Workers' rights petitions delivered to Apple's Grand Central store - Page 4

Originally Posted by Slurpy

So just to clarify, you're 'suggesting' impossible 'solutions' to prove that they aren't impossible.

I'd like you to review that statement carefully, and honestly tell if it makes any logical sense to you.

This type of circular logic is a summary of all your posts. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. You come up with fictional solutions that Apple you say 'should do, if they cared', and since they don't then Apple doesn't care. You don't have an ounce of humility in you to aknowledge that just because something seems feasible to you ONLY because you're utterly ignorant of so many things, that doesn't mean it's actually feasible or possible.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

You keep suggesting that Foxconn is somehow worse than other suppliers, so they should be 'cut out'.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

Yes, I'm denying Foxconn as a company does not have 'abuse' above and beyond what is normal in China, in terms of hours and wage. And the articles you linked don't give a shred of evidence otherwise. Again, you purposely obfuscate the point when you've been shown to be wrong, changing the issue on the fly and pretending you're arguing something else. A common tactic from people who aren't actually serious about any topic, yet want to 'win' an online argument.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

You link me to an article that is based on Apple's own audit

Originally Posted by astrubhar

Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.

What direct knowledge do you have of Foxconn? Unless you work there or are in the supply chain then you know little. Are you basing your information on second-hand information too? China is a country that controls and censors everything. Don't tell me you have some inside unbiased information because you've been there. Nearly everything you know is based on second-hand information. It's embarrassing that you even brought that up because now you're in a really awkward position to defend yourself. Now you're summing up the state of the US economy and our war based on second-hand information. How could you possibly suggest second-hand information is the reason for such complex problems? See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.

Originally Posted by astrubhar

I'm pretty sure I only suggested cutting Foxconn out if they didn't comply. I never said Foxconn does worst than other suppliers. You're fabricating that. You keep taking shutting down Foxconn completely out of context and inflating it to make it seem like that was my entire argument.


I never said other companies and China don't do this. This is not a solution to solve the world. It's a solution to solve Foxconn because Apple has the power and money to do it.


No. It's based a lot on CNN's own investigations. I'm guessing you're lying about actually reading and understanding it. Try watching the video. It's pretty clear they are interviewing employees and there are reporters on site.

Despite widespread reports of poor working conditions, some experts say Foxconn factories still offer better benefits and surroundings than most factories in China -- providing air conditioning, heating and clean dorms for its employees.

Originally Posted by GTR

My company works with Foxconn on a regular basis, and I have visited four of their thirteen plants in mainland China. I visit their Shenzen plant approximately every six months.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

You're such a clown.

Originally Posted by astrubhar

Why didn't you mention this earlier? This would make you much more qualified on this than me.

Originally Posted by GTR

Because I'm not trying to prove how informed I am to you. I'm proving how uninformed YOU are to you.

Originally Posted by astrubhar

Exactly. This is why this is going nowhere. I actually care about your opinion and you'd rather just prove me wrong than try to say anything useful.

Originally Posted by GTR

You actually care about my opinion?
That's amusing. You're not even answering direct questions asked of you multiple times.

Originally Posted by GTR

You actually care about my opinion?
That's amusing. You're not even answering direct questions asked of you multiple times.

Your statement that 'proving you wrong' isn't saying anything useful shows the closed nature of your mind.

Changing your mind is a sign of intelligence.

For what it's worth, you may wish to consider that.

Originally Posted by astrubhar

That's because they are pointless questions only intended to attack me. I'm smart enough to see past that. Even when I tell you I'm interested in your opinion you continue to be arrogant. Arguing with you is pointless because everything will come back to further this 'prove me wrong' mentality. Had you taken a difference stance I would have had a much more productive conversation with you instead of you backing me in to a corner and then ripping apart everything I said. It's no surprise I'm not a logistics expert with years on the inside of Foxconn. I do think what is happening in Foxconn is wrong and I wont back off that point. You take so much offense to a simple idea. You'd rather dismiss these people as morons that don't understand the world because it will make you feel better about your own opinion. You've only reenforced my opinion that the other side to this argument is a group of people who are narrow minded and don't think anything will change the world. This is going to take 50 years because people are going to drag their feet. The same reason the labor movement in the US took so long. It's not impossible to make a major difference in ten years if people work really hard at this problem and enough people band together and bring this issue to light. The worst thing we can do is bury the issue and say we're doing enough.

Originally Posted by island hermit

... and who guarantees that the five bucks will go to the workers.

Originally Posted by island hermit

... and why do some people think there is a simplistic answer to these problems. There is a balance in China that seems to be maintained by the government and/or the factories. Who can tell me that Apple would even be allowed to ensure better working/living conditions for the people at Foxconn.

Originally Posted by Marvin

Apple and every other customer that chooses to do the same. They audit the companies so why can't they be allowed to give employees bonuses directly and add a minimum salary to the list of requirements?

RMB 2,000 per month for a 60+ hour week seems to me to be far too low but someone who is familiar with Chinese living and working conditions as compared to Western renumeration can comment on that and suggest a reasonable amount. What monthly salary in China would equate to a minimum wage worker in the US?

If Apple isn't allowed to ensure better conditions then they take away the contracts. That's the minimum level of responsibility we'd expect from them. It's not as if it would matter to the factory if it's not costing them anything - they get happier workers for free.

I agree that there are never simple ultimate answers but there is a simple problem - workers aren't being paid very well and so are working long hours.

If the pay of each low-level worker is increased significantly via a minimal tax on end products, it stands to reason that they can cut their working hours significantly or afford better living conditions. It will at least do something to improve their quality of life.

One of the comments by the guy who visited the factories was that Apple's yearly audits don't seem to change much year to year so there's little momentum to the improvements.

It may change in time as other countries have but in China people get imprisoned for being part of an unauthorised trade union:

http://www.quora.com/What-makes-non-...legal-in-China

I don't think we can expect the situation will resolve itself. It's certainly not up to forum posters, petition writers etc to determine the solution but someone who is directly involved in the problem and they can feed that information back. Apple is at least doing something, which is more than anyone else but their reports don't really make you feel like everything is ok. They read like 'workers were being poked in the eye every day, we got them to do only the legal maximum of eye-poking' i.e worker abuse continues but within what we feel are reasonable levels of abuse.

Originally Posted by astrubhar

Wrong.

First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.

You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.

The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.

Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.

I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.

Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.

Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.

Originally Posted by GTR

I've been thinking about this whole worker's rights thing, and how we can improve the working conditions for the 999,983 Foxconn Employees that didn't commit suicide this year, and I think I've finally cracked it: