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Workers' rights petitions delivered to Apple's Grand Central store - Page 4

post #121 of 138
Never mind... I'm obviously being played.
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post #122 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

So just to clarify, you're 'suggesting' impossible 'solutions' to prove that they aren't impossible.

I'd like you to review that statement carefully, and honestly tell if it makes any logical sense to you.

This type of circular logic is a summary of all your posts. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. You come up with fictional solutions that Apple you say 'should do, if they cared', and since they don't then Apple doesn't care. You don't have an ounce of humility in you to aknowledge that just because something seems feasible to you ONLY because you're utterly ignorant of so many things, that doesn't mean it's actually feasible or possible.

"I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat."

Hell, I missed that one. That's the best statement so far.

Suggestions without proof and we're supposed to take this person on their word that these things will work.

I'm a fool for even continuing this stupid discussion. Call me naive... I actually thought there was hope.
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post #123 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

You keep suggesting that Foxconn is somehow worse than other suppliers, so they should be 'cut out'.

I'm pretty sure I only suggested cutting Foxconn out if they didn't comply. I never said Foxconn does worst than other suppliers. You're fabricating that. You keep taking shutting down Foxconn completely out of context and inflating it to make it seem like that was my entire argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Yes, I'm denying Foxconn as a company does not have 'abuse' above and beyond what is normal in China, in terms of hours and wage. And the articles you linked don't give a shred of evidence otherwise. Again, you purposely obfuscate the point when you've been shown to be wrong, changing the issue on the fly and pretending you're arguing something else. A common tactic from people who aren't actually serious about any topic, yet want to 'win' an online argument.

I never said other companies and China don't do this. This is not a solution to solve the world. It's a solution to solve Foxconn because Apple has the power and money to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

You link me to an article that is based on Apple's own audit

No. It's based a lot on CNN's own investigations. I'm guessing you're lying about actually reading and understanding it. Try watching the video. It's pretty clear they are interviewing employees and there are reporters on site.
Andrew
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post #124 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.

What direct knowledge do you have of Foxconn? Unless you work there or are in the supply chain then you know little. Are you basing your information on second-hand information too? China is a country that controls and censors everything. Don't tell me you have some inside unbiased information because you've been there. Nearly everything you know is based on second-hand information. It's embarrassing that you even brought that up because now you're in a really awkward position to defend yourself. Now you're summing up the state of the US economy and our war based on second-hand information. How could you possibly suggest second-hand information is the reason for such complex problems? See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.

My company works with Foxconn on a regular basis, and I have visited four of their thirteen plants in mainland China. I visit their Shenzen plant approximately every six months.

I am also ex-military (having been a signals operator with the Australian army) and served with American personnel overseas.

I also have a Chinese girlfriend.

Your assumption that I don't talk from personal experience is amusing and, despite your failure to answer direct questions about visiting China, your own experience, and personal involvement in this matter before it made the news, I think we're all getting a pretty clear picture of you.

Nobody here has said that this problem can't be resolved, given a reasonable timeframe. It's your ignorant, ill-informed attitude that's raising heckles.
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post #125 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

I'm pretty sure I only suggested cutting Foxconn out if they didn't comply. I never said Foxconn does worst than other suppliers. You're fabricating that. You keep taking shutting down Foxconn completely out of context and inflating it to make it seem like that was my entire argument.


I never said other companies and China don't do this. This is not a solution to solve the world. It's a solution to solve Foxconn because Apple has the power and money to do it.


No. It's based a lot on CNN's own investigations. I'm guessing you're lying about actually reading and understanding it. Try watching the video. It's pretty clear they are interviewing employees and there are reporters on site.

You're such a clown.

- Apple has the 'power and money to 'solve' Foxconn. You state this as a fact, because you said it. This is your biggest problem. People who tend to be the most confident about these things either have a vast quantity of inside knowledge which gives them the ability to make such a conclusion, or they're utterly clueless, because everything is black and white to them. You just say this, and it makes it true? Foxconn probably has 10X Apple's global employee workforce that Apple has, supplies dozens of clients besides Apple, owns dozens of factories.. yet Apple obviously can 'solve' them, whatever the fuck that means. You should email Tim Cook and let him know he could have simply 'solved' (what a neat word) Foxconn, instead of publicizing a report exposing numbers that have subsequently been used as negative PR towards Apple.

- I was obviously referring to the smh site, I can't understand how you wouldn't get that. And yes, I'm lying about reading it, because obviously I want to impress someone like you, who doesn't know their head from their ass. I read it the day it was published. I'm scratching my head about what there is to 'understand' about the CNN 'report' which is based on some quotes from Ms. Chen which are pretty damn benign, and the rest being platonic shit about China we all know (well, except you apparently). Which part twisted your panties, the part where Ms. Chen complained about long hours, or that she was bored? Which part which has specific and shocking allegations towards Foxconn am I supposed to 'understand' or be enlightened by? You obviously included it for a reason. Is it this part?

Quote:
Despite widespread reports of poor working conditions, some experts say Foxconn factories still offer better benefits and surroundings than most factories in China -- providing air conditioning, heating and clean dorms for its employees.

Yeah, didn't think so.
post #126 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

My company works with Foxconn on a regular basis, and I have visited four of their thirteen plants in mainland China. I visit their Shenzen plant approximately every six months.

Why didn't you mention this earlier? This would make you much more qualified on this than me.

Do you care to describe your experiences there?

I do not think 50 years is an acceptable timeframe. I would like to see major improvements in 10 years or less. Call me unrealistic all you want. Things change rapidly when people get up in arms about it. Ex-military personal should understand this concept intuitively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

You're such a clown.

You argue like a 6-year old. Try showing respect if you want it back.
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post #127 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

Why didn't you mention this earlier? This would make you much more qualified on this than me.

Because I'm not trying to prove how informed I am to you. I'm proving how uninformed YOU are to you.

Do I care to describe my experiences there?

What? And write my entire life's essay to prove a point to someone like yourself who has obviously never been to China, HAS a job (and therefore works FOR a business, and knows nothing about CREATING jobs), and obviously has NO CLUE about how these situations are handled other than 'causing a stink'.

That, my dear, would be an utter waste of time.

I'm sorry. I'm going to agree with the clown thing here, as well.

Nobody could be this ignorant on purpose.
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Apple managed the astonishing feat of getting the equivalent of a personal computer into the hands of everybody from eight to eighty year olds, and did so while providing absolutely no instructions...
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post #128 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Because I'm not trying to prove how informed I am to you. I'm proving how uninformed YOU are to you.

Exactly. This is why this is going nowhere. I actually care about your opinion and you'd rather just prove me wrong than try to say anything useful.
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post #129 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

Exactly. This is why this is going nowhere. I actually care about your opinion and you'd rather just prove me wrong than try to say anything useful.

You actually care about my opinion?

That's amusing. You're not even answering direct questions asked of you multiple times.

Your statement that 'proving you wrong' isn't saying anything useful shows the closed nature of your mind.

Changing your mind is a sign of intelligence.

For what it's worth, you may wish to consider that.
Apple managed the astonishing feat of getting the equivalent of a personal computer into the hands of everybody from eight to eighty year olds, and did so while providing absolutely no instructions...
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Apple managed the astonishing feat of getting the equivalent of a personal computer into the hands of everybody from eight to eighty year olds, and did so while providing absolutely no instructions...
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post #130 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

You actually care about my opinion?
That's amusing. You're not even answering direct questions asked of you multiple times.

That's because they are pointless questions only intended to attack me. I'm smart enough to see past that. Even when I tell you I'm interested in your opinion you continue to be arrogant. Arguing with you is pointless because everything will come back to further this 'prove me wrong' mentality. Had you taken a difference stance I would have had a much more productive conversation with you instead of you backing me in to a corner and then ripping apart everything I said. It's no surprise I'm not a logistics expert with years on the inside of Foxconn. I do think what is happening in Foxconn is wrong and I wont back off that point. You take so much offense to a simple idea. You'd rather dismiss these people as morons that don't understand the world because it will make you feel better about your own opinion. You've only reenforced my opinion that the other side to this argument is a group of people who are narrow minded and don't think anything will change the world. This is going to take 50 years because people are going to drag their feet. The same reason the labor movement in the US took so long. It's not impossible to make a major difference in ten years if people work really hard at this problem and enough people band together and bring this issue to light. The worst thing we can do is bury the issue and say we're doing enough.
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post #131 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

You actually care about my opinion?
That's amusing. You're not even answering direct questions asked of you multiple times.

Your statement that 'proving you wrong' isn't saying anything useful shows the closed nature of your mind.

Changing your mind is a sign of intelligence.

For what it's worth, you may wish to consider that.

C'mon, you know damn well that if you are not agreeing wholeheartedly with astrubahr then you aren't saying anything useful.
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post #132 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

That's because they are pointless questions only intended to attack me. I'm smart enough to see past that. Even when I tell you I'm interested in your opinion you continue to be arrogant. Arguing with you is pointless because everything will come back to further this 'prove me wrong' mentality. Had you taken a difference stance I would have had a much more productive conversation with you instead of you backing me in to a corner and then ripping apart everything I said. It's no surprise I'm not a logistics expert with years on the inside of Foxconn. I do think what is happening in Foxconn is wrong and I wont back off that point. You take so much offense to a simple idea. You'd rather dismiss these people as morons that don't understand the world because it will make you feel better about your own opinion. You've only reenforced my opinion that the other side to this argument is a group of people who are narrow minded and don't think anything will change the world. This is going to take 50 years because people are going to drag their feet. The same reason the labor movement in the US took so long. It's not impossible to make a major difference in ten years if people work really hard at this problem and enough people band together and bring this issue to light. The worst thing we can do is bury the issue and say we're doing enough.

I am not attacking you. I don't have a problem with you at all.

Hell, I don't even have a problem with your ignorance.

But if you go around demanding things from other parties without taking to time to fully understand the situation then be prepared to cop some flack. From multiple directions, as you just discovered.

Keep in mind that Google went head to head with China (Chinese government and business are basically the same thing) regarding censorship in 2010 and, despite all their money and clout that you seem to think is so important when negotiating, came off second best and are no longer in the search business there.

Also, of the United State's 15 trillion dollar national debt, approximately 1.1 trillion of that is now owed specifically to China. Even the American government would have trouble achieving what you seem to expect a single American company to do overnight.

For a self-proclaimed Apple fan you seem to have very little knowledge about the actual company that you claim to love. Apple is unlike any other company in the world in the way that they do business and, given a reasonable enough timeframe (which will not be fifty years) they actually may be able to resolve the situation satisfactorily.

However, there are no guarantees.

When it comes to China, try to keep in mind that you are dealing with a totally different country and culture from your own and, just like you, they don't take well to not being treated with respect.

And don't automatically assume that Apple are doing nothing about it. You know no more about what they're doing to resolve the issue than you know the specs of the iPad 3.

So when you suggest solutions, try to do so with a bit more humility, and make damn sure you know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
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post #133 of 138
I'm losing it... I let myself get sucked back into this nonsense.

Step away from the keyboard...
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post #134 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... and who guarantees that the five bucks will go to the workers.

Apple and every other customer that chooses to do the same. They audit the companies so why can't they be allowed to give employees bonuses directly and add a minimum salary to the list of requirements?

RMB 2,000 per month for a 60+ hour week seems to me to be far too low but someone who is familiar with Chinese living and working conditions as compared to Western renumeration can comment on that and suggest a reasonable amount. What monthly salary in China would equate to a minimum wage worker in the US?

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... and why do some people think there is a simplistic answer to these problems. There is a balance in China that seems to be maintained by the government and/or the factories. Who can tell me that Apple would even be allowed to ensure better working/living conditions for the people at Foxconn.

If Apple isn't allowed to ensure better conditions then they take away the contracts. That's the minimum level of responsibility we'd expect from them. It's not as if it would matter to the factory if it's not costing them anything - they get happier workers for free.

I agree that there are never simple ultimate answers but there is a simple problem - workers aren't being paid very well and so are working long hours.

If the pay of each low-level worker is increased significantly via a minimal tax on end products, it stands to reason that they can cut their working hours significantly or afford better living conditions. It will at least do something to improve their quality of life.

One of the comments by the guy who visited the factories was that Apple's yearly audits don't seem to change much year to year so there's little momentum to the improvements.

It may change in time as other countries have but in China people get imprisoned for being part of an unauthorised trade union:

http://www.quora.com/What-makes-non-...legal-in-China

I don't think we can expect the situation will resolve itself. It's certainly not up to forum posters, petition writers etc to determine the solution but someone who is directly involved in the problem and they can feed that information back. Apple is at least doing something, which is more than anyone else but their reports don't really make you feel like everything is ok. They read like 'workers were being poked in the eye every day, we got them to do only the legal maximum of eye-poking' i.e worker abuse continues but within what we feel are reasonable levels of abuse.
post #135 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Apple and every other customer that chooses to do the same. They audit the companies so why can't they be allowed to give employees bonuses directly and add a minimum salary to the list of requirements?

RMB 2,000 per month for a 60+ hour week seems to me to be far too low but someone who is familiar with Chinese living and working conditions as compared to Western renumeration can comment on that and suggest a reasonable amount. What monthly salary in China would equate to a minimum wage worker in the US?

It might seem like a simple fix, bring up the wages and working conditions in one factory or maybe two, but, as much as we'd like it to be like that, it gets much more complicated than that. My guess is that the government would have to step in at that point. You can't go messing with the equilibrium without expecting consequences.

Quote:
If Apple isn't allowed to ensure better conditions then they take away the contracts. That's the minimum level of responsibility we'd expect from them. It's not as if it would matter to the factory if it's not costing them anything - they get happier workers for free.

I agree that there are never simple ultimate answers but there is a simple problem - workers aren't being paid very well and so are working long hours.

If the pay of each low-level worker is increased significantly via a minimal tax on end products, it stands to reason that they can cut their working hours significantly or afford better living conditions. It will at least do something to improve their quality of life.

One of the comments by the guy who visited the factories was that Apple's yearly audits don't seem to change much year to year so there's little momentum to the improvements.

It may change in time as other countries have but in China people get imprisoned for being part of an unauthorised trade union:

http://www.quora.com/What-makes-non-...legal-in-China

I don't think we can expect the situation will resolve itself. It's certainly not up to forum posters, petition writers etc to determine the solution but someone who is directly involved in the problem and they can feed that information back. Apple is at least doing something, which is more than anyone else but their reports don't really make you feel like everything is ok. They read like 'workers were being poked in the eye every day, we got them to do only the legal maximum of eye-poking' i.e worker abuse continues but within what we feel are reasonable levels of abuse.

There you said it yourself, and with proof. You mess with the equilibrium and there are consequences. If Google wasn't big enough to push around the Chinese government then what makes yo think that Apple can do it.

As far as taking away contracts. You've got to be kidding. Apple has a contract with shareholders as well. Sure it might hurt Foxconn in the short run but what is worse for them, being at odds with Apple or being at odds with the government. Samsung and a dozen other companies (not NA companies, by the way) will be more than happy to take Apple's place and most likely will get better contracts as we watch the gains that Apple has brought to the factory slip away.

We also have to ask ourselves, who will be the arbiter in all of this. Do we, the people of developed nations, get to say what is good enough for the Chinese people just because developed nations have factories there? What if the Chinese people want more? What if they want U.S. standards? Do we get to say that they've got enough and should be satisfied?

What if raising the conditions at the Foxconn plants causes riots in other factories asking for the same conditions. Do you think the Chinese government will stand by idly and let this occur. Equilibrium. Change is slow, but, yes, it must occur, but it shouldn't be rushed imo... if history is any sort of lesson for us.

Nobody is saying that things should just stay the same but when you start to meddle too much in the conditions of another country then you can expect consequences, not necessarily good ones. These things take time. Lots of time. Apple is changing the conditions. There have been improvements.

To the best of my knowledge, change must come from within. Only then will it be a lasting change. Unless, of course, we want to take this issue to the ultimate bargaining table and that aint hyperbole.
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post #136 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post

Wrong.

First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.

You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.

The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.

Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.

I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.

Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.

Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.

First, I never mentioned you specifically as you seem to suggest.
Second, how did I contradict myself?
Third, the only kind of substantive "movement" I have seen lately by these bleeding heart types was a bowel movement on a New York police car. I'm not impressed.
post #137 of 138
I've been thinking about this whole worker's rights thing, and how we can improve the working conditions for the 999,983 Foxconn Employees that didn't commit suicide this year, and I think I've finally cracked it:

1. Purposely exclude the Chinese government from any and all negotiations with one of their largest business chains and tax contributors (I hear they have no interest in having a say in how the people of America dictate what will be happening with their people or way of life anyway).

It's not like they have a history of control or anything.

Or the will to back it up.

Or nukes.

2. Implement a 'Great Door of China' policy by beginning construction on a huge RED (symbolize the color of socialism/traffic light color for STOP) door that allows Foxconn employees unhappy with working conditions to leave.

3. Considering the relative ease in which a certain Korean contractor was recently replaced after experiencing a brief period lacking inspiration, Apple should fully consider just 'taking their work elsewhere' by rebuilding the entire supply chain of factories on ships that constantly circulate the world going where 'the good working conditions are'. A pirate flag will be hoisted from the lead ship stating, 'Let's be Pirates!'.

4. Ignore stockholder requests for a dividend and give every one of the million Foxconn employees $1000 instead.

5. Cut iPhone and iPad production in half to cut down on working hours. If this doesn't leave workers in a rested enough state, cease production altogether.

6. Enrol in our 'Foxconn Exchange Worker Program' (please note that all shipping/handling/Mandarin language-learning costs are the responsibility of the member).

7. The implementation of the 'E Category' of iDevices. When a consumer purchases an Apple device, they can select whether they would prefer the 'standard' version or the 'Ethical' version. Such products will cost 45% more to purchase, and will only be available eighteen months after the standard version, but will be clearly labelled (e.g. ePhone 4, ePad 2, etc...) for recognition.

The above policies, combined with the world-famous American work ethic and business acumen that has got it where it is today, should be more than enough to improve working conditions between now and 2014 when those million or so Foxconn employees are replaced by robots.

Google it if you don't believe me.

Good job everybody!

Mission accomplished.
Apple managed the astonishing feat of getting the equivalent of a personal computer into the hands of everybody from eight to eighty year olds, and did so while providing absolutely no instructions...
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post #138 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

I've been thinking about this whole worker's rights thing, and how we can improve the working conditions for the 999,983 Foxconn Employees that didn't commit suicide this year, and I think I've finally cracked it:

You forgot point number 8:

8. We all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
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