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CNN investigates Foxconn iPad factory conditions, Apple responds - Page 2

post #41 of 148
It's a good distraction to focus on someone else. I live in southern Oregon and a company called CertainTeed just advertised for some production jobs. The ad said: Temporary full time positions, day or night shifts available. No benefits and the shifts are 12 hours. In a area where unemployment is 10% I guess you can make this work. I am going to speculate that if unemployment was 6% they would probably at least offer 8 hour shifts. If this job does not appeal to you there are "on call" dishwasher jobs also. I guess all those people who say don't bad mouth America have a few things to be touchy about. Got to run I have to go out an buy a new $19 DVD player. Mine has dust on it.
post #42 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.


WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
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post #43 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The difference is Foxconn workers have the option to leave when they want. Of course, having the option doesn't mean it's a viable one. I certainly will never understand how poor life must be for these people that they choose to work at Foxconn.

Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).

I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...
 
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post #44 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.

That's a load of baloney.
post #45 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ4Ev3r View Post

WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?

Ask CNN and all these other outlets that have only started reporting on this nonsense since Apple's last earnings call. They seem to know why better than anyone else.

Of course, everyone else doesn't believe such foolish stuff, so 'better' is relative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

That's a load of baloney.

Apparently the bleeding sarcasm didn't seep through.

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post #46 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.

I think mindshare is the most important factor here. Even before the iPad, iPhone, and switch to Intel for their Macs (though I'd say after Mac OS X and the iPod) Apple was still looked upon as the company to beat in terms of HW and OS refinement. They were considered expensive, but they were considered the ones to beat. Even back in the late 90s when Apple adopted USB they weren't the first but they were the ones to adopt it across the board while dropping legacy ports which helped push the standard forward for everyone. I think that's a direct result of mindshare, not market share or cap.

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post #47 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ4Ev3r View Post

WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?

No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.

Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.
post #48 of 148
Sly as a Fox and a Conn to boot!
see what I did there?

Joking aside, someone needs to shoehorn some western working conditions in there. Most notably with the hours. I thought my 40 hour week was bad...

... at night.

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... at night.

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post #49 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Some Foxconn workers are apparently whiners. They had better get back to work so that they can get busy and assemble my iPad 3. The conditions there are just fine. So they work 60 hours? Big fucking deal, plenty of people work more than that. Some ignorant people like to mention their suicide rate, which happens to be less than the general population, that's awesome for them! Congratulations to them, they are very fortunate.

These people can also thank Foxconn that they're not working in some rice field someplace, I bet that's more of a back breaking job than working for Foxconn which also probably pays a bit more than standing in some rice field.

So in conclusion, quit your whining, get back to work and assemble my new iPad 3, comprende?

If you don't like it, then quit your job. Whining will get you nowhere.

Now that's thinking differently!
post #50 of 148
I bet Dell, HP and all the others hate hearing news like this. Apple, although using Foxconn to build their stuff, has a far better record than any of these other companies with regards to foreign working conditions.

I bet they're hoping the spotlight doesn't come their way to show how bad conditions are for their workers.

Worse yet, seeing Apple spend a couple billion to improve conditions for their workers knowing that they'll all have to follow suit and spend as well.


BTW, why does she have to work 60 hours per week? Why not hire two people and make them each work 30 hours per week? It's not like there's a shortage of workers and Foxconn can't find any additional people. I doubt she's being "forced" to work 60 hours, and she probably would prefer 60 to 30 (and half pay).

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post #51 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.

Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.

BUT the point is--why single out Apple as I indicated on my post--there are tons of Asian/American/European companies that use FOXCONN for their manufactured products--so as lawyers like to state.."what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander"--meaning everyone is EQUAL under the eyes of the law--be it beneficial or otherwise!

There should be NO prejudice or bias of one company over the others! Because all these other companies ALSO use FOXCONN! In fact there was that Microsoft complaint regarding alleged attempted Foxconn suicides, too!

I do not understand WHY fellow Americans are trying to sabotage/undermine a successful American entrepreneurial company!

BTW, Apple is NOT a lawmaking body, so their sincere attempts to IMPROVE the working conditions in China is very limited--it is still the Chinese legislative body that can issue laws protecting their citizens!
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My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

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My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
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post #52 of 148
For those trying to point out that almost every other tech company manufactures in the same factories (see the Xbox mass suicide threat) your efforts are futile. Apple has been targeted, the media has focused on them, the activists smell blood in the water. Apple is to be made an example of and the media and critics won't stop until Apple is taken down and destroyed over this. The idea is to put fear into the remaining manufacturers, to get them to tow the activist line (see Greenpeace's tactics against Apple). Out of nowhere this has become the political issues du jour. Apple will be held up for ridicule in the presidential election campaigns. Populism rules in an election year. The politicians have to have someone to blame for their failure to bring the economy back and Apple's success in spite of the economy makes them the perfect target.

So forget about listing all the companies doing the same thing. Forget about trying to point out the hypocrisy of it all. It won't work. Apple is in the cross-hairs and they WILL be made to suffer for their success. The loser/haters on the tech sites already have their marching orders and talking points.

That's how it goes in America these days. Apple really is doomed now. Just wait and watch the bloodbath.
post #53 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).

I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...

The cycle isn't continuing for everyone. The rate at which cars are being adopted over bikes and the rate at which other previously considered luxury items are becoming standard is significant. Their economy is changing. There are a lot of similarities to the US and other countries being industrialized.

We can put on our hippie hemp clothing, play with our hacky sack, and claim that no one should ever suffer for a nation to advancement and that's a great theoretical goal to aspire to but it's not realistic. If we deny these Chinese these jobs then we deny them of an option and a future for their children.

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post #54 of 148
Let Apple or any company build small factories in the U.S. and build a small # of their products here. Of course because of the higher costs to make them they will cost more. Then true humanitarians can speak with their wallets and buy American. I think the manufacturers know that we won't buy American because we are greedy and don't really give a rats ass about Chinese workers. Hey we don't even care about how badly we are treated here. Give me a break. Sorry China, we don't care, This is America. Beyond giving money to disaster relief out of guilt and embarrassment we want you to remain invisible, unless of course getting web hits to make advertising $$$$$$ works.
post #55 of 148
I'm not justifying the working conditions at Foxconn or the use of over seas labor,
but in terms the overall labor conditions and wages in Chinese manufacturing,
companies like Foxconn are at the top of the pack and the have hundreds of people lining up for these jobs.

You think the working conditions stink at electronics factories,
check out your average toy, garment, or household good factory in China.
They are much worse with even lower wages.

If your gonna get upset Apple, you might as well get pissed at every other brand that is sold at Target or Walmart.
People like to raise a stink about Apple because they are on top,
but 90% of what you own is made in China
including your pants, your shoes, your kids toys, your TV, you alarm clock, the parts in your car, your Android phone, your Windows phone, your apple juice, everything....
all under the same lousy working conditions or worse.
post #56 of 148
These problems are real, and they can be addressed, and they NEED to be addressed (better), and Apple hasn’t solved them yet. Apple never pretended to, and nobody inside or outside Apple thinks they have.

What Apple does have is a true commitment (not PR) on these problems, and a record of improvement. It’s not enough of course, and CNN’s ad-baiting may have one good side-effect if it pushes for change faster.

Or, CNN’s ad-baiting could simply let all the non-Apple companies off the hook, making the problem worse and the solutions slower, for millions of people. Apple, by all evidence, is the BEST major electronics company in this regard. When you report on a problem, you should contrast those who are solving the problem with those who are not; instead, the media seems to want everyone to boycott* those who are solving the problem, and buy from other companies who are actually worse.

* Nah, they just want to sell ads. “Journalism” is dead.
post #57 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

Now that's thinking differently!

Please don't feed the animals.
post #58 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Apple really is doomed now.

Hearing a pronouncement like that makes me all nostalgic for the thousands and thousands of times people have said that and were wrong before...
post #59 of 148
On continued bad publicity for Apple regarding poor working conditions at Foxconn factories, Apples stock was up $5.12.
post #60 of 148
So its official... Apple is the new 'Casey Anthony' vulture fest by the MSM.
post #61 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

I disagree....for an American company they should base their jobs in the US. It does everything for them and the US......As far as profit goes. Apple has more cash than they know what to do with. At some point American corporations as a whole need to stop offshoring jobs. I do not fault Apple or any other copr for doing well. But you can't argue and say that would hurt them...as it would not slow down sales at all. I agree it would hurt the bottom line by either raising prices slightly or lowering profit margins

It was in Apple's best interest to move these assembly jobs to the the US they would. If the government saw a value to these aseembly jobs - they could create a climate where supporting those assembly jobs would be in a company's best interest and they would be here. And they employ a lot of Americans (as well as other native workers in other countries as well) - perhaps they should offer jobs for Americans overseas? Because you cannot build the same assembly line operations here for anything close to the cost of building it there - that's why the assembly jobs and facilities are where they are.

And how do you support a statement like "Apple has more cash than they know what to do with"? More accurately, you might say Apple has more cash than YOU know what to do with, but you do not know what plans Apple has for that money. Just a brief burst of speculation (since it seems from their reports that a majority of it is overseas) would allow for things like, rapidly building out a larger Apple retail presence in China and India, funding additional higher level operations developments(like they do with their current partners), that will allow them to build still more innovative and disruptive devices, or building additional facilities in Israel for research, for example.

EDIT: most of these points were made previously following the original post.
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post #62 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by super8sean View Post

You say why didn't she quit? Same reason you dont quit when ur boss pisses all over you.
Its funny how people who have cushy lives can freely criticize the less fortunate. They line them up at foxconn like they are slaves and pack them in dorms with horrible living conditions afterwards. Why didn't she quit? because has to make a living dumbass!

What? Then quit and work some place else. Foxconn isn't the only company in China. This isn't Apples or any of the other companies problem... It's China that allows it. Maybe they should start there.

I also work 60+ hours a week, no OT.
post #63 of 148
60 hours a week?
That is nothing.
This entitlement mentality in America is sickening.
Most people don't work bankers hours.
post #64 of 148
Quote:
Tons of companies use Foxconn for manufacturing

When Apple speaks the whole world listens.

When Acer et al speaks nobody gives a f***.

That's the difference. Somebody has to lead and the others will follow.
post #65 of 148
It's monotonous hard labour which makes 60 hours hard.

And a majority 'get persuaded' to do more than a standard 60 hours.
post #66 of 148
Great to see CNN jump on the bandwagon. Just read their ful article, and as expected, instead of actually offering a deeper article with some real reporting, like comparing the the wages of the different manufacturing plants, how Foxconn compares to them, government responsibilities, global dynamics, and why workers like up in the thousands to work at Foxconn, we get the same superficial, 'Apple manufacturing plant' garbage which doesn't add an iota of insight or knowledge into the situation. Incredibly lazy journalism. Par for the course for CNN.

But this is absolutely scathing:

Quote:
"It's so boring, I can't bear it anymore. Everyday is like: I get off from work and I go to bed. I get up in the morning, and I go to work. It is my daily routine and I almost feel like an animal," said Ms. Chen, who aspires to become a biologist.

I assume they used the worst quotes they could get from 'Ms. Chen'. The fact that this made the cut says alot. 'Boring'? So we also expect manufacturing jobs (in China, no less) to be entertaining, dynamic, and fulfilling now? Why does this quote even deserve to be repeated, considering most people believe they have boring jobs? Oh yeah, cause she mentions she almost feels like 'an animal' (because it's a boring job) which is the sensationalism that we're looking for. Ms. Chen is saying the same thing we can expect to hear from any 18 yr old US teenager with a shitty job.

I;m not one to defend Foxconn or any of these companies, but I understand it's not as simple as people make it out to be (Move manufacturing to the US! Dictate higher wages! Stop business with Foxconn!), and these mindless articles gang-banging on Apple so as not to be left out of ad revenue don't help.
post #67 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by sblanford View Post

I put in 60 hours in my job all the time in a week. That is normal practice.

why? do you enjoy being a slave to your job?
post #68 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiospace View Post

I have to work 60 hours a week as a matter of course, receive no compensation for the overtime, no health insurance, no paid vacation, no sick leave. I hope CNN will come interview me next.

Same here, have been doing that for the last 25 years in a row. I thought this is what all diligent people do.
post #69 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by erann View Post

Same here, have been doing that for the last 25 years in a row. I thought this is what all diligent people do.

I didn't know that AI was available in China.
post #70 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

The folk in prisons have demonstrated that they "Don't play well with others" - hence, they are confined to a cell and treated like animals. Why? Becuase, left to their own devices, they act like animals. Many seem to enjoy this - because they keep going back.

You assume those in prison are actually guilty and also "don't play well with others". Many in prison have committed victimless crimes; in no way are they there due to inability to function in society. Also, there is a repeatedly-demonstrated system in this country of convicting the poor while the rich go free. That is, actually guilty or not, a poor person is much more likely to be convicted. So some of those "animals" you speak of have done no more wrong than you or I. As such, it behooves us to not treat them like animals, just in case we are wrong and they are right. Further, treating a human like an animal is a sub-human attitude.

I hope you do not only come to see my point of view after being wrongly convicted yourself.
post #71 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

We can put on our hippie hemp clothing, play with our hacky sack, and claim that no one should ever suffer for a nation to advancement — and that's a great theoretical goal to aspire to — but it's not realistic. If we deny these Chinese these jobs then we deny them of an option and a future for their children.

Sure, I have no problem with workers in these countries having options at a better future (relative to conditions previously). This is exactly what has happened over the past 100 years in the western world.

The problem I see is that the standard of living for the average worker in the western world is eroding at a far quicker rate than the standard of living is increasing for workers in countries such as China. Which means that, with the global picture in mind, we're taking more steps back than we are forward in terms of living conditions for the average person.

My fear is that this expectation of absurd working and living conditions for the average person (very much like the comparison to prison labour) becomes a permanent condition in our society. But then again, I don't put the blame solely on the companies -- it's up to all of us to see that all the products we buy simply can't be produced as cheaply as we expect them without such conditions existing.
 
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post #72 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

CNN reached out to Apple for comment on the story.

I wonder why CNN didn't reach out to Foxconn for comment on the story. I thought it was a Foxcoon factory.
post #73 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by erann View Post

Same here, have been (working 60 hours a week) for the last 25 years in a row. I thought this is what all diligent people do.

No, it's what Americans who are addicted to money do. More civilized countries such as those in Scandinavia work 35 hours a week so that they can actually live a normal life and enjoy it. Sure they have less money but they have a much higher quality of life. Only those brainwashed into thinking life is all about work and material gain would work 60 hours a week. If you work that much, you're a prisoner, whether you admit it or not.
post #74 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Great to see CNN jump on the bandwagon. Just read their ful article, and as expected, instead of actually offering a deeper article with some real reporting, like comparing the the wages of the different manufacturing plants, how Foxconn compares to them, government responsibilities, global dynamics, and why workers like up in the thousands to work at Foxconn, we get the same superficial, 'Apple manufacturing plant' garbage which doesn't add an iota of insight or knowledge into the situation. Incredibly lazy journalism. Par for the course for CNN.

Just saw Ali Velshi and Whats-her-face on CNN clucking their tongues, shaking their heads in disgust, and waving an iPad around. The public destruction of Apple has commenced.
post #75 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

No, it's what Americans who are addicted to money do. More civilized countries such as those in Scandinavia work 35 hours a week so that they can actually live a normal life and enjoy it. Sure they have less money but they have a much higher quality of life. Only those brainwashed into thinking life is all about work and material gain would work 60 hours a week. If you work that much, you're a prisoner, whether you admit it or not.

Actually, I live in Scandinavia and I don't get any pay either. I'm not a prisoner, I am a happy man because I love my job. I agree with you: working for money is old fashioned.
post #76 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

'Boring'? So we also expect manufacturing jobs (in China, no less) to be entertaining, dynamic, and fulfilling now? Why does this quote even deserve to be repeated, considering most people believe they have boring jobs? Oh yeah, cause she mentions she almost feels like 'an animal' (because it's a boring job) which is the sensationalism that we're looking for.

Unless you have worked in manufacturing for 60 hours a week, you have no right to say anything. Rote work withers the brain. And forcing them to work 20 hours extra every week ensures they don't have time to restimulate while away from the plant. I think 99% of the people reading this would go nuts in that situation. I would. So I would humbly like to suggest you STFU.
post #77 of 148
Great to see CNN jump on the bandwagon. Just read their ful article, and as expected, instead of actually offering a deeper article with some real reporting, like comparing the the wages of the different manufacturing plants, how Foxconn compares to them, government responsibilities, global dynamics, and why workers like up in the thousands to work at Foxconn, we get the same superficial, 'Apple manufacturing plant' garbage which doesn't add an iota of insight or knowledge into the situation. Incredibly lazy journalism. Par for the course for CNN.

But this is absolutely scathing:

Quote:
"It's so boring, I can't bear it anymore. Everyday is like: I get off from work and I go to bed. I get up in the morning, and I go to work. It is my daily routine and I almost feel like an animal," said Ms. Chen, who aspires to become a biologist.

I assume they used the worst quotes they could get from 'Ms. Chen'. The fact that this made the cut says alot. 'Boring'? So we also expect manufacturing jobs (in China, no less) to be entertaining, dynamic, and fulfilling now? Why does this quote even deserve to be repeated, considering most people believe they have boring jobs? Oh yeah, cause she mentions she almost feels like 'an animal' (because it's a boring job) which is the sensationalism that we're looking for.

I;m not one to defend Foxconn or any of these companies, but I understand it's not as simple as people make it out to be (Move manufacturing to the US! Dictate higher wages!), and these articles don't help, especially with garbage headlines like 'Apple factory' which to me seems like they're trying to purposely misrepresent the truth for some extra clicks.

Just look at the headlines on the right of 'recent stories' about Foxconn only in the past couple weeks:

Apple tastes sour for worker
Q&A: Apple's China supplier in spotlight
Apple criticized for factory conditions
Apple: Made in China
Apple, consumers must urge justice
Guilty about your iPhone?


Simply amazing. If I didn't know better, I'd assume that not only is Apple is the sole company dealing with Foxconn and China, and not an industry wide practice.
post #78 of 148
The CNN story is worthless. As many have pointed out, almost no context. No wonder CNN continues to decline. Where is true investigative journalism?
post #79 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

When Apple speaks the whole world listens.

When Acer et al speaks nobody gives a f***.

That's the difference. Somebody has to lead and the others will follow.

Well then...why NOT mention Apple, Microsoft, Samsung ALL at the same time for even GREATER IMPACT!
Quote:
My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
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Quote:
My job is NOT to be easy on people. My job is to take these great people we have and to push them and make them even BETTER.

--Steve Jobs on being a CEO
Reply
post #80 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Google, Amazon, HP, Dell, Samsung and others are innocent as the driven snow.

China didn't even exist until Steve Jobs invented it.

CNN should just report on their boyfriend, Obama
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