or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store - Page 2

post #41 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Interesting comment.

The actual suicides in the Foxconn factory were addressed a long time ago. Suicides within Foxconn were much lower than the suicide rate in China as a whole. So it doesn't support your claim.

As for the giant mass suicide threat? That was among employees at the factor making the xBox 360. So why is it appropriate to attack Apple for something that happened at a factory making Microsoft products?

Thanks for proving that most of the people complaining about Apple have not bothered to learn anything about the facts of the situation.

Without getting into a ridiculously long discussion about the state of the chinese workforce and the laws that govern it...I think its generally accepted that the Foxconn factory has some pretty shady a$$ practices, at least by western standards, and western companies should be holding themselves to a higher standard.
post #42 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

What exactly do you call the giant mass suicide threat a few months ago? Can you imagine a bunch of office workers negotiating with suicide?


Since you cite it, that event was reportedly Foxconn workers who were making the XBox for Microsoft, oddly enough. Never really got much in the way of details about why them, why then, and what the demands were. Not Apple related, except by extension via Foxconn.

Apple, like it or not, is now the big kahuna making the mobile and computer devices that people all over the world want to have. With the success comes all sorts of scrutiny. They are now the poster boy for all of the Chinese factory workers problems regardless of what they make and as such will have to learn to deal with it, and hopefully get out ahead of it. The disclosures and answering to half-baked accusation is a bad fit for their corporate culture but if they handle it right, they could do a lot of good for both the workers who are hard at work furiously trying to build enough, and for the corporate 'good citizen - exemplar' badge that Apple would like to wear.

The really hard thing is that Apple is growing so fast that the pressure is constant for execs, managers, and on down to the supply chain and to the factory floor. Extremely trying conditions, the type that breed abuse, even when Apple is trying to prevent it. That said, I hope they are getting Foxconn to be generous with overtime pay ... even if no one else is over there.
post #43 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallest skil View Post

they planning on going to a best buy the day after and protesting dell, hp, samsung, toshiba, sony, nintendo, microsoft, and everyone else?

And then wal-mart to protest companies whose toys are made in china?

And then clothing stores after that to protest clothing brands sewn in china?

And then the offices of nearly every other company in the country?

No?

Then shut up, hypocrites.

+1(,000,000)
post #44 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... or any number of other products made in China.

china does not equal foxconn
post #45 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

china does not equal foxconn

????
na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #46 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

Without getting into a ridiculously long discussion about the state of the chinese workforce and the laws that govern it...I think its generally accepted that the Foxconn factory has some pretty shady a$$ practices, at least by western standards, and western companies should be holding themselves to a higher standard.

But China is not a western country. Wages are different, their standard of living is different, their culture is different etc.

Who are we in the west to dictate how another country should operate? Isn't that what people complain about all of the time?
post #47 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

????

maybe i misunderstood you, you responded to me and i thought you were saying that if you used ANY product from china you were supporting companies like foxconn.
post #48 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

But China is not a western country. Wages are different, their standard of living is different, their culture is different etc.

Who are we in the west to dictate how another country should operate? Isn't that what people complain about all of the time?

Choosing to not endorse their labor practices by not participating in them is not dictating who they are or how they should operate.
post #49 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

maybe i misunderstood you, you responded to me and i thought you were saying that if you used ANY product from china you were supporting companies like foxconn.

No... if you are protesting at Apple and still buying anything at Walmart or any number of other goods made in China then you are a hypocrite.
na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #50 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

No... if you are protesting at Apple and still buying anything at Walmart or any number of other goods made in China then you are a hypocrite.

agreed
post #51 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

...wow. clearly we have different opinions about the value of human life.

I guess you could also apply that statement to the workers at the X-Box factory who were using the threat of suicide as a negotiating tool.

What value were they placing on human life?
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #52 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I don't think that's necessarily true. If there was some real abuse going on, that could be factually documented, like slave labor or using 9 year old kids to assemble products, then most people would say that is not cool.

However, there is nothing like that going on and everything is just fine and dandy. They're going to have to do better than whining about a 60 hour work week and a suicide rate that is less than the general population.

In fact these are some of the highest paid workers in China. Probably why the suicide rate among foxconn workers is significantly lower than the national average in China (or the US for that matter). Lets not let facts cloud up a good protest though.
post #53 of 161
The kind of hateful responses being posted here are just sad and pathetic, and only give Apple "enthusiasts" a bad name. I suppose this is the kind of crowd AppleInsider has become well known for.

There's nothing hypocritical about using a company's products, and wanting that company to do (even) better.

As an owner of numerous Apple products, I am proud to say that I signed the petition, to put pressure on Apple to do what it can to better the working conditions of workers around the world. It may help, it may not, but it seems like there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.
post #54 of 161
Why is the "AppleInsider Staff" wasting its time reporting on what nobodys (like Mark Shields) are doing? Is AppleInsider becoming a tabloid?" Damn, I hope this isn't a preview of the future of 'Insider.
post #55 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

In fact these are some of the highest paid workers in China. Probably why the suicide rate among foxconn workers is significantly lower than the national average in China (or the US for that matter). Lets not let facts cloud up a good protest though.

The first guest on Real Time with Bill Maher last week talked about Apple and Foxconn. He may have been the guy who did the video of the factory, but I'm not sure.

He mentioned the suicides but failed to compare them to the national average or an average among factory workers in China. He also failed to note the mass suicide threat was at the Xbox plant, not with Apple's products.

Apple will get more of this if they do nothing and likely even more if they do something. Either way they are screwed here; it's the cost of having the most mindshare. Not a bad place to be overall but they will have to address this as sensationalist remora look to feed off Apple.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #56 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by iru69 View Post

There's nothing hypocritical about using a company's products, and wanting that company to do (even) better.

You'll notice that's not the argument here. You read the responses, right?

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #57 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by iru69 View Post

The kind of hateful responses being posted here are just sad and pathetic, and only give Apple "enthusiasts" a bad name. I suppose this is the kind of crowd AppleInsider has become well known for.

There's nothing hypocritical about using a company's products, and wanting that company to do (even) better.

As an owner of numerous Apple products, I am proud to say that I signed the petition, to put pressure on Apple to do what it can to better the working conditions of workers around the world. It may help, it may not, but it seems like there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Oh, cool... moral indignation.
na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #58 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by iru69 View Post

As an owner of numerous Apple products, I am proud to say that I signed the petition

I bet that the people who signed that petition consists of a few misguided Apple users such as yourself, combined with the majority, which happens to be a ton of Fandroids and Apple haters who no doubt will sign anything as long as it's something that is anti-Apple.

And yes, if the conditions are as terrible and as abusive that the whiny and speculative petition claims, then you are directly causing suffering and pain every time you purchase an Apple product. That is hypocrisy.

The next time you buy a new iPhone, at least 3 Chinese workers will be directly suffering because of your inhumane choice.
post #59 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You'll notice that's not the argument here. You read the responses, right?

actually, that has actually been a significant topic of conversation
post #60 of 161
I'm nauseous and frankly puzzled by the vitriol and hyper-defensiveness being displayed here. Talking about how protesters should get a job or how one is going to physically attack them if they restrict "your freedom of movement" is completely absurd and makes the person sound like a fanatic.

Also, no they are not hypocrites. The only thing they state is that they're concerned about the level of proactive regulation and inspection Apple is conducting or is allowing to be conducted as regards their foreign manufacturing. Apple is incredibly admired and while the labor conditions problem is not exclusive to the company, they are in a *unique* position to advocate and lead the charge on it as they have in so many other realms. Whether they choose to do this, or agree with the assertions being made, is their own decision and is another matter. However, I can't understand the invective against the act of protest, which is certainly anyone's right, however misguided you may believe it is.

I think I'm going to stop visiting AppleInsider for news as the forums are atrocious and the most important headlines are related by other outlets anyway. AppleInsider, if I were you, I'd consider setting up some trolling policy or other.
post #61 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmrtzzz View Post

This discussion is embarrasing. Even if Apple is doing not so bad, it always can do better. And as one of the world's biggest companies (in shareholders value) it should. Especially with all that money in the bank. And everyone loving Apple should be supporting initiatives like this.

This isn't an 'initiative'. It's attention whoring. You think Apple will look at a petition like this and think OH GEE WE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS CHINA THING MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK INTO IT. I wonder is this guy actually took the time to read Apple's audit reports? Isn't that 'Apple doing something about it'? Or the fact that wages have increased steadily and substantially since Apple has been involved in the area? Or that they're higher in Foxconn than pretty much any other manufacturing plant?

I'm still waiting on ONE documented incident of 'worker abuse' as this petition states (Foxconn has like a million workers, shouldn't be tough to find one). And I don't consider 'abuse' to be defined as working hours in line with the rest of the industry in that country.

I'm all for 'doing something'. What I'm not all for is taking knee-jerk, ignorant actions that have no basis in facts, context, or knowledge about the situation. This makes things worse, as it misrepresents the realities, promotes ignorance, and gives no new insight or tools for improvement. I can't of another situation where the one company who has done THE MOST to try and improve a situation, out of dozens of others, is solely attacked. Does this not promote ignorance? There are things you can protest if you're concerned about Chinese working conditions (Chinese gvt, etc) but Apple is not one of those things.
post #62 of 161
Yawn. Apple sold 37M phones last quarter and they can barely muster 200K to sign some feel good petition? Big whoop.
post #63 of 161
I suspect CNN and NY Slimes will be all over this. Maybe breaking news on MSNBC. Which is all this guy wants - attention.
post #64 of 161
What a bunch of idiots. Demonstrating at locations of the one company that has, is trying and has committed to making things better for the workers who assemble Apple' products.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

Reply

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

Reply
post #65 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wws View Post

I'm nauseous and frankly puzzled by the vitriol and hyper-defensiveness being displayed here. Talking about how protesters should get a job or how one is going to physically attack them if they restrict "your freedom of movement" is completely absurd and makes the person sound like a fanatic.

Also, no they are not hypocrites. The only thing they state is that they're concerned about the level of proactive regulation and inspection Apple is conducting or is allowing to be conducted as regards their foreign manufacturing. Apple is incredibly admired and while the labor conditions problem is not exclusive to the company, they are in a *unique* position to advocate and lead the charge on it as they have in so many other realms. Whether they choose to do this, or agree with the assertions being made, is their own decision and is another matter. However, I can't understand the invective against the act of protest, which is certainly anyone's right, however misguided you may believe it is.

I think I'm going to stop visiting AppleInsider for news as the forums are atrocious and the most important headlines are related by other outlets anyway. AppleInsider, if I were you, I'd consider setting up some trolling policy or other.

So you support the protesters, but you have a problem with people protesting the protesters?

I see.
post #66 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by iru69 View Post

The kind of hateful responses being posted here are just sad and pathetic, and only give Apple "enthusiasts" a bad name. I suppose this is the kind of crowd AppleInsider has become well known for.

There's nothing hypocritical about using a company's products, and wanting that company to do (even) better.

As an owner of numerous Apple products, I am proud to say that I signed the petition, to put pressure on Apple to do what it can to better the working conditions of workers around the world. It may help, it may not, but it seems like there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I agree with you that it is not hypocritical to use Apple products but also to hold Apple to high(er) standards of ethical and moral behaviour. However, I firmly believe that Apple management and especially Tim Cook, probably expect higher standards of their suppliers and manufacturers in China than even the Chinese government, which should be at the forefront of protecting its citizen's interests. Any of the workers in these factories who are considered migrant workers in their own country, typically it seems, enjoy less rights and privileges than long-term local residents. Western governments and society would find this unacceptable. The Chinese government should be intervening to protect these worker's rights and conditions.

I'd be more suspicious of this petition if its originator professed to never having used, or was antagonistic to, Apple products. He might be misguided (or not) but not on the face of it, hypocritical.

All the best.
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
post #67 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The first guest on Real Time with Bill Maher last week talked about Apple and Foxconn. He may have been the guy who did the video of the factory, but I'm not sure.

He mentioned the suicides but failed to compare them to the national average or an average among factory workers in China. He also failed to note the mass suicide threat was at the Xbox plant, not with Apple's products.

Apple will get more of this if they do nothing and likely even more if they do something. Either way they are screwed here; it's the cost of having the most mindshare. Not a bad place to be overall but they will have to address this as sensationalist remora look to feed off Apple.

The guy was Mike Daisy, and he was simply whoring himself out and exploiting his 15 min of fame, that's all. The segment was painful to watch, especially the fact that it seems a grown man just made a shocking discovery that shit is actually made it China- and it turned his whole world upside down. There's nothing that he stated that is enlightening, or that can make one come to the conclusion that Apple deserves the be condemned and singled out. Again, he's gonna run around and try to exploit the attention he's gotten.
post #68 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ort View Post

Apple needs to be sent a message.

If they continue to manufacture their wares in China, the next thing you know, EVERY electronics manufacturer will follow and EVERYTHING we buy will be made in China.

I can't imagine living in a world like that.

Heh, heh.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #69 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

That guy Mark Shields sounds like a huge pussy and not to mention a hypocrite!

You're supposed to think different. I want to continue to use and love the products you make, because they're changing the world, and have already changed my life. But I also want to know that when I buy products from you, it's not at the cost of horrible human suffering.

Yo, fuck that guy and his hypocritical douchebaggish, whining.

Apple already responded to the criticisms coming from asshats and Apple said "What we will not do - and never have done - is stand still or turn a blind eye to problems in our supply chain".

If anybody has a problem with Apple, then don't buy their products! Don't dictate your liberal fascist demands to Apple as if they give a shit about what you and your pussy friends think!

And don't be blocking and protesting in front of any Apple stores that I will be visiting. If I happen to be near any Apple store (I'm not that far away from Grand Central) and there are some douchebags trying to disrupt access or trying to interfere with my business and restrict my freedom of movement, then I will not hesitate to use physical force to put these protest nazis in their place.

While I also think that these protesters are misguided and ignorant, your post is really scary. You don't seem to be able to make up your mind whether they're liberals or fascists or nazis (concepts that are mutually exclusive). And your propensity to insult and threaten physical force against people who have different viewpoints to your own seems to indicate that maybe you are the Nazi?
post #70 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wws View Post

I'm nauseous and frankly puzzled by the vitriol and hyper-defensiveness being displayed here. Talking about how protesters should get a job or how one is going to physically attack them if they restrict "your freedom of movement" is completely absurd and makes the person sound like a fanatic.

Also, no they are not hypocrites. The only thing they state is that they're concerned about the level of proactive regulation and inspection Apple is conducting or is allowing to be conducted as regards their foreign manufacturing. Apple is incredibly admired and while the labor conditions problem is not exclusive to the company, they are in a *unique* position to advocate and lead the charge on it as they have in so many other realms. Whether they choose to do this, or agree with the assertions being made, is their own decision and is another matter. However, I can't understand the invective against the act of protest, which is certainly anyone's right, however misguided you may believe it is.

I think I'm going to stop visiting AppleInsider for news as the forums are atrocious and the most important headlines are related by other outlets anyway. AppleInsider, if I were you, I'd consider setting up some trolling policy or other.

Apple is in business to make a profit. The end.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #71 of 161
Meanwhile Nokia is quietly sacking another 4,000 European workers and moving the jobs to Asia, that's on top of the 7,000 they sacked last year.

Too bad they closed their American stores (and presumably sacked those workers too) or there would be somewhere to protest outside,

while

wearing

Chinese

made

clothes.

Mr protestor,

are

the

buttons

on

your

shirt

made

of

recycled

plastic

sourced

from

the

Mumbai

rubbish

dumps

and

gathered

by

five

year

olds?
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #72 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

If anybody has a problem with Apple, then don't buy their products! Don't dictate your liberal fascist demands to Apple as if they give a shit about what you and your pussy friends think!.

I was with you until you went off the rails with your political nonsense.
Where do 'liberal fascists' exist outside of Glenn Beck psycho-land?

BTW, classy language.
post #73 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Meanwhile Nokia is quietly sacking another 4,000 European workers and moving the jobs to Asia, that's on top of the 7,000 they sacked last year.

Too bad they closed their American stores (and presumably sacked those workers too) or there would be somewhere to protest outside,

while

wearing

Chinese

made

clothes,

Well played, sir. These protestors are in it for their own reasons. They give not a whit about Chinese workers.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #74 of 161
Do any of these people have a single recommendation as to how one American company can force changes within the world's largest totalitarian country?

"Hey Foxconn... here's 10 billion dollars, and we insist that you pass it on to your workers."
Followed by a big uptick in the Chinese executive yacht industry.

If Apple pulled up stakes (even if it were possible) it would barely make a dent in Foxconn's bottom line.
But if everyone did, then care to go back and tell the now starving, unemployed Chinese workers how you made their lives better?
post #75 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Well played, sir. These protestors are in it for their own reasons. They give not a whit about Chinese workers.

What? That doesn't make sense. Apple elitists who have the money to pour into a new iphone every 18 months are not the people who would otherwise be making minimum wage in an apple processing factory...
post #76 of 161
A worthy cause. I only hope this action spurs improvement from all the companies (i.e., every other electronics company) that are worse than Apple and take these matters less seriously than Apple does!
post #77 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaeth View Post

Choosing to not endorse their labor practices by not participating in them is not dictating who they are or how they should operate.

So Apple unilaterally pull out, HP et al stay in, and Apple goes out of business.
No one has been helped, and way more hurt.

Brilliant.
post #78 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

No... if you are protesting at Apple and still buying anything at Walmart or any number of other goods made in China then you are a hypocrite.

Yes. Just as protesting slavery while eating/wearing products produced by slaves would be hypocritical. Clearly the answer is that slavery NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROTESTED, since it would have meant starvation, right genius?

To give Apple a "pass" on human rights violations because everyone that is offended by it (read: people possessed of the slightest decency) don't immediately cast off all products produced within the paradigm of capitalism and live wild and free like the wolves is ridiculous.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and argue that children in China don't deserve our concern on the grounds that they are chinese, fine.

There are A LOT of people who don't view the world through the nationalistic, ethnocentric, and xenophobic filters that color your meagre moral canvas.

Passing an imaginary national border, to those of us not steeped in the ideologies of a half-witted tribalist dogma, is not at all tantamount to entering into a realm of psuedo-existence where ethical judgments are put on standby until the goods are safely transported back to "reality." As far as I am concerned Alabama and Hong Kong are equally incomprehensible, but the fact that I can't place myself in those contexts doesn't by any means make me eager to apply toto caelo opposed ethical standards to the existence of "Unknown Humans X" and "Unknown Humans Y."

This thread is, by and large, an exhibition of the perverse and pathetic lowliness of the standard 150-200 lbs sack of American refuse. Still, despite your profound unloveliness, I would still contend that you should be given a chance to express your existence with dignity and freedom; whether you choose to do so is another matter.
post #79 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Oh, cool... moral indignation.

Thanks for making me chuckle.

Let's ask these people if they want to sign the petition?

http://news.yahoo.com/many-chinese-w...190754170.html
post #80 of 161
<<removed>>
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store