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MasterCard acknowledges it needs Apple to bring NFC payments into the mainstream - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I like tech as much as the next guy but this is going too far in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why do you feel that way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I like to tip my hair dresser with a fiver, the box boy with pocket change and the beggar on the street with a single. The closer we get to all electronic payments the more these less priveleged among us will suffer. That among other objections. I'll elaborate later.

Allow me to elaborate for you....

He really doesn't want to get all that sparkly stuff all over his iPhone when he sticks it in some dancer's cleavage.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #42 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post


If I had the contactless payment available by just swiping the phone, I could just leave everything at home but the phone. The only places off hand that didn't have Paypass were full service restaurants (eg not McDonalds.

Do you carry a driver's license?
post #43 of 64
No way I'd have my CR CD info on my iPhone.
Convenient for the CC companies, but scary for my security.
post #44 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by pika2000 View Post

Need Apple? Personally, retailer support is more important. What's the point of NFC if I can only use it on certain few retailers, regardless whether I have an Apple device or not? Have everything, including public transportation, ATMs, vending machines, retailers, grocery stores, ticket booths, all use the same standard, then NFC will gain traction. Until then, it's easier to swipe my credit card.

Most modern credit card readers have NFC receivers built into them already. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which standard is used as long as the receiver can interpret it. This is analogous to ATM networks and credit card 'networks'.

The biggest delay thus far has been getting device makers to adopt this technology.

I believe Apple is waiting for a critical mass point when it can just use its own iTunes back end for NFC transactions. They currently process millions of transactions a day through digital purchases and purchases made in their own retail stores. They would see a huge increase (10 times) if they began processing NFC transactions also.

Then the question becomes, How long before they start up their own bank / credit card? All those iTunes transactions cost money when they're made through credit cards. Apple could start saving money if they had their own bank accounts to pull the money from.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

No way I'd have my CR CD info on my iPhone.
Convenient for the CC companies, but scary for my security.


Why?

People have always carried wallets with all the same information contained within (and probably more). Yet it was never an issue before.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Then the question becomes, How long before they start up their own bank / credit card? All those iTunes transactions cost money when they're made through credit cards. Apple could start saving money if they had their own bank accounts to pull the money from.

I suspect they have enough cash to start up their own bank tomorrow!
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty of Bath View Post

Retailers want to take your money as fast as possible, what they ...

Use cash and there are no merchant fees, doesn't work online of course.

Cash handling isn't cost free, not even for a small business:

for a small business there's the time used in the employee counting and sorting the cash then taking it to the bank. There's also the risk of employee theft.

With large amounts, there's the additional cost of secure storage and transportation.

Therefore it's conceivable that it can be cheaper and faster for businesses to accept electronic payments than cash, even when you factor in merchant fees.
post #48 of 64
We've a customer that's replacing their aging PIN card readers and the new ones come with NFC. And since they need to get re-accredation with their Bank they're including the contactless tests.
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

Cash handling isn't cost free, not even for a small business:

for a small business there's the time used in the employee counting and sorting the cash then taking it to the bank. There's also the risk of employee theft.

With large amounts, there's the additional cost of secure storage and transportation.

Therefore it's conceivable that it can be cheaper and faster for businesses to accept electronic payments than cash, even when you factor in merchant fees.

Absolutely and I know from our retail customers (supermarkets) that cash transactions costs them more than card transactions.
post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

<<<Google had originally negotiated to partner with eBay to handle its Google Checkout/Wallet service, but during negotiations with its PayPal executive Osama Bedier, Google offered him a job instead and abandoned plans to partner with eBay, using Bedier to build a competing system for Google instead, using his knowledge of eBay's future plans.

PayPal subsequently sued Google over misappropriation of trade secrets and breach of fiduciary duty, and banned Google Wallet as a form of payment on eBay. >>>
\t
Sounds familiar?! Snake in the grass did the same to Apple with the iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Can't Apple lawyers just use this in courts over Google's Android and say to the court it is their "Modus Operandi"?

This is what caused my jaw to drop. Though this a much more brazen approach.
post #51 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Allow me to elaborate for you....

He really doesn't want to get all that sparkly stuff all over his iPhone when he sticks it in some dancer's cleavage.

Just swipe your phone over a pastie to pay for a dance. Or you can slide your card down the crack if you have a credit card. Surely the Japanese have been doing that for years.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Most modern credit card readers have NFC receivers built into them already. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which standard is used as long as the receiver can interpret it. This is analogous to ATM networks and credit card 'networks'.

I didn't know NFC was already built in to most CC readers. I've seen some with the older RFID card pass, but not specifically with NFC tech.


Quote:
=mjtomlin;2034830I believe Apple is waiting for a critical mass point when it can just use its own iTunes back end for NFC transactions. They currently process millions of transactions a day through digital purchases and purchases made in their own retail stores. They would see a huge increase (10 times) if they began processing NFC transactions also.

Then the question becomes, How long before they start up their own bank / credit card? All those iTunes transactions cost money when they're made through credit cards. Apple could start saving money if they had their own bank accounts to pull the money from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

I suspect they have enough cash to start up their own bank tomorrow!

We've talked about that before. They have the ecosystem, they have the money, the have everything they need to be the future of digital payments. It wouldn't be too hard to let you make automatic payments and deposits to your account. You might even be able to earn iTunes Store points for free content by using their service.

PS: Pointless facts: there are only 24 countries in the world that have a GDP higher than Apple's market value and only 56 whose GDP was higher than Apple's revenue for 2011.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

I'm gonna have my wallet wherever I go normally. I don't see it being any more convenient than using a credit card.

The only places this would matter are at the beach, a pool, hockey practice, etc. but for 95% other times, the whole card-swipe is pretty good.

So you're safer with your iPhone at the beach/ pool than with a plastic card?

Strange.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #54 of 64
This is the biggest hint to date that Apple is going to make a huge splash in the NFC market.

My theory is an Apple-made device given to retailers for free; think of a device half the size of an Apple TV that sits next to the current VeriSign terminals, with built-in wireless, Ethernet, and RJ-45 ports (those old school mom-and-pops only have dial-up).

Your iTunes account is instantly debited, but you can also link your bank/PayPal/credit card accounts to the Apple-made NFC app on your phone.

Of course, I don't know anyone that works Apple. Just want to make that clear.
post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sorry Zach I just realized I was living in an parallel universe that wasn't connected to your elitist cashless society. Whatever... I can accept your payment to support my charitable organizations in what ever method you wish to contribute. We accept credit cards, PayPal, wire transfer, cash, check, chickens, etc, please pm me for available participation programs.

lol

Elitist? Not really. Pretty much everyone I know does the same. Obviously you missed my point. Those already doing everything electronically will continue to do so, it will simply become more convenient. More people may join the electronic bandwagon but that doesn't mean they won't tip their hairdresser or make charitable contributions when they see fit.

As for my charitable contributions, I give back where / when / how I see fit. Typically those contributions involve electronic transfer as well.

15" MB Pro Early 2011 (2.0 i7 8GB RAM 240 SSD); ATV 3; iPad 3 (32GB, VZW Black); iPhone 4S (16GB AT&T Black); Airport Extreme (2011)

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15" MB Pro Early 2011 (2.0 i7 8GB RAM 240 SSD); ATV 3; iPad 3 (32GB, VZW Black); iPhone 4S (16GB AT&T Black); Airport Extreme (2011)

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post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by pika2000 View Post

Need Apple? Personally, retailer support is more important. What's the point of NFC if I can only use it on certain few retailers, regardless whether I have an Apple device or not? Have everything, including public transportation, ATMs, vending machines, retailers, grocery stores, ticket booths, all use the same standard, then NFC will gain traction. Until then, it's easier to swipe my credit card.

For retailers, they generally use whatever their merchant services ie. bank provides to them in the forms of terminals. In Australia anyway, they've had the proprietary Australia-only EFTPOS system for decades now in addition to Credit and Debit Visa/Master etc. So a long time ago terminals were standardised. Now I notice in the past five years they've all switched to GSM ie. wireless terminals... Again fairly standardised, updated with GSM and no phone line needed plus "smart chips" and that stuff.

I've noticed PayPass popping up here and there but it would take the bank to deploy, through their merchant services, the new terminals. Heck, even the taxi I took last week had it, he was tapping the terminal and was like WTF? No NFC? (well, not in so many words).

Anyone that works in retail knows the terminals are critical but also something you don't wrack your brain about. Call the bank merchant services, if you're happy with their fees or whatever, okay, send em' over. Unless they are charging more for NFC terminals I don't see why a retailer wouldn't take them.

For the CONSUMER though I am not sold on the security. In Australia any purchase under $100 (at least for one of the big bank's NFC Visa Debit) is totally automatic like a mass transit card or something. No signature, pin, whatever required.

If you lost your card... That's why I generally use the proprietary EFTPOS system because a pin is always required for all transactions. I also like it because the amounts are reflected straight away in your online banking list, rather than the credit card which spools transactions and takes days to show up in your online transaction list.

I also have a regular MasterCard credit card and at least some times the cashier will look at the signature.

NFC, particularly in Asia, where cash is still king (like you wouldn't believe), to succeed, has to address the security issues above, and the bank merchant services have to offer attractive packages for it... (Most of the reasons why Asian retailers in Asia and the West prefer cash is because of tax reasons, mistrust, and avoiding the 3% commission or whatever that Visa/Master/banks take on each sale... Never mind that the terminals are provided and serviced by the banks, provides convenience to customers and reduces the massive amount of time needed to count and bank cash and coins... Not fun, in a short stint it was 10pm and I had 15,000 in cash to count, by 11pm I had barely made any progress... But still, nothing gets most SME Asian business owners off like cash in hand, and a customer paying lump sums in cash)
post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I didn't know NFC was already built in to most CC readers. I've seen some with the older RFID card pass, but not specifically with NFC tech.

We've talked about that before. They have the ecosystem, they have the money, the have everything they need to be the future of digital payments. It wouldn't be too hard to let you make automatic payments and deposits to your account. You might even be able to earn iTunes Store points for free content by using their service.

PS: Pointless facts: there are only 24 countries in the world that have a GDP higher than Apple's market value and only 56 whose GDP was higher than Apple's revenue for 2011.

I've said it before, Apple can get a 1 trillion USD (or Euro) loan tomorrow if they wanted it. Or, with 100 billion in cash, they could easily become a 1 trillion USD bank in a few years based on fractional reserve (or whatever else someone pointed out before since I don't know all the banking terms)... But Apple could be loaning out hundreds of billions in a week if they wanted to, that's for very sure.

Not that Apple will do this, but their financial weight is almost unfathomable.

Ironically it is not this but the ubiquity of iPhone that is lusted after by NFC proponents. And the fact that once Apple does it you are guaranteed every other phone manufacturer will do it.

It's close, but again, it will take Apple to "do it right"... Meaning it could be tomorrow, next year, or never.
post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Ironically it is not this but the ubiquity of iPhone that is lusted after by NFC proponents. And the fact that once Apple does it you are guaranteed every other phone manufacturer will do it.

Yeah, but will they actually DO it, or will they go off and do their own thing that is completely incompatible with what Apple did?

NFC would be neat, but I don't want it becoming another iChat… or another FaceTime… or another anything where Apple picked a standard and everyone ignored it…

Personally, I don't like credit cards. I don't like the digitization of my money. I prefer physical bills (coins suck, obviously. Do away with the penny.) more than anything, but I hate carrying a wallet. If this can function as a debit card, I'd be interested. If it's an interest-based payment system, count me out.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Allow me to elaborate for you....

He really doesn't want to get all that sparkly stuff all over his iPhone when he sticks it in some dancer's cleavage.

As I recall the cleavage is not always where you put in (the dollar bill, that is). But who knows, I was always young and drunk in the few occasions I patronised such sinful places...
post #60 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Or you can slide your card down the crack if you have a credit card. Surely the Japanese have been doing that for years.

Yah, they don't even need real humans anymore for this kind of stuff. On to the next level already.
post #61 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by wurm5150 View Post

who the hell has 40 cards? (besides you)..

Ditto!
post #62 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Why?

People have always carried wallets with all the same information contained within (and probably more). Yet it was never an issue before.

Because in order to get that information out of your wallet without your permission, I have to go up to you and hit you over the head, or at least point a gun at you.

If you keep it on an always-connected internet device, all I have to do is hack that device - and if it's the same device millions of other people have, I can probably hack their devices too. I don't have to physically even see you to go that route.

But if I want to go the up close and personal route, NFC lets me see what's in your wallet or on your phone without hitting you - I only have to get close to you. You'll never know your pocket's been picked.

I know you probably missed the security demo the other day, but it's easy to read a NFC card. Now, it uses a one-time CVV number - but I don't need that if I've got a card writer - I can just stick your card number and expiration date on another card with a magstripe, and use it like that. I can even stick it on a card with my name on it.

NFC solves a problem that doesn't exist, and creates LOTS of new problems. I see no reason to EVER use it.

Oh, and the chip-and-pin stuff in Europe? The banks claim it's unhackable. But it's been hacked - and if you're the lucky one whose account gets cleaned out, forget getting any of your money back - unlike credit cards, the "unhackable" claim lets the bank off the hook.

For the customer, the magstripe is the safest thing going. The card can't be remotely read, it has to be touched. And the weaknesses are well known, so the banks are required to reimburse losses when the security fails. The new technologies are no more secure, in many cases less so. But they're FAR more secure for the banks, since it's the customer who will be on the hook.
post #63 of 64
If Apple pushes NFC it will become commonplace overnight.

The iPhone would be a great vehicle for bringing NFC to the masses.

Android has had NFC in the Nexus S since the end of 2010 and it still hasn't advanced the cause.
post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah, but will they actually DO it, or will they go off and do their own thing that is completely incompatible with what Apple did?

NFC would be neat, but I don't want it becoming another iChat or another FaceTime or another anything where Apple picked a standard and everyone ignored it

Personally, I don't like credit cards. I don't like the digitization of my money. I prefer physical bills (coins suck, obviously. Do away with the penny.) more than anything, but I hate carrying a wallet. If this can function as a debit card, I'd be interested. If it's an interest-based payment system, count me out.

I did not want to use credit cards either because I feared that somebody is using the data to buy some expensive stuff. Then I found a certain ewallet where you can use digital credit cards that create new numbders etc. after every purchase. Just a fyi that it's indeed possible.
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