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post #161 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly.

I find it hilarious that people like Newt Gingritch, who has a certain "history" with marriage, declare that same sex marriage will ruin the institution of marriage. Right.

Quite to the contrary, I believe same sex marriage will strengthen marriage, as it redeclares that marriage is an act out of love, and not out of duty. Even heterosexual marriage will gain from this.

 

At this stage nothing can really strengthen marriage because it isn't a real contract anymore. When anyone can dissolve a contract at any time, without cause and without penalty, then it isn't a real contract. Heterosexual marriage has been declining for decades. As I've advocated in the past, the solution isn't to say that one size must fit even more of the all. It is to try some different solutions. That is why I advocated for civil unions for heterosexual couples. It is why I support covenant marriage. It is why I would support limited term marriage contracts as well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm absolutely sure the people of Oklahoma or Kentucky would vote to outlaw interracial marriage if put to a vote. Should they have that right? Please explain again why same sex marriage is any different, without reverting to the "definition of marriage" bullshit argument.

And I assume you would as vehemently oppose DOMA and other national anti-marriage measures as strongly as you would oppose a "Roe" style legalization?

 

You have no proof of that assertion. You're just projecting a caricature in your head. Oklahoma is 68% white and has 32% non-white population which makes it a lot more tolerant and diverse than say.....HONG KONG which is still 95% Chinese. Also Oklahoma is second in the nation in mixed marriages.

 

So as is usual, you're talking out your ass and projecting hate onto others while practicing stereotyping and hatred yourself.

 

DOMA is broken into multiple sections. I supported and continue to support the section that stipulates that because a law is passed in one state, the other state does not have to grant the same status with regard to marriage. That is known as Section 2. Section 3 is different because it defines marriage as only man and woman and I support gay marriage. I'd prefer the matter NOT be federalized because I would prefer the government experiment with and allow more relationship forms and I feel that is unlikely to happen if the matter is federalized.

 

Also I do not and would not support federalization of abortion prohibition. Overturning Roe v Wade would return the matter to the states. This is exactly, as an example, where you believe marijuana legislation ought to be determined. It is the appropriate level of government for all-non federal matters and that is what we should return to with regard to our Federal Government.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Big news in the coming months...

 

Prop 8 and DOMA are both up for USSC review.

 

https://secure3.convio.net/hrc/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1509&autologin=true&utm_term=footer_link&JServSessionIdr004=4lwwi2946h.app306a

 

Actually I'd bet that several pro-marriage equality groups are white knuckling this review. The various Prop 8 rulings, especially the one by the 9th are just terrible, terrible rulings. The 9th limited their decision to California exclusively so even if they were upheld, it wouldn't federalize the matter because of the absurdity of the Prop 8 ruling. The ruling is ridiculously narrow because the grounds on which it is based are absurd. That isn't to say that using DOMA, the Supreme Court couldn't render a federalized ruling though. Finally the court is also looking into these matters because both the Brown administration and Obama administration has refused to enforce their own laws or assume the role of arguing them in court.

 

In my ideal world, here is how it would play out.

 

The Supreme Court would create case law aka rule about who may have standing to defend acts when an executive branch refuses to do their job.

The Supreme Court would uphold Prop 8 declaring that it is appropriate for voters to amend their Constitutions on state related matters.

The Supreme Court would uphold Section 2 of DOMA declaring that one state cannot force another state to accept their relationship definitions.

The Supreme Court would overturn Section 3 of DOMA declaring that federal marriage definition can only recognize heterosexual marriage.

 

This would allow the federal government to recognize gay marriage from any state that has passed it in terms of taxes, etc. It would still allow states to try other relationship forms more easily because they are allowed to amend legislation and their constitutions without fear that they can never alter that change. (Prop 8 absurdity) It wouldn't force any state to accept in strange or errant rulings by future courts or cases (suppose some FLDS group won a case in a small court in Kansas for polygamy as an example.) It would make the executive branch do their job or let some one be appointed to do their job with regard to standing for case.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #162 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Let me try to be more clear. I have no problem with homosexual people (and their supporters) from attempting to make the case and argue for 100% equality and status in all things. The thing I object to is using force to achieve their objectives.

 

I understand.  That is actually the point I was trying to make, albeit clumsily.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Morally speaking, I believe that homosexual behavior and conduct is wrong, and is wrong in the eyes of God. But, again, I don't intend to impose this moral value onto anyone.

 

Interesting.  I don't view it as morally wrong, though we seem to have a similar position on this issue.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Which is why hospitals should be publicly owned.  You don't always get to determine which hospital you are going to in an emergency situation.  Knowing the management's policy on being heartless assholes ahead of time isn't always feasible--nor is it possible to avoid if they are the only one in network in the area.  Society absolutely does have a right to tell those ignorant twats running the hospital to **** off and be humane.

 

Oh boy....this will be good.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

And, indeed, government-owned facilities have no such right.

 

As to whether all such facilities should be government owned, that's a different debate.

 

Tell me, does this reasoning of yours also apply to restaurants? Hotels? Apartment buildings? Etc.? Or only things that require imminent, emergency decision-making?

 

 

Society? Who is "society?" Can I write him a letter? Can I go visit with him and have a chat? Buy him a beer?

 

1rolleyes.gif

 

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif  Even better response than I anticipated.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You believe that private business is more trustworthy than an elected Government. This is scary.

 

What's scary is that you continue to trust elected government with ever-increasing power and reach, no matter how many times it proves it's incompetent, corrupt and incapable of doing pretty much everything.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #163 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

At this stage nothing can really strengthen marriage because it isn't a real contract anymore. When anyone can dissolve a contract at any time, without cause and without penalty, then it isn't a real contract. Heterosexual marriage has been declining for decades. As I've advocated in the past, the solution isn't to say that one size must fit even more of the all. It is to try some different solutions. That is why I advocated for civil unions for heterosexual couples. It is why I support covenant marriage. It is why I would support limited term marriage contracts as well.

 

Agreed.  

 

 

 

Quote:

You have no proof of that assertion. You're just projecting a caricature in your head. Oklahoma is 68% white and has 32% non-white population which makes it a lot more tolerant and diverse than say.....HONG KONG which is still 95% Chinese. Also Oklahoma is second in the nation in mixed marriages.

 

So as is usual, you're talking out your ass and projecting hate onto others while practicing stereotyping and hatred yourself.

 

Hey, at least it's not unexpected.  You knew that he and someone else with the initials BR couldn't have a discussion about the topic without casting aspersions upon all who have even a slightly different position.  It's full recognition of same sex marriage and outright advocacy of every gay rights position, or you're a hater.  See thread title.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
DOMA is broken into multiple sections. I supported and continue to support the section that stipulates that because a law is passed in one state, the other state does not have to grant the same status with regard to marriage. That is known as Section 2. Section 3 is different because it defines marriage as only man and woman and I support gay marriage. I'd prefer the matter NOT be federalized because I would prefer the government experiment with and allow more relationship forms and I feel that is unlikely to happen if the matter is federalized.

 

Section 1 will probably come down to an Equal Protection argument.  I don't know whether states' rights or the federal solution wins.  I suspect there will be some middle ground.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Also I do not and would not support federalization of abortion prohibition. Overturning Roe v Wade would return the matter to the states. This is exactly, as an example, where you believe marijuana legislation ought to be determined. It is the appropriate level of government for all-non federal matters and that is what we should return to with regard to our Federal Government.

 

Yes, good example...one which I'm sure will be ignored :)  Here again, if you even mention that you favor overturning Roe, you're branded "anti-choice" and "anti-women" and "anti-reproductive rights."  The notion that someone could actually support choice in most cases and favor overturning Roe (like me) is incomprehensible to some our lib...eh, progressive friends.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Actually I'd bet that several pro-marriage equality groups are white knuckling this review. The various Prop 8 rulings, especially the one by the 9th are just terrible, terrible rulings. The 9th limited their decision to California exclusively so even if they were upheld, it wouldn't federalize the matter because of the absurdity of the Prop 8 ruling. The ruling is ridiculously narrow because the grounds on which it is based are absurd. That isn't to say that using DOMA, the Supreme Court couldn't render a federalized ruling though. Finally the court is also looking into these matters because both the Brown administration and Obama administration has refused to enforce their own laws or assume the role of arguing them in court.

 

In my ideal world, here is how it would play out.

 

The Supreme Court would create case law aka rule about who may have standing to defend acts when an executive branch refuses to do their job.

The Supreme Court would uphold Prop 8 declaring that it is appropriate for voters to amend their Constitutions on state related matters.

The Supreme Court would uphold Section 2 of DOMA declaring that one state cannot force another state to accept their relationship definitions.

The Supreme Court would overturn Section 3 of DOMA declaring that federal marriage definition can only recognize heterosexual marriage.

 

This would allow the federal government to recognize gay marriage from any state that has passed it in terms of taxes, etc. It would still allow states to try other relationship forms more easily because they are allowed to amend legislation and their constitutions without fear that they can never alter that change. (Prop 8 absurdity) It wouldn't force any state to accept in strange or errant rulings by future courts or cases (suppose some FLDS group won a case in a small court in Kansas for polygamy as an example.) It would make the executive branch do their job or let some one be appointed to do their job with regard to standing for case.

 

Excellent analysis.  I think that would probably be a good outcome (the ruling).  I doubt that the USSC will simply declare gay marriage legal on equal protection grounds.  It will be interesting to see what they do in terms of balancing states' rights and equal protection as it applies to them.   

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #164 of 202
Thread Starter 

The haters are now helping.

 

 

Quote:

But here's the good news: TVC, NOM, AFA, FRC—all the acronymed assholes—are losing the debate over the humanity and equality of gay people. And the insanely bigoted rhetoric that bothers you so much is one of the reasons they're losing the debate.

When you see those comments, AAAAA, when you find yourself getting upset, just remember that TVC and NOM and FRC and AFA are all shooting themselves in the foot. So are all the freelance haters lurking in comments threads on blogs and on news websites spouting off about buttsecks and feces and pedophilia.

You see, today most people know someone who's LGBT. The homophobic nonsense that straight people used to find so persuasive—gay people are all icky perverts! they're coming for your children! they hate the family!—doesn't work on straight people who actually know someone who's LGBT. People like, oh, Sen. Rob Portman.

Hateful bullshit peddlers like Tony Perkins offend more people than they persuade. And they don't just offend LGBT people. Not anymore. When anti-gay bigots rant about dirty, dirty buttsecks or compare being gay to drunk driving, they offend straight people who know and love gay people. They offend our friends, our neighbors, our coworkers, and our families. And increasingly they're offending people who are on the fence about LGBT rights, people who may not know anyone who's LGBT—but, hey, they like Ellen Degeneres lady on the TV. She seems so nice, right? Nothing like a drunk driver.

We have to fight back, of course, we have to respond to their garbage arguments, we have to confront their bigotry, and refute their lies. But when it's all over—when LGBT people achieve our full civil equality—we should remember to send all the newly unemployed assholes at NOM and FRC and TVC and AFA a thank-you note. Because at this point in the struggle for LGBT civil rights, AAAAA, the assholes at NOM and FRC and TVC and AFA bring that day closer every time they open their hateful mouths.

 

Though, as quoted earlier in the article, it would be much better if people like Congressman Portman would have thought about other people's feelings before he was directly affected by the consequences of his party's bigotry.  It's great that Portman is now suddenly in favor of marriage equality. 

 

 

 

Quote:
"...shouldn't he take some time to think about how he might feel about other issues that don't happen to touch him personally?"  -Matthew Yglesias

 

Paul Krugman also said it quite well...

 

 

 

Quote:
Political virtue consists in standing for what’s right, even — or indeed especially — when it doesn’t redound to your own benefit. Someone should ask Portman why he didn’t take a stand for, you know, other people’s children.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #165 of 202
Face it, haters, we've reached a tipping point.
post #166 of 202

What tipping point are you referring to?
 

post #167 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

What tipping point are you referring to?
 


Recognition of same sex marriage is going to snowball. The Bible Belt and the Deep South will continue to oppose, but I see every blue state and every northern state legalizing same sex marriage within ten years. Then it's going to go national as a human rights issue.

post #168 of 202

Perhaps you are right. The Eastern states are really starting to recognize same sex marriage quite a bit now.
 

post #169 of 202
Thread Starter 

Time has it right.  It's still not too late to drop your hate.

 

 

LGXRGTY.jpg

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #170 of 202

This still disgusts me to no end.

post #171 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

What tipping point are you referring to?
 


Recognition of same sex marriage is going to snowball. The Bible Belt and the Deep South will continue to oppose, but I see every blue state and every northern state legalizing same sex marriage within ten years. Then it's going to go national as a human rights issue.

 

If given ten years then it will not only be recognized, but be recognized the right way, but the majority wanting it and likely legislation and amendments going into place to ensure it is this way for as long as the nation exists.

 

The wrong way to handle it would be the way that abortion has been handled whereby a court decision finds the right and then everyone spends the rest of eternity thinking up hidden litmus tests to make sure no judge might secretly hide an agenda for or against court case which is the only support for that matter.

 

Much like how true and tough love requires a parent guide their child, set limits for them and provide discipline rather than just being a friend, true support for same sex marriage means not only getting it passed, but getting it passed the right way.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #172 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Time has it right.

 

It doesn't matter in the long run.

'Gay Marriage' has been accepted in the world before, and then restricted again when society came back to its senses.

 

America might not survive the policies leading to the intentional destruction of the family instituted by its elites over the last several decades.

 

But Christianity most certainly will.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #173 of 202

Comments recently posted on a newspaper article about a church pastor that stated the traditional Christian theological interpretation of marriage from the bible (i.e., one man one woman):

 

Quote:

"Well, I always thought that place was full of losers. Thanks for the confirmation!"

 

 

"The skunk has shown its stripe."
 
"And the clueless, brainwashed followers follow the message of hate and homophobia accordingly. It honestly blows my mind that any reasonable and intelligent person can still believe in something like this."
 
"Then what is the difference between your church and Westboro? You two churches have the same message; hate."

 

"Your words are literally killing children, gay children and adults. They kill themselves because of the spiritual violence your ministers are preaching. They are not just words, they are as damaging as a bullet to the head."

 

"City Council - If you all want to handle land use issues, get rid of these people and tell them they may not preach hate in town. You have no mind anyhow when it comes to paying attention to any constitution so who cares about their rights, Nix em!"

 

"A church is making political statements? That violates IRS regulations- seize their assets and shut them down."

 
"Is there any way the members, 15,000 strong, can wear an armband, necklace or other identifying label to warn us to steer clear from them?"
 

"Nero may have been on the right track."

 

 

And this is from an area that regularly and loudly preaches tolerance.

 

Haters indeed.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #174 of 202
Thread Starter 

I see absolutely no problem with half of those quotes and the other half are rather tame as far as internet comments are concerned.  Gay shaming literally does kill children.  The psychological abuse that goes on in churches can be far, far worse than physical abuse.  Furthermore, when churches do make political statements and violate their IRS deal, they should pay severe penalties and lose their tax-exempt statuses.  

 

One does not have to be tolerant of intolerance.  Saying I hate your hate is perfectly acceptable--in fact, calling you out on your hate and hating your hate openly is the fucking moral thing to do.

 

Your positions are utterly despicable with regard to marriage equality and putting the rights of bigots ahead of the rights of gay people.  You damn well should be shamed for such hateful and hurtful positions.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #175 of 202

Right on cue, more irrational apologetics for leftist hatred and even support for use of force against those with whom they disagree and projection of their own intolerance and hatred onto others. Classic.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #176 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I see absolutely no problem with half of those quotes and the other half are rather tame as far as internet comments are concerned.  Gay shaming literally does kill children.  The psychological abuse that goes on in churches can be far, far worse than physical abuse.  Furthermore, when churches do make political statements and violate their IRS deal, they should pay severe penalties and lose their tax-exempt statuses.  

 

One does not have to be tolerant of intolerance.  Saying I hate your hate is perfectly acceptable--in fact, calling you out on your hate and hating your hate openly is the fucking moral thing to do.

 

Your positions are utterly despicable with regard to marriage equality and putting the rights of bigots ahead of the rights of gay people.  You damn well should be shamed for such hateful and hurtful positions.

 

Speech is not the same as a bullet to the head. The fact that you continue not to see this, along with claiming dissenting thoughts are the same as trapping people in a burning theater really shows a terrifying thought process with regard to you. Basically it is clear that you cannot separate speech from actual action and it portends some very worrisome actions on your part to stop said speech when you equate them, inappropriately with action because you feel you will be stopping an action.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #177 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I see absolutely no problem with half of those quotes and the other half are rather tame as far as internet comments are concerned.  Gay shaming literally does kill children.  The psychological abuse that goes on in churches can be far, far worse than physical abuse.  Furthermore, when churches do make political statements and violate their IRS deal, they should pay severe penalties and lose their tax-exempt statuses.  

 

One does not have to be tolerant of intolerance.  Saying I hate your hate is perfectly acceptable--in fact, calling you out on your hate and hating your hate openly is the fucking moral thing to do.

 

Your positions are utterly despicable with regard to marriage equality and putting the rights of bigots ahead of the rights of gay people.  You damn well should be shamed for such hateful and hurtful positions.

 

An atheist justifying his own hatred of others. How surprising.

 

 

BTW, churches did not ask for and do not want any "deal" with the IRS.

That was foisted on them by the government to hamper their effectiveness in preaching morality.

 

While I don't believe churches should have to pay most taxes in an ideal society, I'm more than happy to see that change if it means we can more actively participate in public life. The 'IRS deal' is a creation of frightened liberals who know the majority hates their failed ideologies.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #178 of 202
Thread Starter 

http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/207231321.html

 

I've been sadly neglecting this thread.  Since the last update, we've had Minnesota today, and Delaware and Rhode Island a few weeks back.  

 

We've also had Uruguay, New Zealand, and Sao Paolo, Brazil join civilized modern society.  France is just around the corner.

 

Suck it, haters.  It's still not too late to stop being one.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #179 of 202
Thread Starter 

France joins the civilized world.  Will you join us in the 21st century?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #180 of 202

1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #181 of 202
Thread Starter 

interracial1.jpg

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #182 of 202
Thread Starter 

Down goes DOMA!

Down goes Prop 8!

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #183 of 202

You are really getting ahead of yourself and should do more than read headlines. This is a ridiculously narrow decision.

 

You do realize you just celebrated the Supreme Court affirming that it is just fine for 32 states to legislate against gay marriage.

 

You are quite the piece of work BR.

 

DOMA didn't go down. Read more than a headline. Section 3 was overturned. Section 2, the part that governs reciprocal recognition of rights, was not challenged and thus has been affirmed.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #184 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You are really getting ahead of yourself and should do more than read headlines. This is a ridiculously narrow decision.

 

You do realize you just celebrated the Supreme Court affirming that it is just fine for 32 states to legislate against gay marriage.

 

So you're saying this was basically a federalist/states-rights decision?! That will really piss off liberals when they figure that out. lol.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #185 of 202
Thread Starter 

Section 2 is abjectly unconstitutional and it will go down in time as well.  When bigots like several members of this board have so much clout in this country, victories against them are paved one step at a time.  This was two pretty damn big steps in one day.

 

 

And there was a great disturbance in the Force... as if a million homophobes suddenly cried out in anguish...

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #186 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When bigots like several members of this board...

 

 

Like who for example? Given that you believe there are several, you should have no problem naming a couple specifically.

 

Frankly, based on Merriam-Webster's definition:

 

Quote:
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

 

You're about the only one here that fits that definition.


Edited by MJ1970 - 6/26/13 at 4:34pm

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post #187 of 202
Thread Starter 

I will not tolerate your intolerance.  I am not a sucker.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/02/on-tolerating-intolerance/

 

Quote:

Zinnia Jones at Freethought Blogs had a great post last week exposing Matt Moore, an evangelical and so-called “ex-gay” who loudly boasted that Jesus had cured him of homosexuality. It turns out the cure wasn’t exactly complete, since Moore had an active profile on the gay hookup site Grindr.

When confronted with the evidence of his hypocrisy, Moore admitted the account was his, claiming that he had been “disobedient” and that Jesus had already forgiven him for it (a clear example of Haggard’s Law in action). But he then went on to accuse Zinnia of being mean to him:

“People such as Zinnia preach a message of tolerance and kindness to all, yet they are not tolerant of my beliefs and show me no kindness.”

As I observed at the time, he was effectively saying, “If you’re such a tolerant person, why won’t you tolerate my intolerance?”

For Moore’s sake and for the sake of anyone else who makes the same complaint, let me explain why I reject this argument. The easiest explanation is based on the Prisoner’s Dilemma, a game-theory puzzle that’s an important underpinning of my theory of morality. The Prisoner’s Dilemma is an abstraction of a scenario where two people are arrested and interrogated for the same crime, with each one pressured to testify against the other. The point is that you can either choose to cooperate with the other player or to betray them. Betraying when the other player cooperates gives you the highest payoff; mutual cooperation gives you a lesser but still high payoff; mutual betrayal gives a low payoff; and the sucker who cooperates when the other player betrays gets the lowest payoff of all.

There have been tournaments where computer programs play repeated rounds of the Prisoner’s Dilemma against each other. Although some intricate strategies have been dreamed up, using complicated algorithms to try to predict when the other player will cooperate so that you can backstab them, there’s one simple strategy that consistently beats every competitor. It’s called “Tit for Tat”, and it works like this: On the first round, cooperate; on every subsequent round, do whatever your opponent did last round.

When Tit for Tat meets another player who’s reliable, it racks up rounds of mutually beneficial cooperation. When it meets a player who tries to backstab, it retaliates, ensuring that the cheater can’t benefit in the long run from their treachery. And because this strategy is so simple and easily predictable, it ensures that other players will recognize both these facts.

When they play the “why won’t you tolerate my intolerance?” card, bigots erroneously think that we believe being a good person means always cooperating, always extending a hand of friendship to others, even if it’s been slapped away in the past. (In Moore’s specific case, he’s suggesting that even though he’s called being gay sinful, unnatural and destructive, LGBT people should just look past that and forgive him when he’s fallen on hard times.)

But I’m not an exploitable, selflessly cooperating sucker. In the game of morality, I play Tit for Tat. I cooperate with people who are willing to cooperate in turn, which is why I cheerfully scorn the complaints of bigots and other moral free-riders who try to take unfair advantage of me and then say I should be nice to them. It’s better for everyone if that kind of hypocrisy is exposed and punished, in order to steer the cheater back towards an ethic of cooperation. That’s the goal I seek to advance, and that’s why I’m happy to say that I feel no desire to show compassion and kindness towards the intolerant.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #188 of 202
Thread Starter 
I cheerfully scorn your complaints.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #189 of 202

Wasn't so much a complaint as an observation. Get it right.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #190 of 202
Thread Starter 

Eh, I'd rather be wrong about that and right about marriage equality.  The latter is a far more important issue.  Score two for the good guys today.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #191 of 202

Can't you be both? Not be a "hatetard" and be right about other things? Or is your own bigotry so deeply ingrained that it's not possible yet?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #192 of 202
Thread Starter 

Oh MJ, you clearly didn't comprehend (or bother to read) the article about not needing to tolerate your intolerance.  Of course, if all you have left is going to urban dictionary and calling me names, well, it's just another sign that you are beyond desperate.  You know, you can abandon your iron age desert-dweller beliefs and join us in the 21st century.  Nobody is stopping you but yourself.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #193 of 202

I understand your illogical assertion of being intolerant of intolerance.

 

I also understand your erroneous assumption of my intolerance.

 

I also understand your deep bigotry. No one is stopping you from stopping your bigotry besides yourself. Go forth and de-bigot yourself.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #194 of 202
Thread Starter 

Your silly name-calling games are your last refuge.  I'll just let you pathetically dwell there.  Enjoy.  You won't put a damper on this day.  The march of progress continues and you are being left behind, pissing into the wind.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #195 of 202

I love how you get to run around calling people all manner of names but when someone (correctly) calls you one you deflect it back as if you inhabit some sort of moral high ground. You're quite hilarious and hypocritical.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #196 of 202
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Today marks a watershed moment in history and a tremendous victory for the principle of equality. The 5-4 decision by our Supreme Court striking down DOMA affirms the universality of love--the desire of all people not only to find, but to value and affirm, a lifelong commitment to another person. 

I have lived nearly four score years, and have borne witness to both the heartbreak and promise of true justice and equality in America. Today my heart soars, and my faith in the promise of our great nation is renewed. 

Now, if there's anything we gays know how to do well, it is to celebrate! Let the joy of this day ring out with PRIDE.
 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #197 of 202
Thread Starter 

Looks like MJ is just taking his cues from nutters like Bryan Fischer.

 

 

The top Youtube comment is priceless.

 

 

Quote:

"They're treating us like second-class citizens by preventing us from treating gays like second-class citizens!"

Genius logic there, Fischer!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #198 of 202

It looks like BR is insane.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #199 of 202

Supreme Court on Voting Rights Act: It is a state rights matter and all states must be treated equally with regard to how the federal government makes demands regarding their voting requirements.

 

Various leftists.....This is hate. This is Nazi Germany. This means no people of color will ever get to vote again!

 

Supreme Court on DOMA: It is a state rights matter and all states must be treated equally with regard to how they determine marriage and how they oversee their marriage requirements at the federal level.

 

Various leftists. This is tolerance. This is beautiful. This means no homosexual couple will ever be denied their rights ever again!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #200 of 202
Thread Starter 

Common thread: Discrimination & Disenfranchisement--BAD; Rejecting Discrimination & Disenfranchisement--GOOD.  Hmm...which group sides against gays and for voter suppression?  Conservatives you say?  Shocking.

 

Cry more tears of impotent rage.  Today is a good day.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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