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Motorola seeking 2.25% of Apple's sales for standard-essential patent license - Page 4

post #121 of 140
2/5/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Will be announced at the Super Bowl with an ad. expect weeping.

The rumor was for an Apple TV announcement but this latest leak makes more sense

Ohh...

I like that... Why 2012 won't be like any other year -- it will be the year of the...
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #122 of 140
2/5/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

IIRC, that's the settlement Apple made with Nokia, agreeing to give a percentage of iPhone sales revenue to them in exchange for use of Nokia's IP.

I thought the Apple/Nokia agreement is all just rumor and heresay with nobody really knowing the details? Sort of like the agreements MS has. Everyone keeps throwing around figures like $5-$15 per phone but I've never seen any of that confirmed.

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post #123 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

I thought the Apple/Nokia agreement is all just rumor and heresay with nobody really knowing the details? Sort of like the agreements MS has. Everyone keeps throwing around figures like $5-$15 per phone but I've never seen any of that confirmed.

AI ran an article on that here:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ith_apple.html

Based on the one-time royalty payment of Euro 430 that was publicly reported, Apple is probably paying a bit less than 1% of their iPhone sales revenues ( and probably 3G iPad sales) as an on-going license fee to Nokia. Actually a pretty good deal for Apple since there was no way they were going to successfully argue that they weren't using Nokia's IP without permission (stealing?).

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #124 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

That is the difference between FRAND based patents that form a standard and those patents that do not form a standard but can be just as hard to design around.

Designs "patents" can be easily worked around. With the current rules, as long as one characteristic of a "patent" is not met, it isnt infringing.

Standard bearing patents are extremely hard to work around as it is dealing with the actual technology itself.

This is why design "patents" dont get the same weight as regular and real patents. Hence, why Apple just likes to call foul on the technicality of the patents not on its substance.

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #125 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

IIRC, that's the settlement Apple made with Nokia, agreeing to give a percentage of iPhone sales revenue to them in exchange for use of Nokia's IP.

You have a copy of the agreement?

There was a $600 million payment that showed up in Nokia's books, how do you know it wasn't a one off?

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #126 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

There was a $600 million payment that showed up in Nokia's books, how do you know it wasn't a one off?

I believe it probably wasn't. Are you of the opinion it was a one-time payment with no ongoing royalties? If so you are almost certainly wrong.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #127 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Hence, why Apple just likes to call foul on the technicality of the patents not on its substance.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Could you explain?
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post #128 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:22pm
Apple can't argue they aren't using Moto's IP since it's deemed an essential standard, meaning the iPhone couldn't operate without it. Apple is arguing other points instead.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #129 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple can't argue they aren't using Moto's IP since it's deemed an essential standard, meaning the iPhone couldn't operate without it. Apple is arguing other points instead.

Oh I see. Or rather I see the meaning, but not the relevance to the argument. Apple have disputed some patents on validity, and this one on terms (not really a technicality either). That doesn't seem to reflect in any way on their preferences - it just indicates what they see wrong with this case.
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post #130 of 140
2/5/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Oh I see. Or rather I see the meaning, but not the relevance to the argument. Apple have disputed some patents on validity, and this one on terms (not really a technicality either). That doesn't seem to reflect in any way on their preferences - it just indicates what they see wrong with this case.

I don't see the relevance either.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #131 of 140
2/5/12 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Appeals to authority are not a good way to prove a point. They are based, in essence, on faith, rather than on fact.

I might believe Muller if he cites facts for his opinion. But unless he does, you trust that he is correct.

Maybe he is. But I have less than full faith.

It is, of course, relevant when he clearly knows somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 times as much about patent law and licensing as you do. Given the choice between believing him and believing you, anyone in their right mind would believe him before you.
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post #132 of 140
2/5/12 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It is, of course, relevant when he clearly knows somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 times as much about patent law and licensing as you do. Given the choice between believing him and believing you, anyone in their right mind would believe him before you.


"Muller said it.
I believe it.
And that's it."


Got it.
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post #133 of 140
2/6/12 at 12:18am
I'm with Barrak Obama on this one "Patient reform" as he has mentioned in the past
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post #134 of 140
2/6/12 at 2:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I believe it probably wasn't. Are you of the opinion it was a one-time payment with no ongoing royalties? If so you are almost certainly wrong.

I'm of the opinion that no-one knows, apart from a select few people at Apple and Nokia.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #135 of 140
2/6/12 at 2:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

"Muller said it.
I believe it.
And that's it."


Got it.

People in courts said it.

Mueller reported it

It forms part of the information required upon which to base a belief.

Get it?

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #136 of 140
2/6/12 at 3:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I'm of the opinion that no-one knows, apart from a select few people at Apple and Nokia.

Perhaps you should reconsider your opinion then. I figured you were arguing just to argue and somewhat surprised you weren't aware of this. It was widely reported, even by AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

There was a $600 million payment that showed up in Nokia's books, how do you know it wasn't a one off?

From Nokia's press release on the settlement: "...The financial structure of the agreement consists of a one-time payment payable by Apple and on-going royalties to be paid by Apple to Nokia for the term of the agreement..."
http://press.nokia.com/2011/06/14/no...nt-with-apple/

While the details are unpublished, the basic settlement terms are very public.
They include the one-time payment and on-going royalties to use Nokia's IP as well as granting a license to Nokia for some of Apple's patents, including even some "innovations that make the iPhone unique" as Apple put it.

Apple confirmed that part at AllThingsD.
“Apple and Nokia have agreed to drop all of our current lawsuits and enter into a license covering some of each others’ patents, but not the majority of the innovations that make the iPhone unique,” the company said. “We’re glad to put this behind us and get back to focusing on our respective businesses.”

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #137 of 140
2/6/12 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

People in courts said it.

Mueller reported it

It forms part of the information required upon which to base a belief.

Get it?

Mueller, while his opinions are not always agreeable, makes a clear distinction between what he reports directly from the court (and filings) and his own analysis. All to say, I consider him to be a credible source.
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post #138 of 140
2/6/12 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

You have a copy of the agreement?

There was a $600 million payment that showed up in Nokia's books, how do you know it wasn't a one off?

Wasn't that payment a bribe from Apple to make sure Nokia uses Windows Phone instead of Android?

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post #139 of 140
2/6/12 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

People in courts said it.

Mueller reported it

It forms part of the information required upon which to base a belief.

Get it?

Umm, no. We are not talking about what anybody said in court. Thanks.
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post #140 of 140
2/7/12 at 2:44pm
Apparently the 2.25% licensing rate that Moto is asking from Apple is in fact their standard FRAND rate according to Florian Mueller at FOSSPatents. That might make Apple's negotiations just a bit more difficult since it now appears to be fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory if the reports are accurate.

"Motorola has consistently demanded a royalty to the tune of 2.25% of Microsoft's sales of the aforementioned and other products implementing the H.264 codec. The 2.25% rate was mentioned multiple times at today's public court session by the presiding judge, Dr. Holger Kircher, as well as counsel for both parties. If that percentage sounds familiar, that's the rate MMI is also demanding from Apple for all products implementing the 3G/UMTS wireless telecommunications standard. I (Mueller) have furthermore heard from an executive of a large company in this industry (who is not affiliated in any way with Apple or Microsoft) that Motorola also declared years ago that it deemed a 2.25% royalty appropriate for its patents related to 4G/LTE."

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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