amazon's claims are that 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 Fires were sold to end users and the reseller channel.

The fact that some analyst can pull an unsubstantiated number like 6,000,000 out of the air and have others accept this as fact... ...is disturbing... very disturbing!

So, I'll take the second analyst's 8,000,000 and raise it to 10,000,000...


Now, compare that to 15,400,000 substantiated iPad sales ...

Some will claim that the Fire's 10,000,000 number is 65% of iPad sales...


See how easy and stupid that is?

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post #87 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

I have seen 2-3 in steady use at the local coffee shop. Still greatly outnumbered by iPads but a respectable showing and the users seem to like the Fire.

I have seen two in "regular use." One was the kid at Starbucks who looks like he gets beaten up a lot already... and the KF won't help matters.

The other was a woman on the plane who didn't think she could get an iPad because they use a PC. (She benefits from a smaller device given that she stuffs it in her purse.)
post #88 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcstarheel View Post

Talk of a 7" iPod Touch to me doesn't equal a $200 Kindle Fire-like price point. The base model iPod Touch is already $200. If Apple were to come out with a fabled 7" iPod Touch I would imagine it would come out to at least $350 for the base model.

Historically, Apple releases new updates (even massive updates) at the previous price points. When the iPod Video came out, was it more expensive than the previous model? Was the iPod touch significantly more expensive than the iPod Video? No to both.

I could easily see Apple releasing an iPod touch at 6", keeping the same price points. Component prices have fallen, and the iPod touch is currently overpriced (I mean, it's a 3.5" device; a 10" iPad only costs about twice as much). Even if it went up a little bit, a $249 or $279 6" iPod touch would hurt the Kindle.

Question is, would they keep the current iPod touch around and drop it to $149 for an 8GB version?
post #89 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by realwarder View Post

Totally agree. Apple are already in the low-end market... with the Touch/iPhone.

Anything in-between would erode their market share in the premium market.


What the iPhone is the most exspensive phone on the market today. Here in Switzerland it costs 550 CHF for a unlocked Samsung Galaxy Note and a whopping 780 CHF for a unlocked iPhone 4S. I wouldn't say that the iPhone is considered low-end, it's very, very high-end which is what makes it great. Even the iPod Touch are considered high-end and are more exspensive then most other PMP's out their, in that form factor of course. The low end would be the Shuffle.
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post #90 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

What the iPhone is the most exspensive phone on the market today. Here in Switzerland it costs 550 CHF for a unlocked Samsung Galaxy Note and a whopping 780 CHF for a unlocked iPhone 4S. I wouldn't say that the iPhone is considered low-end, it's very, very high-end which is what makes it great. Even the iPod Touch are considered high-end and are more exspensive then most other PMP's out their, in that form factor of course. The low end would be the Shuffle.

Americans don't look at it like that at all. Americans buy their phones subsidized. To an American the iPhone is $199 and the contract isn't taken into account at all.
post #91 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Apple margin on the iPad is high. Why would they want to get a lower margin on a smaller device?

If anything, the low-end iPad 2 will be discounted by $100-$150 when the next iPad comes out. Right there it'll be about $350-400 and entice potential Kindle owners.

The market place has spoken, the iPad in its current price/form is winning the tablet market. The 5" and 7" tablets have failed to knock Apple from its perch.

well, i'm talking about a scaled-up iPod touch, not a scaled-down iPad. i think we all agree the iPad OS and apps can't be shrunken down successfully. but of course the iPhone OS and apps can be enlarged somewhat and still be great to use. games, media, and web browsing especially. and if Apple has a decent profit on the $199 iPod touch now, it should have a bigger profit margin on a $299 5.5" version, since the only added parts costs are the larger screen and bigger battery really.

and 7" is still too large to be really portable for many, but the 5" range is for most.

until there is an Apple mid-sized tablet of some kind that we then observe how well it sells, the market has not yet finished speaking.
post #92 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Historically, Apple releases new updates (even massive updates) at the previous price points. When the iPod Video came out, was it more expensive than the previous model? Was the iPod touch significantly more expensive than the iPod Video? No to both.

I could easily see Apple releasing an iPod touch at 6", keeping the same price points. Component prices have fallen, and the iPod touch is currently overpriced (I mean, it's a 3.5" device; a 10" iPad only costs about twice as much). Even if it went up a little bit, a $249 or $279 6" iPod touch would hurt the Kindle.

Question is, would they keep the current iPod touch around and drop it to $149 for an 8GB version?

sure they would. today's touch is clearly replacing the iPod as Apple's main PMP very successfully.
post #93 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The poorer the quality of the meat -- the more spices you put on it!

I like this analogy, and further think that there are times when I want to pay a premium for a Kobe rib-eye and times when I want a good burger. Both always completely fulfill my needs when I want them, but they aren't the same thing. I need both to satisfy my appetite for things that go "moo", so "Go Apple" *and* "Go Amazon!"
post #94 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsmuse View Post

I`m an Apple fan but am heavily invested in the Amazon ecosystem and I`m telling you this strategy is making them money.

Really, based on your sample size of one you are going to declare that the Fire is making money?
post #95 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Absolutely nothing to see here, people.

that's what Novell said....the wolves are always at the door....
post #96 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

that's what Novell said....the wolves are always at the door....

They can huff and puff all they want, but as long as they're just claiming to be blowing without actually doing it, I'm not worried.

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post #97 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They can huff and puff all they want, but as long as they're just claiming to be blowing without actually doing it, I'm not worried.

why would you be worried anyway? apple is not the 'underdog' or even the 'misfit' anymore. it is the new Disney and HP
post #98 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

If you're an Amazon Prime member (and all Kindle Fires come with a trial), then you get a lot of free books and movies. It's a very good deal, and it absolutely does keep customers coming back and spending money on other things.

I love my Kindle Fire and over the course of the year, I'm sure it will get Amazon a profit. The device is a loss leader, yes, but it serves as an entry point into their media ecosystem.

I would be surprised if people didn't buy the vast majority of Fires directly from Amazon, so "shipped" here is probably a better estimate than most other Android tablets. (Better, mind you not perfect.)

How is it a better estimate if Amazon isn't providing the numbers?

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post #99 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsmuse View Post

I have no idea why y`all keep bashing this little tablet.

I`m an Apple fan but am heavily invested in the Amazon ecosystem and I`m telling you this strategy is making them money.

I`ve spent a couple hours on one of these things and they`re fast, intuitive, and sensitive.

It`s actually the best Android tablet I`ve seen yet.

Until Amazon tells us the actual numbers, your comment is strictly your opinion, which is not based on any verifiable facts.

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post #100 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think the analyst is way off...

At least 10mm KFCs are sold every week and 40% of those are extra crispy

All finger licking good too.

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post #101 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by realwarder View Post

Personally, I see meeting 40% of the Apple shipments as being a _massive_ win for Amazon. Not 'just a fraction'. A big fraction.

Apple is entrenched in this market and for an outsider to come in and be selling close to 50% of the number of devices overnight is an amazing achievement in such a short time. Amazon will be very happy.

And why did they sell so many? As someone who actually has one, they are very neat devices. Sure, the iPad is better. It had better be given the price difference, but the gap is not as large as the price difference.

Personally I hope the iPad 3 is an amazing bit of technology placing Apple clearly back in the lead. The iPhone 4S was a disappointment - not something Apple should be repeating.

How is it a big win when Amazon loses money selling them? It is still a BIG gamble by Amazon and only time will show if Amazon's strategy will prove to be successful or just a very expensive mistake.

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post #102 of 127
Some items which might affect the Amazon Kindle Fire program:
1. The Kindle Fire is "US only".
2. because the Amazon Prime program is "US only".
3. The Amazon MP3 Store is "US only".
4. and has been such since it opened c.2008.
5. Amazon does not have a coherent cross-border product delivery program.

Amazon's sparking success with the Fire has been "US only". Improvements to its web-store, being based on the Kindle Fire store, should help the sales of other Android tablets profiting from the absence of the Fire.

Cheers
post #103 of 127
Again another useless article that talks about shipped kindles and does not give you sold ones. The 15millions iPads were "Sold". When you Amazon can put up real "Sold" Numbers like apple does then we will talk. Untill then these numbers are being pulled out of someones backside oraface and as such dont mean a thing, and are totally worthless.
post #104 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Again another useless article that talks about shipped kindles and does not give you sold ones. The 15millions iPads were "Sold". When you Amazon can put up real "Sold" Numbers like apple does then we will talk. Untill then these numbers are being pulled out of someones backside oraface and as such dont mean a thing, and are totally worthless.

More importantly, it's just a guess rather than factual information. And it does not fit with the factual information that Amazon released (1 M Kindles of ALL types per week). Maybe Amazon will surprise everyone and give out real figures tomorrow at their earnings report...... but I doubt it.

Oh, and btw, it also says nothing about profitability. If Amazon really is losing money on every unit sold, that's a huge drain on the business.
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post #105 of 127
Why doesn't Amazon release sales figures?? Every company on Wall Street has to reveal numbers. I hope they will come under pressure to support their claims. If you read the Amazon Kindle Fire's reviews you can see around 25% are given a 1 and there are lots of references to returns so even though they sold a few million give or take, what % were returned?? I think if I sold a product that had a successful launch and sold say 4 million units, I'd be proud of that number and position it as a success to shareholders, customers, partners, and the media. Something doesn't add up
post #106 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by corbettaa View Post

Why doesn't Amazon release sales figures?? Every company on Wall Street has to reveal numbers.

No, they don't. No real Android numbers have ever been posted by anyone.

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post #107 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Until Amazon tells us the actual numbers, your comment is strictly your opinion, which is not based on any verifiable facts.


Rabid Apple fanboys don't care about facts. They just won't believe them anyway. It is a very convenient defense mechanism to support their low self esteem that is tied to Apple products.
post #108 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy288 View Post

Rabid Apple fanboys don't care about facts. They just won't believe them anyway. It is a very convenient defense mechanism to support their low self esteem that is tied to Apple products.

I'm sorry, are you insinuating there are actual numbers put out by Android sellers or are you just using a blatant lie to insult virtually everyone here?

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The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #109 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Until Amazon tells us the actual numbers, your comment is strictly your opinion, which is not based on any verifiable facts.

I don't know if Amazon will release sales figures or not.

For what is is worth my KF's version number is; 6.2.2_user_3205xxx and my son's is 6.2.2_user_5173xxx. i can' t check my daughter's till she gets home. (last 3 digits redacted)

Mine was ordered in the middle of November and my kids' were ordered on Dec. 28.
post #110 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Again another useless article that talks about shipped kindles and does not give you sold ones. The 15millions iPads were "Sold". When you Amazon can put up real "Sold" Numbers like apple does then we will talk. Untill then these numbers are being pulled out of someones backside oraface and as such dont mean a thing, and are totally worthless.

I was at Target over the weekend. They had over 20 iPads in the case. Those were not SOLD, yet they were shipped. When will they be SOLD, who knows. Since when do people do electronics shopping at Target anyway? Yet, all the fanboys around here are content to consider it SOLD, when it hasn't been.
post #111 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy288 View Post

I was at Target over the weekend. They had over 20 iPads in the case. Those were not SOLD, yet they were shipped. When will they be SOLD, who knows. Since when do people do electronics shopping at Target anyway? Yet, all the fanboys around here are content to consider it SOLD, when it hasn't been.

Not sure what you mean. Apple released the # of iPads sold in ether quarter. That is fact. When has Amazon ever revealed the number of Kindle's sold? We know over 15M iPads were sold. We have no idea how many Fires were sold. It's just analysts guessing. And of course every guess they throw out there gets reported as a hard number, not a guess.
post #112 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy288 View Post

Yet, all the fanboys around here are content to consider it SOLD, when it hasn't been.

Oh. I'm sorry. It sounds like you have absolute proof that those iPads were counted as sold when they actually weren't.

Now if you'd be so kind as to produce this proof for us 'fanboys', we'll start baking our humble pie.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #113 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I'm sorry, are you insinuating there are actual numbers put out by Android sellers or are you just using a blatant lie to insult virtually everyone here?

Whatever works for you is fine with me.
post #114 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy288 View Post

Whatever works for you is fine with me.

No, I'd like an actual answer. Do you have any proof or source for your statements anywhere? Is there a repository of real numbers of Android devices somewhere that everyone else has missed?

Or some proof that those iPads in Target that you saw were counted by Apple as sold instead of shipped. That would also be acceptable.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #115 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy288 View Post

Rabid Apple fanboys don't care about facts. They just won't believe them anyway. It is a very convenient defense mechanism to support their low self esteem that is tied to Apple products.

I love the way that fandroids live in some alternate reality.

Apple releases actual sales numbers - and those are the numbers that Apple fans quote. None of the Android suppliers (except Motorola for tablets, IIRC) reports sales figures. Instead, we get things like 'smooth' for sales. Or a number like "1 million a week" but that covers at least 4 different products so it's impossible to say how many any one product sold. And the fandroids are OK with that lack of details.

Yet the fandroids argue that Apple fans don't care about facts.
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post #116 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, I'd like an actual answer. Do you have any proof or source for your statements anywhere? Is there a repository of real numbers of Android devices somewhere that everyone else has missed?

Or some proof that those iPads in Target that you saw were counted by Apple as sold instead of shipped. That would also be acceptable.

Why do you even bother, with these people. Do you think you're going to get an informed, serious response?

It's laughable --sad, really -- to watch them create their own reality and live in it.

Talk about an RDF......
post #117 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Why do you even bother, with these people. Do you think you're going to get an informed, serious response?

No, but guests reading here and seeing their posts go unchallenged could take that as a sign they're telling the truth. I don't really want that.

Only in the most egregious of cases is it 'feeding the trolls', and those people are often quickly dealt with.

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The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #118 of 127
I'm already seeing people (here and elsewhere) defend the Kindle Fire as a loss leader. Just declaring something a loss leader doesn't automatically defend any questionable financial decisions in the pricing of a product.

And more to the point, Amazon already had a lot of Kindle users out there prior to the Fire so you have to question if the costs of selling something like the Fire really will be offset by sales of content. They were already making money off the content without the Fire so the logical question is why produce a loss leader at that stage? It seems Amazon assumes customers will buy significantly more content with the Fire than they bought with previous Kindles. I'm not sure why they would.
post #119 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I'm already seeing people (here and elsewhere) defend the Kindle Fire as a loss leader. Just declaring something a loss leader doesn't automatically defend any questionable financial decisions in the pricing of a product.

And more to the point, Amazon already had a lot of Kindle users out there prior to the Fire so you have to question if the costs of selling something like the Fire really will be offset by sales of content. They were already making money off the content without the Fire so the logical question is why produce a loss leader at that stage? It seems Amazon assumes customers will buy significantly more content with the Fire than they bought with previous Kindles. I'm not sure why they would.

Let's see. Speculation about the numbers of Kindle Fires sold is to be ridiculed due to the lack of actual numbers, but the fact that Amazon is losing money on each Kindle Fire sold based on an estimate from iSupply is gospel.
post #120 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

why would you be worried anyway? apple is not the 'underdog' or even the 'misfit' anymore. it is the new Disney and HP

How about the new Exxon and GM?
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