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CNN investigates Foxconn iPad factory conditions, Apple responds - Page 4

post #121 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

We should bring those jobs here to the U.S.!!!!
Apple can afford to bring those jobs here to the US. I am not faulting them for doing well..I support Apple by buying their products. But with billions in cash reserves they should bring those jobs to the U.S.

It would be nice to have the jobs in he USA but that won't happen.

It was said that she was making a dollar an hour. So how much more would the same product cost if made here in the USA? Being very conservative say 5 times as much. Who would buy the higher priced products?
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post #122 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

That is a 60 hour work week on a hourly wage. You can't compare a salary position to hourly. Some of you guys are so blinded by your love for Apple it is amusing.

Yes, FC makes products for many other companies. Those other companies are not making the demands upon FC as Apple does. This is the jest of the entire problem!

I assume you have first hand knowledge and proof of your allegations of course?
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post #123 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

That is a 60 hour work week on a hourly wage. You can't compare a salary position to hourly. Some of you guys are so blinded by your love for Apple it is amusing.

If you're going to work 60 hours per week, would you rather do it on salary or hourly? I know when I worked as hourly, I'd have LOVED 60 hours per week.

Furthermore, you're completely ignoring the fact that Apple does a better job of policing suppliers than anyone else in the industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

Yes, FC makes products for many other companies. Those other companies are not making the demands upon FC as Apple does. This is the jest of the entire problem!

Why are you making a joke of it?

Please show us evidence that other companies make fewer demands on FC than Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

Some of you guys are missing the whole point of the problem. Go read more than just one story if you want to comment on how correct this problem is. The New York Times would be a good start.

Sorry, the NYTimes stopped being responsible journalism about 3 decades ago.

Aside from that, I've read dozens of articles on the subject. Furthermore, I've traveled extensively in China. I've also purchased and sold items to China. I guarantee that I know more about the subject than you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

Would you allow you son or daughter to work in these conditions?

In a heartbeat. If I lived in China and there were no opportunities for my kids but backbreaking farm labor at $.20 per hour or a Foxconn factory job for $.80 per hour, I'd absolutely be encouraging them to take the factory job.

The problem is that you're incapable of understanding local conditions. Try traveling in China some time and see what a plum these jobs really are. That's why they have thousands of people lined up trying to get them - and even complainers like 'miss chen' don't quit and go somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

Apple and FC agreed to install nets on the outside of the buildings to stop the suicide drops!

And, yet, suicide for Foxconn workers is lower than the national average. If you want to use suicide as your metric, then Foxconn employees must be pretty happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

The main problem or complaint is that Apple puts a huge demand of FC to produce a certain # of devices a day and they demand the rock bottom price.

Evidence? Oh, yeah. You're just making things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

In other words, Apple asks the premium price of there products but fights tooth and nail to not pay anything to the suppliers. I believe that is called greed.

I believe it's called 'delusion'. On your part.

I'm sure Apple is a demanding customer, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that they're any different than anyone else. In fact, it has been established that Apple will pay for things that others will not. Apple also pays in advance - which lessens the pressure on suppliers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbook View Post

I'm all for making a profit. I'm a business owner myself, employing over 200 people. There have been many times I would have liked to purchased parts and supplies for a cheaper price but chose not to because of the negatives of doing so.

Just my .02!

First, I don't believe you're a business owner. But let's say you are. Should we take 50% of your profits and give it to your suppliers? If not, why should Apple give a portion of its profits to suppliers?
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post #124 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

...
But you can't argue and say that would hurt them...as it would not slow down sales at all. I agree it would hurt the bottom line by either raising prices slightly or lowering profit margins


slightly or lowering profit margins

Are you 10 years old or are you just totally clueless when it comes to economics and finance?
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post #125 of 148
Just watched the CNN video. "Miss Chan" is a college student slumming with the working folks. Used to see a couple like that - whining on the shop floor every summer. Usually, daddy found them a tidier place to work.
post #126 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ4Ev3r View Post

Apple is a business first and foremost as I said Apple's responsibility and ability to IMPROVE WORKING CONDITIONS in other lands like China is extremely LIMITED--these stupid media is actually BARKING ON THE WRONG TREE--they should bark on the Chinese government to LEGISLATE stronger LAWS TO PROTECT THEIR OWN CITIZENS! Since Apple contributes gazillions of dollars to the Chinese economy, so the CHINESE GOVERNMENT in turn should ensure that their citizens are well-protected and NOT exploited!

Yep, but it wasn't really Nikes responsibility to make sure their sneakers weren't made by child labor either, but I'm glad they put a stop to it, and if Apple end up forcing Chinese suppliers to give their workers a better deal, I'll be happy about that too (nb: I'll happily pay more for my Apple products if that is needed to make it happen).

Apples ability to change working practices in other countries is huge. If they tell Foxconn to change a practice or they will take their business to someone else who will follow Apples guidance, Foxconn will change.

Governments don't always need to legislate good behavior - everyone can take part in it.
post #127 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eideard View Post

Just watched the CNN video. "Miss Chan" is a college student slumming with the working folks. Used to see a couple like that - whining on the shop floor every summer. Usually, daddy found them a tidier place to work.

Keep the educated people away from the workers who don't know better. And while we're at it, make sure to filter out internet content relating to human rights and labour laws. Ignorance is what greases the machine.
 
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post #128 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by palomine View Post

I bet you aren't ALLOWED to live in a ramshackle hut either. Building codes. Unless you camp out in the woods. But then you'd be breaking more laws somehow. It costs a lot more to live in an industrialized country...with building codes. I bet when you figure it all up the working poor here have a similar proportion of 'disposable' income.

I am really suspicious of this sudden interest in the 'poor Chinese worker'j.
A lot of you want to tell Apple what to do or where to go with their pile o cash. The 'give us a dividend dammit!' crowd is getting mighty loud.

How do you know what plans Apple might have that involve needing every penny of that money? Suppose they did bring back some jobs, would you shut up then? My god that money is burning a hole in other people's pockets!

Just watch. Apple will do something amazing again. WHEN the time is right.

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post #129 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Yep, but it wasn't really Nikes responsibility to make sure their sneakers weren't made by child labor either, but I'm glad they put a stop to it, and if Apple end up forcing Chinese suppliers to give their workers a better deal, I'll be happy about that too (nb: I'll happily pay more for my Apple products if that is needed to make it happen).

Apples ability to change working practices in other countries is huge. If they tell Foxconn to change a practice or they will take their business to someone else who will follow Apples guidance, Foxconn will change.

Governments don't always need to legislate good behavior - everyone can take part in it.

That's the point--IF there is no legal consequence to it, FOXCONN will NOT do anything at all--that is why laws exist to DETER crimes...laws are made to CHANGE negative behaviours--and even if Apple tells FOXCONN to shape up, IF Foxconn knows there is no existing Chinese LABOR LAW violations for it...do you think they will BOTHER TO CHANGE??? NOT AT ALL!!!
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My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
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post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Yes, how horrible, a 60 hour work week! I must be a vile animal for looking at all of the available facts and noticing that the working conditions are just fine. Clearly, an informed "animal" is much more enlightened than an ignorant liberal such as yourself.

If I'm an "animal", what does that make Apple and yourself? You are the one who is financing such horrid work conditions with all of your Apple purchases and Apple is the one who is paying billions to Foxconn so that they can "abuse" their slave labor.

You should go out and protest in front of an Apple store sometime, to show your true outrage. I don't contract any of those workers, Apple contracts Foxconn, which in turn hires the workers.

Hypocrite much?

Gee, you missed the point, homeboy. I did feel bad after saying that, because it's an insult to animals, so my apologies to them.

I was referring to your usual scurrilous tone and contempt for civil discourse, which I know is meant to reflect badly on those who use this forum. What bothers me most is that international readers who don't get the cynicism of your program just conclude that Americans are pigs. Oops, there I did it again. Sorry, pigs.
post #131 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ4Ev3r View Post

That's the point--IF there is no legal consequence to it, FOXCONN will NOT do anything at all--that is why laws exist to DETER crimes...laws are made to CHANGE negative behaviours--and even if Apple tells FOXCONN to shape up, IF Foxconn knows there is no existing Chinese LABOR LAW violations for it...do you think they will BOTHER TO CHANGE??? NOT AT ALL!!!

If Apple tells them to do it, yes, I guarantee they will change. If it's change or lose the contract, they will unquestionably change. I think you underestimate how much power a company the size of Apple has over it's suppliers.
post #132 of 148
Quote:
I bet you get more than 83c an hour though, which is what she gets.
$1 an hour would constitute 17% pay rise over her actual wage

And her 83c per hour @ 6 days per week seems to be just above the national average for similar jobs in the entire country. They aren't being underpaid or overworked compared to others in their country.
post #133 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

I disagree....for an American company they should base their jobs in the US. It does everything for them and the US......As far as profit goes. Apple has more cash than they know what to do with. At some point American corporations as a whole need to stop offshoring jobs. I do not fault Apple or any other copr for doing well. But you can't argue and say that would hurt them...as it would not slow down sales at all. I agree it would hurt the bottom line by either raising prices slightly or lowering profit margins

You'd make Norma Rae proud.

But it's not gonna happen.

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post #134 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

We should bring those jobs here to the U.S.!!!!
Apple can afford to bring those jobs here to the US. I am not faulting them for doing well..I support Apple by buying their products. But with billions in cash reserves they should bring those jobs to the U.S.

You show a complete lack of understanding of the supply chain in the electronics business, as well as overhead costs for infrastructure. Since Apple uses outside contractors, it would be up to those same type of contractors to determine that the US was an economically viable place to open up shop and that just is not the case. Period.
post #135 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

These problems are real, and they can be addressed, and they NEED to be addressed (better), and Apple hasnt solved them yet. Apple never pretended to, and nobody inside or outside Apple thinks they have.

What Apple does have is a true commitment (not PR) on these problems, and a record of improvement. Its not enough of course, and CNNs ad-baiting may have one good side-effect if it pushes for change faster.

Or, CNNs ad-baiting could simply let all the non-Apple companies off the hook, making the problem worse and the solutions slower, for millions of people. Apple, by all evidence, is the BEST major electronics company in this regard. When you report on a problem, you should contrast those who are solving the problem with those who are not; instead, the media seems to want everyone to boycott* those who are solving the problem, and buy from other companies who are actually worse.

* Nah, they just want to sell ads. Journalism is dead.

Before moving o/s and working for CNN Stan Grant was the presenter on an evening tabloid "news" program here in Australia. He has done some decent journalism on public broadcasters like SBS and the ABC, but it's not unusual to see him doing this kind of story, unfortunately.
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post #136 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

I didn't know that AI was available in China.

It seems there are alot of things that you don't know.
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post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Gee, you missed the point, homeboy. I did feel bad after saying that, because it's an insult to animals, so my apologies to them.

I was referring to your usual scurrilous tone and contempt for civil discourse, which I know is meant to reflect badly on those who use this forum. What bothers me most is that international readers who don't get the cynicism of your program just conclude that Americans are pigs. Oops, there I did it again. Sorry, pigs.

To be honest, I'd rather be an intelligent and informed pig wallowing in 5 feet of mud as opposed to a liberal. My apologies to all cockroaches out there.
post #138 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

If Apple tells them to do it, yes, I guarantee they will change. If it's change or lose the contract, they will unquestionably change. I think you underestimate how much power a company the size of Apple has over it's suppliers.

Have you read Tim Cook's email and Apple's commitment regarding 'suppliers' responsibility'--well APPLE has been doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE FOR A COMPANY TO DO--and yet FOXCONN IS STILL guilty of exploitation--it will continue to do so, UNLESS THERE IS a genuine LEGAL CONSEQUENCE FOR FOXCONN from the CHINESE government!

Foxconn knows that Apple totally relies on them for manufacturing--so Foxconn has power over Apple right now...ONLY when Apple has an ALTERNATIVE way of manufacturing their products, that Foxconn can be controlled by Apple...right now the upper hand is Foxconn. and only the Chinese government can straighten Foxconn out!
Quote:
My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
Reply
Quote:
My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
Reply
post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ4Ev3r View Post

Have you read Tim Cook's email and Apple's commitment regarding 'suppliers' responsibility'--well APPLE has been doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE FOR A COMPANY TO DO--and yet FOXCONN IS STILL guilty of exploitation--it will continue to do so, UNLESS THERE IS a genuine LEGAL CONSEQUENCE FOR FOXCONN from the CHINESE government!

Foxconn knows that Apple totally relies on them for manufacturing--so Foxconn has power over Apple right now...ONLY when Apple has an ALTERNATIVE way of manufacturing their products, that Foxconn can be controlled by Apple...right now the upper hand is Foxconn. and only the Chinese government can straighten Foxconn out!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Good points though.
post #140 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

No, it's what Americans who are addicted to money do. More civilized countries such as those in Scandinavia work 35 hours a week so that they can actually live a normal life and enjoy it. Sure they have less money but they have a much higher quality of life. Only those brainwashed into thinking life is all about work and material gain would work 60 hours a week. If you work that much, you're a prisoner, whether you admit it or not.

Agree 6000%. Many people in the US don't even understand the meaning of quality of life.
post #141 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

No, it's what Americans who are addicted to money do. More civilized countries such as those in Scandinavia work 35 hours a week so that they can actually live a normal life and enjoy it. Sure they have less money but they have a much higher quality of life. Only those brainwashed into thinking life is all about work and material gain would work 60 hours a week. If you work that much, you're a prisoner, whether you admit it or not.

This could be an interesting debate. Do we define our purpose to make for a more enjoyable life for ourselves or are we working as whole for something greater for the species. Surely there are some who would say that 35 hours a week is excessive and it's easy to argue that the closer you get to not working (when you are capable) the more egocentric you are.

Still, we need to define working. Can you not have a paying job and still be working? Do we consider Van Gogh as working on his art/passion/insanity in his later life when he was painting or is that his entertainment? Are aspiring writing working or playing? I think it's hard to say but I do think it's wrong to say that one culture is better or worse than another because they are different. Saying Americans addicted to money seems to be fall into that category simply because the normal work day is 7 hours instead of 8. In any case it can't be determined by that one metric.

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post #142 of 148
Not making light of any of the problems with chinese workers, But where is Foxconns culpability and the China's responcibiliy in all of this? Its pile on Apple time, it seems to be the fashion nowadays!!

Why dont we point the finger at the others MAJOR COMPANIES THAT HAVE PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED AT FOXCONN?

LIKE THESE WELL KNOWN CORPORATIONS:

Foxconn manufactures products for companies including:
(country of headquarters in parentheses)
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)[27]
Amazon.com (United States)[28]
Apple Inc. (United States)[29]
ASRock (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Asus (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Barnes & Noble (United States)[citation needed]
Cisco (United States)[30]
Dell (United States)[31]
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[32]
Intel (United States)[33]
IBM (United States)[citation needed]
Lenovo (China)[citation needed]
Microsoft (United States)[34]
MSI (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Motorola (United States)[31]
Netgear (United States)[citation needed]
Nintendo (Japan)[35]
Nokia (Finland)[29]
Panasonic (Japan)[citation needed]
Samsung (South Korea)[36]
Sharp (Japan)[citation needed]
Sony (Japan)[37]
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[38]
Vizio (United States)[39]


One of foxconn's plants to have problems with suicide attempts was a factory making X Boxes. Where is microsoft in this. Where are the articles denegrating microsoft?

Look at the above list and you will find that there are a ton of asian companies also using foxconn.
Why arent they being publicly maligned?

Im so sick of this one-sided myopic view of a problem.

The fact is that not one of the major corporations listed above EXCEPT Apple do anything about this.
Apple has done more to help and at least try than all of the rest of the above companies combined.
post #143 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Not making light of any of the problems with chinese workers, But where is Foxconns culpability and the China's responcibiliy in all of this? Its pile on Apple time, it seems to be the fashion nowadays!!

...
The fact is that not one of the major corporations listed above EXCEPT Apple do anything about this.
Apple has done more to help and at least try than all of the rest of the above companies combined.

Quite right too that Apple should lead the way, since Apple is the richest and best run company on the list. What we don't need is a bunch of pious prannies from the media putting them down for it.
post #144 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eideard View Post

Just watched the CNN video. "Miss Chan" is a college student slumming with the working folks. Used to see a couple like that - whining on the shop floor every summer. Usually, daddy found them a tidier place to work.

I can guarantee that in any workplace, anywhere on Earth, that you'd find a "Miss Chen" who'd whine about conditions.

Now what will 80c buy in China?

How much does food cost there?

University fees, textbooks, houses and land, clothing, electricity, etc, etc, ad infinintum.

$1 in America is not the same as $1 in China.
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post #145 of 148
Apple deserves the scrutiny.

They have 100% of their production in China and a majority of their production done by one company, Foxconn.

Not only that, they had the most profits out of all the tech companies by taking advantage of the situation in China. They deserve to get scrutinized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Apple has done more to help and at least try than all of the rest of the above companies combined.

You dont know that. Apple likes to publically boast about their situation.

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post #146 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Not only that, they had the most profits out of all the tech companies by taking advantage of the situation in China.

This will be fun. Defend this implication that other tech companies make less money because they choose to hire more expensive laborers in other countries.

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post #147 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

Now compare cost of living in China with that in the U.S., say in California, New York or Rhode Island.

We can compare the cost of Apple products:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-pay-70pc.html

Wages at Foxconn were 900 renmibi per month and changed to 2,000 renmibi per month.

An iPad in China costs 3,688 renmibi.

US minimum wage is around $7 per hour so for a 60 hour week would amount to $1680 per month.

An iPad in the US costs $499.

So an iPad in China costs 1.5x their monthly salary and an iPad in the US costs about 0.3x their monthly salary.

Say that each puts away 10% per month to save up for an iPad, the Chinese worker has to save up for 18 months and the US worker has to save up for 3 months.

Some other salary figures are noted here, some lower than RMB 2,000/m:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=119

The lowest salary appears to be in Chongqing at RMB 710-850 per month:

http://understand-china.com/?manufac...ng-labor-costs

The lowest US salary is probably around $5/hour.

Now let's say that Apple gives each employee that works on their products a 100% bonus. Not all 500k workers will work on Apple products but say 100k. 100k x RMB 2000 ($317) x 12 months = $380m per year. This allows their own workers to save up for an iPad in 9 months, which is at least within the yearly product cycle. Give them a similar discount to US employees and it's even sooner.

In leading by example (which I have no doubt they are already doing), this will encourage other manufacturers to offer the same incentives.
post #148 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I bet you get more than 83c an hour though, which is what she gets.

And I bet my cost of living is far higher than hers. How much her income translates to in American currency is a non sequitur unless you can also produce figures showing the cost of living in her local economy.
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