Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store - Page 4

That's been done before and yet Apple is singling out for allowing this child and forced labor camp.

• http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20006945-37.html

No one is saying that.

Apple already does and has been for quite some time, as a matter of fact it was their reports which brought these issues to light in the first place.

Apple goes even further than the dumbasses with their stupid petition, they go deeper in to their supply chain, they look into the companies that supply Foxconn with the parts used to manufacture Apple products.

Something these idiots seeking a moment in the spotlight seem to have overlooked in their ludicrous campaign.

Which, if you want that information is voluntarily and publicly available on Apple's website.

Making working conditions in China into Apple's problem not only misses the point, it encourages the worst kind of limited thinking around what is in fact an almost intractable problem.

What if Apple gave "their" (Foxconn's) workers a raise? Since Foxconn assembles products for a slew of other CE manufacturers, would Apple need to foot the bill for those products as well? Should there be some kind of test for who has to pony up for better-than-prevailing wages, depending on how much cash on hand they have?

And even if they did that, we're talking about the merest sliver the Chinese labor force. Once Apple "did the right thing", do the people taking Apple to task sit back and bask in the knowledge that they changed the world?

"Everybody else does it", in this case, is extremely significant, since the West is absolutely addicted to cheap Chinese goods, and those goods are cheap because of relatively low wages. If every manufacturer outsourcing manufacturing to China were to do the altruistic thing and arrange to have those worker's pay and benefits increased (and how much is enough? Does their housing need to subsidized by these firms as well, since living conditions are quite poor compared to the West?), prices on a huge swath of consumer goods would rise abruptly. It would have a huge impact on our economy, probably reigniting a drop into recession if not full blown depression.

Are you prepared to argue for that? Because if you're not, your basically saying "Apple has a lot of money so they should just fix their tiny corner of the problem and that'll satisfy me." That's not being serious about Chinese working conditions, that's just passing the buck. It's like demanding that a wealthy philanthropist fund a soup kitchen without ever having a word to say about the economic conditions that make such institutions necessary, or exploring options to bring that necessity to an end.

Myself, I'd like to see a systematic, industry wide response to Chinese working conditions, but I'm not optimistic that the tech tail can wag that dog. China is a great big autonomous country with its own history, politics and prevailing notions of what's fair. Acting as if it falls to the West to provide solace and guidance for their poor benighted citizenry smacks of same "White Man's Burden" thinking that has caused so much suffering around the globe.

OTOH, demand for workers will drive wages up, and if they get high enough to warrant it, manufacturers will shift production to the next corner of the globe with enough hungry people to work for peanuts.

It's called global capitalism. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm not naive enough to think that Apple somehow calls the shots.

A good example of stupidity and ignorance. Not a single person in this thread, or any thread about the topic I've seen, has suggested 'everyone is doing it, so lets ignore the problem'. It's a strawman argument you're erecting. If you don't know what that is, it's a fictional, imaginary argument you've come up with that you can pretend to argue against. They're saying there's a problem, but it's a problem of global economic dynamics, and not one Apple has the power to address in a meaningful way, more than they've done. Apple can go ahead and empty their entirety of cash reserves in an attempt to change it, and even liquify themselves as a company and throw their entire networth of value at the problem. And if you think that amount of money will even change anything, you'd be wrong. Then you go ahead and say this:


See, that statement suggests you're clueless, and grotesquely so. Apple can't give anyone at Foxconn a raise. THEY'RE NOT APPLE'S EMPLOYEES. Is that a concept so difficult to understand? You apparently don't know this. You're the perfect example of a person with such a supercial, false understanding of even of the fundamentals of the situation, yet you're chastising others for 'not caring' and outraged about things you completely misunderstand. As far as sitting at an airconditioned home, etc, you're doing exactly the same thing as everyone else, yet you're taking a shortcut to making yourself feel good by pretending to 'stand up' for something you're so confused about.

You're right, people in this thread have no idea whats it's like to be these Chinese workers. Neither do you. But Chinese people do. And they're lining up in the thousands to work at Foxconn. Foxconn already has the highest manufacturing wages in the region. Can you please explain to me, specifically, how Apple, as a client, can force Foxconn to do things like significantly increase wages even further- when none of Foxconn's competitors are doing that, and while Foxconn has a SHITLOAD of other clients, including a dozen billion dollar corporations? I'm assuming you're referring to wages, as of course you can't be bothered to be specific in anything. Explain that to me in detail, instead of spouting more feel-good garbage like 'Apple can do better', which is a vague, intellectually lazy statement that shows you don't want to think about the issue for more than a few seconds. Nothing in my post is me defending Apple- but attacking blatant ignorance (like you display) which doesn't bring us closer to solving anything, but drags us backwards and makes everyone muddle the issue. While you're answering my questions, answer those that addabox posed, and try to learn from his (great) post.

Maybe you can't believe it because nobody is saying any such thing like "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". I am saying that there is no significant problem. This is just a bunch of hyperbolic whiny protesters who are whining about some problem that doesn't exist and they're even lying about it, trying to create a fake outrage in order to fool other gullible people.

And it's not up to Apple to give those people raises, because in case you didn't realize it, they are not Apple employees and they do not work for Apple. Apple doesn't owe them shit. And their wages are in line or better than average wages for where they are.

177 African kids probably just died from starvation while I was typing my post. I'm pretty sure that they have it worse than some Chinese workers who actually have jobs and are getting paid a decent wage. Why don't the ridiculous protesters go and show their huge outrage over that instead of making themselves look like hypocritical, ignorant fools?

All these posts and not a single mention that, Samsung's country of origin, has the second highest suicide rate in the world.

While we're all intent on cleaning up America's largest financier, maybe we should also send the troops into South Korea?

Anybody know if they've got any oil or WMD's?

Look Apple, HP, Dell and every other electronics company are the new slave owners in the world and the Chinese are the new slaves. this story is as old as time. The south still has not gotten over the fact they have pay people to pick cotton.

What no one cares to talk about is how did China lure away all the manufacturing from the US. Remember when all apple computers were made in the US until 2001. When Dell and HP moved their manufacturing to China and started this race to the bottom of finding cheap labor. The chinese government gives so much to companies like FoxCon that why are practically government owned. US companies can't compete with that. If the US would start investing in infrastructure in the country we could see a return to manufacturing here and even Apple says its not the cheap labor that they want its the resources. In China if you need a special gasket its right around the corner from another factory that can ramp up to meet your demands in a few days. We do not provide that kind of food chain anymore. Giving companies tax breaks is not the answer, government involvement will fix it but we are paralyzed here with fear from listening too so much BS about how bad government is. sigh

The Chinese won't let themselves be slaves to anyone but themselves.


FoxConn is a Taiwanese company. It is more likely that FoxConn is paying money to the Chinese Government, or at least certain members of it.

FFS what about the other companies?

Hey protestors ~ in Malaysia if you work retail you do 14-hour shifts for up to five or even six days in a row. No overtime is mandatory to be paid for anyone earning above a paltry ~$750 USD a month or something like that. Even office workers (read: "white-collar" jobs) do up to 10 hour days six days in a row, sometimes more. No overtime payable for public holidays, Sundays, any day for "white-collar" workers earning above ~$750 USD a month. No minimum wage in Malaysia. Bosses calling workers all time of the day and night for all kinds of things. Late commissions and incentives not paid. Outright fraud of superannuation/401(K) in many instances. Rampant government corruption. Extremely low wages compared to rising costs of living.

And the coup de grace: Instutionalised racism against non-ethnic-Malay-Muslims.

Please come to Malaysia and protest. Seriously, we also need you in Malaysia. Stop wasting time in the US.

Thank you.

PS. There is child labour like the kid working at their parents' food stall but that kid's family probably earns more than regular "white-collar" workers.

Well, they tried in the 50's. Didn't work out so well.

North Korea has WMD's or so I'm sure we'll be led to believe when the US nukes them. Then South Korea will spearhead the "rebuilding" in conjunction with Halliburton et al.

This is the best thread ever.

That's near enough for me!

Send in the boys!

I am glad that Apple is at least responding to it and trying to correct what they can, but they are working not only with a place they don't own, but a government that is not like ours. Although I'm sure there would be some to disagree. People also need to remember that it is not just Apple they do buisness through. If you want to protest, protest the injustices we have here and internationally. Hunger, famine, homelessness, people who need medical help and the list goes on. So for those who think that it's just up to Apple only to change the injustices of the world. Go home and be glad you have a life and for those who understand the circumstances and why it's not just Apple, but others out there who are also at fault. I applaud them for trying to bring some reason and logic to the conversation.

Err... Who are you referring to? Curious.


I agree to a large degree. What pisses me off is that Apple is the whipping boy for every bl**dy single thing in the world. The goshdarned low hanging fruit (pun unintended) in the activism world.

Of course I support the "left-wing" but I question the specific targeting of Apple, because:

1. Apple is shown to be mostly progressive compared to other companies. If other companies see that, wow, even Apple gets hammered, they might prefer to not do anything because they might feel it's not worth it in the long run, they would prefer to "lay low".

2. Yes, Apple is huge, but there are other very large, significant countries and companies around the world which are causing massive harm. Again, I talk about Malaysia just to throw something in the mix and raise awareness that the developing world is overall really quite messed up, not just China or India. Yes China is big and a lot of Western companies are investing and soon will be very reliant on them. But like you say stuff happens everywhere. Another thing in Malaysia is toxic waste due to a proposed rare-earth processing plant right next door to a residential area (in Malaysia the idea of urban planning and zoning pretty much went out the window a long time ago and it's up to large land developers to provide that sanity of planning to make the new developments attractive). It will be the first rare-earth processing plant to be built outside of China because of how toxic it is.

3. Which raises my final point... As more pressure heaps onto China, just like the Malaysia toxic waste case above ( http://stoplynas.org/ ) ... You will also start to see China "export" the "dirty stuff" out of the country. Either implicitly by Chinese corporations (Foxconn in Brazil) or by other companies (Lynas in Australia building rare-earth processing plants outside of China). So a more holistic view is important for the "left". Sure, Apple is an easy punching bag and now a big target of anti-capitalism ( Yes, the idea that if you buy Apple you are a big capitalist... Puh-leaseee) and garners easy media attention, but don't just go for the low-hanging fruit. Real "hardcore" activism to me is stuff like chaining yourself to a BP offshore rig or something like that... I mean, how many of the protestors will have iPhones, iPads or Macs? That point alone reduces the effectiveness of the protests.

[QUOTE=nvidia2008;2041066]Err... Who are you referring to? Curious.

Sorry I meant them. I corrected it though.

I call it just that - negotiations. Until they start offing themselves then it's an empty threat. People get disgruntled and do crazy things all the time.

To be honest people need to look at the whole picture. Frankly, this argument is so freakin' tired. Foxconn employes almost a MILLION people at their complexes. ONE MILLION! Think about the suicide rate in the average city of ONE MILLION people. People get disgruntled and kill themselves, it's a part of life. I'm in the military and we lose people to suicides more than I care to admit.

Oh... never mind.

Some time ago I saw a program on TV - don't recall all the details - but the short version is that workers in Mexico were offered DOUBLE the standard pay and all they had to do was show up on time and work a ill shift every day for a week - and NOT ONE did so.

i don't recall what the job was - garment factory or something - not some like underground coal mining or something that would be considered hazardous or grueling work. Tedious and repetitive perhaps and with little or no perks etc and work they were already doing anyway.

just an example of how one's personal perspective can be quite different from another's depending on many factors that I suspect most of us rarely even stop to consider.

I think it is a very common human thing to think that other folks are just like themselves - or that they are utterly different.

Even something as simple as watching a news broadcast in another state for the first time in your life can make you aware that you never stopped to consider the fact that not everyone watches the same news casters or TV broadcast that you do. Local news anyway - I suppose that is less true today with CNN etc being available to a very broad audience. The point is that we spend most of our lives never questioning or examining the things that we take for granted. It is also next to impossible to stop and think of all the things that you are unaware of - since by definition you are not aware of them.

You do realize that Apple IS leading they way in making improvements, don't you?! Or do you?

I do not understand why the focus among the protesters is not against the other companies that are not working as hard as Apple is for improvements. The protesters should be taking hard looks at Samsung, HTC, Motorola and the like and asking yourselves, exactly why aren't these companies working as hard as Apple is?? Why are these companies getting the "free pass"? It takes a coordinated effort of all companies conducting business with Chinese manufactures, NOT JUST ONE.

Apple is already leading the way.

Uhhh.... Flashbacks... FLASHBACKS...

There's more inside information revealed in that <4min video than in the 28 years of Apple that followed.

Why did people complain about Nike when they could have gone after Asics?

Because you go after the one that CAN change things, not the guy at the bottom that has no chips to bargain with.

If you lot were around during the French revolution you'd undoubtedly be the loyalists, demanding that nothing ever change.

"Louis XVI has already given us EVERYTHING. What did Louis XV or XIV ever do? It's time we lie down and never ask for any progress ever again. We need to close our minds and hearts and just take the very minimum that the crown is prepared to offer, because Louis XVI is the one finally making changes!"

That is essentially your argument. You guys are the "Press your lips and take it" crew. I hope you're the minority, because otherwise things are likely to just keep getting worse.

All of the computer manufacturers have the ability to change things. Don't think otherwise. Doing so allows them to pretend they're absolved of any work.


Other than the fact that it has always been getting better and that Apple has always been improving conditions, yeah.

It's incredibly easy to sign a petition supporting allegations of worker abuse in China whilst still in your skivvies and sipping a latté.

I suppose this Shields fellow is simply out to make a name for himself and alleged human suffering is just the ticket he needs.

I think Shields best bet would be to take his petition to China and also include demonstrations outside the Foxconn site.

This whole thing looks like a job for Muttonchops Steve Jobs and his sidekick, iMan!

"Apple elitists"?

That's certainly not my argument. My argument is that issues of economic injustice are best dealt with by looking at root causes, not just hammering a symptom.

Your (actually pretty ridiculous) comparison to pre-revolutionary France is telling. What if the beginning and end of the revolution had been to demand concessions from Louis XVI? What if Louis the XVI had capitulated, and taken some slight measures to ease the suffering of France's poor, while doing nothing at all to change the system of power and allocation of wealth that engendered that suffering in the first place?

Even if Apple went crazy and just lavished cash on Foxconn's employees, somehow convinced the Chinese government to intercede directly in the China's affairs by by creating some kind of "Apple Town" with sharply different levels of comfort and services from the economy at large, and, what the hell, instigated direct democracy within the workplace in a way that no where else in China enjoys, it would do next to nothing to address the endemic problems that are the result of larger economic forces, Chinese domestic policy, etc.

I'm struck by how none of the people arguing for Apple to step up seem to have much interest or concern about those larger problems. How would Apple's response fit into any larger scheme? What would that scheme look like? Without the larger plan, anything Apple could do would be merely a gesture. Gestures are fine (and would certainly benefit a tiny fraction of Chinese workers) but it's not really responding the actual problem.

The Apple employee is thinking that the petition is an enormous waste of paper and is wondering how long it will take to shred that sucker.

The guy beside him is wondering if Sarah is single and wasn't interested in Chinese working conditions at all when he signed up.

What a disgusting waste of paper.

EDIT: Beaten.

Oh, and love this part:


More press than supporters, which numbered like a dozen. That's the best they could do? The very definition of a manufactured outrage media circle jerk. As an aside, what the fuck is an ethical iPhone? A jumbo iPhone? One that's manufactured by well payed unicorns who swim in honey?I don't get it.

Has anyone listened to this podcast at:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-apple-factory
Mike Daisy has interviewed ex staff at the Foxcon factory in Shenzhen.

Has anyone considered that the suicides could be the work of a clever serial killer? The Foxconn Killer has a good sound to it.

... or maybe Foxconn jobs are so much better than most employment in China that Chinese gangs are creating openings for their relatives.

Apple should sue these people for copyright infringement

(the icons and iMessage stuff)

I had an uncle who was the victim of an assisted suicide.

That's sad but what does this have to do with SolipsismX's comments?

Maybe not a serial killer:

That's awful yet I can't help but laugh.