Workers' rights petitions delivered to Apple's Grand Central store - Page 3

The million who signed the petition will line up to buy the new iPad 3, the new iPhone 5, the new Macbook Air, the new Apple TV ...

Apple has enough money to hold true to this threat. You act as though Apple has never cornered an industry and got their way. Foxconn would not be happy if Apple quit business relations. Give me one real reason Apple can't do this and I'll take the title of clueless. Just one reason.

Apple has already done that which is why Foxconn workers are among the highest paid in China for the type of work they do.

Try to keep up with the times.

So what about suppliers further down the line?

By the time your noble crusade gets further down the supply chain you might want to notice that Apple has already been active in improving conditions there as well.

Incidentally why don't you tell us about the clothing and shoes you are wearing now, were they made in China?

What are the conditions like for the people who make them?

Pretty bad and it's a shame nobody is doing anything about it.

Not surprising, you've shown yourself to be incredibly thick.

You're asking what you can do? One thing I would suggest is actually going out and gaining some knowledge, instead of your incessant feel-good posts. Learn about the global economy. About China. About the Chinese government. About the global supply chain. About suppliers in general in China. About the average Chinese standard of living, and average income. Learn the reason why tens of thousands line up to hope to get a job at a company like Foxconn. Learn about the industrial revolution. When you learn this, you will start understanding example how massively Apple, and other companies are benefitting China and the Chinese people and economy. Learn about the drastic increase in Foxconn wages the past couple years. Try to understand the mechanisms of how that happened. Learn the concepts of relativity, environmental factors, and local economies. You clearly don't have a clue about any of this stuff. When you've gained a bit of wisdom perhaps you can to the point where you can come up with rational, sober, well thought out actions that in your mind would alleviate conditions of a very complex issue (which of course you believe to be simple through your ignorance). You're clearly nowhere near this level now, and your rambling is just that. Rambling.

My prediction is that you'll do none of these things. You won't take the effort and dedication to understand anything, but will decide to continue mindlessly posting about issues you understand nothing about, and convincing yourself you're some noble voice of humanitarianism.

Where was the printer and ink made that printed out these petitions?

Where was the paper made that they were printed on?

How about the cardboard box the copies of the petition were delivered in?

It would be fairly surprising if the answers aren't China, China, China.

What are conditions like for the workers who make all these things?

1. Where would Apple go?

2. How long would they be out of product?

3. How much money would they lose?

4. How many lawsuits would they have to defend against shareholders?

5. How long before they lost enough momentum and share to force them out of business?

I can keep going...

That rose color actually isn't natural. Take off the glasses.

Clueless.

Unlike Apple who ARE doing things to improve conditions for workers throughout their ENTIRE supply chain, not just Foxconn.

Simply amazing. My reason was explicitly stated in that post you quoted. It's only 4 lines or so, shouldn't take you too much effort to find it. Try some reading comprehension.

1. Anywhere they want.

2. They have contracts with Foxconn so they would be fine for quite a while. You act like Foxconn is the only assembly facility in the world. Getting supplies to the new facility would be the tricky part but even that isn't overwhelmingly complicated. There are plenty of companies who would kill to have an Apple contract and be willing to do anything to please them.

3. Quite a bit of those billions they have. This wouldn't be cheap but it would be noble. Once the factory opens they'll probably be even more profitable since they cut out the middle man.

4. Why would they sue? It's business as usual for Apple.

5. None. The new factory could be running in six months. Foxconn deploys new factories much quicker than this.

I guess we should throw our hands in the air and let Foxconn treat their employees terribly. That's what you're suggesting.



This is a delusion. Very recent investigations show that there is tons of bad things going on at Foxconn even with Apple's auditing.

Is the suicide rate at Foxconn higher or lower than the rest of China?

It's lower because most of China is living in extreme poverty. This shouldn't be a reason to justify working conditions at Foxconn.

Actually, it's a perfect reason to justify working conditions and here's a perfect statistic which proves that there aren't any problems there to be concerned about.

I quickly found this from Feb. 2011, where it says that there were 17 suicides at Foxconn.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/0...linchina/all/1

That is extremely low and more people should be killing themselves to fall in line with worldwide averages.

In the US, according to what I see on wiki, the suicide rate is 11.8 per 100,000 people, so times that figure by ten and we get 118 for a million people.

So there you have it. Not enough people are killing themselves over there, and they can consider themselves to be extremely lucky as their suicide rate is extremely low.

So what exactly are people protesting? That their suicide rate is far lower than ours?

The sheer amount of stupid in this post just made my head explode. 'Cut out the middle-man'...you're fucking serious, aren't you? That's scary. Please stop posting.. some people could have given you the benefit of the doubt, had you not exposed your vapidity. Every post you make you dig your self deeper into a hole you can no longer emerge from. I noticed you did exactly what I predicted you would do- ignore my advice about getting some facts, and just keep on posting garbage. You're lazy, and refuse to educate yourself. Pretty shameful.

You want Apple to manufacture their own circuit boards? screens? screws? batteries? Memory? You know that Apple deals with dozens of companies that supply and manufacture these components, right? It's why it's called a supply CHAIN. And every single one of these suppliers is based in China, each of which is specialized in manufacturing one or more of these components, then passing it along the chain, until it gets to final assembly. Foxconn itself outsources to many companies. There's probably 100+ companies involved directly and indirectly in creating iPhone components. You're suggesting that Apple ABSORBS this entire supply chain, bringing it in-house? In your 1st paragraph you state there are plenty of companies that would kill to have apple contracts, then contradict yourself and say they will cut out the middle-man..which is it?? And since you want this magical Apple factory to NOT be in China, do you suggest all these components get shipped back and forth from China to wherever the hell this factory will be? This makes logistical sense to you? I can ask you another 100 questions you won't have a clue about how to answer.

Everything is 'simple to you', because you don't have the faintest clue of what you're talking about. Yes, things are simple when you refuse to think about them. Back in reality, they're not. People are rationally responding to you, explaining why the things you suggest are ridiculous and impossible. Your response is basically 'Who cares, Apple should do it anyway, they have money'. Seriously, how old are you?

I talked about cutting Foxconn out of the picture. You're the one who jumped to the conclusion that I meant the entire supply chain. These parts are delivered to Foxconn from Samsung, Qualcomm, Skyworks, Toshiba, OmniVision and others. Foxconn does not produce these parts. Placing the factory somewhere else just means they need a different address. They're placing millions of dollars in parts on each plane. It's not that expensive.

Your best argument now is that I'm an idiot? I guess human rights violations still aren't enough to prompt drastic change. You're also assuming Foxconn wont do anything about it. Apple is a huge contract and they will very likely comply to their requests. This was all a hypothetical solution. Meanwhile, you have yet to product a single solution. Guess it's just easier to criticize. I'm being very professional and respectful. I should be asking you how old you are.



Do you really think that is funny?

Maybe he can console himself by buying Samsung, smug in the knowledge that the suicide rate in South Korea is only 31.2 per 100,000, the second highest on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate

Yes, I do indeed find that extremely funny.

But the point of my post was not to be funny, but to provide a factual comparison of suicide rates, and I have to say that these "concerned" people who are protesting really strike me as ignorant and uninformed individuals who really don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.

Yeah, I noticed that myself when I was on that page.

I wonder what makes Lithuania such a horrible place to live, since they seem to win the gold medal for worldwide suicide rates. I mean, I don't even think that they make any iPhones in Lithuania. Do they even have any Apple stores there?

Have you ever been to China?

Maybe Lithuania has a really corrupt judicial system.

Defence "The deceased backed into a knife my client was using to peel an apple, seventeen times."

Judges verdict "Obviously suicide, case dismissed"

So your solution is for Apple to pull out of Foxconn, causing poverty for the laid-off workers and increases in the suicide rate?

These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.

If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.

Actually, it sounds like he wants all of the manufacturers to pull out of China and therefore drive China back to the stone age.

Fucking hippies and their simplistic plans.

... oh, and by the way... the guy is a poe. If he's not a poe then...

Also, I wonder where Greenpeace is to tell her not to waste so much paper.

What I find irritating about activists these days is that it's so easy now to hear bad reports from journalists, put up an eCampaign and get a bunch of signups to print out and feel like they are personally making a difference when in fact they're not really doing anything to solve the problem.

It reminds me of the Film Actors Guild:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbuVa6GEJUg

"As actors, it is our responsibility to read the newspapers and then say what we read on television like it's our own opinion"

Armchair activists are more of a nuisance than anything - uninformed, unwashed, media whores wasting paper. People who actually go to China and report what they see directly have far more impact, like the person in the link posted earlier:


A very interesting viewpoint from an Apple fan who visited the factory to see the conditions:

"How often do we wish more things were hand-made? [We say] I wish it was like the old days, I wish things had that human touch. There are more hand-made things than there have ever been in the history of the world."

Still, these are all accounts of problems that Apple and others are aware of as he points out but the solutions aren't forthcoming. Yes we expect someone to do something but why Apple and what do they do? Are they the main target because they earn the most, are they the target because they will care the most?

Apple isn't going to stop using the factories in China so the best we can hope for is that they contribute to better working conditions (beyond what they already do), even if it means taxing us for it. Apple has sold 250 million units over the past 5 years. If Apple had put a $5 tax on every unit and distributed that to 100,000 workers directly who assembled iOS devices, each worker would make $2,500 extra per year = 15,700 Renmibi. The yearly salary is around 24,000 Renmibi.

This is surely enough to either allow them to cut their working hours to reasonable levels or afford what they want like save up for an iPad within the yearly product cycle. Apple can put the tax rate right on the purchase page:

iPad: $499
Delivery: free
Asian worker sponsorship (assurance that every worker worked under 60 hours, was not underage and earned a reasonable wage): $5
Feeling like you made a difference: priceless

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your iPad for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them workers
And would you start to feel bad?

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your five bucks
Who will?

Freedom costs five bucks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVY7qDjrPZk

... and who guarantees that the five bucks will go to the workers.

... and why do some people think there is a simplistic answer to these problems. There is a balance in China that seems to be maintained by the government and/or the factories. Who can tell me that Apple would even be allowed to ensure better working/living conditions for the people at Foxconn.

This is a slow slow process. Any person who has studied the labor movement in the U.S. and Britain will get it... anyone else... not so much.

[it's like saying that starvation can be fixed overnight. Yes it can... in a perfect world. There are just too many complications that get in the way, though. That doesn't mean to say that people aren't trying]

Absolutely bang spot on.

Why would you simply be satisfied with Foxconn being 'cut out of the picture' and not all of Apple's secondary suppliers? Do you not realize that the conditions of these suppliers are probably much worse than those at Foxconn, because they don't have any attention and scrutiny on them?

Yes, that's my best argument to you. I'm not sure what else to call your arguments, as they don't make any sense, are not well thought out, and there's no other way to say it. Then when called out for your implausible scenarios, you tend to throw your hands up and say 'HEY GUYS AT LEAST IM DOING STUFF YOU'RE JUST CRITICIZING'. Pointing out the enormous holes in your suggestions is much more useful to people than actually reading your suggestions. You you simply want to eliminate the place with the best working conditions in Apple's supply chain (Foxconn) and are simply cool with everything else staying the way it is. If Foxconn works for Apple in your view, then so do all these other suppliers. You keep parroting on that Foxconn abuses their workers like a broken record, and haven't provided a shred of fact or evidence to back up this 'abuse', besides hours and wages that are superior to all other suppliers in China. And your solution is eliminate Foxconn because of these 'abuses'. How.. completely useless.

Wrong.

First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.

You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.

The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.

Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.

I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.

Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.

Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.

So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...116-1q1wt.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/06/wo...ker/index.html

And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.

Keep believing that you're not delusional... you'll go far...

Where did Slurpy call you uneducated?

That's just embarrassing...

Right here:



This thread is going to go nowhere so I'll leave you with this:

There are people who want to change the world and then there are people who say it can't be done.

Meanwhile, really think about what this means:

"Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me. Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful, that's what matters to me." - Steve Jobs

This is what Apple and Steve Jobs stands for.

You never answered the question about whether you had been to China.

You never answered the question about what experience you have in handling these matters in order to address them in the time frame that you seem to expect.

I laughed my ass off when I saw you quoting the SMH as a source.

SMH is one of those sensationalist newspapers that constantly presents stories in the most slanted and biased ways and do so only to generate 'click through' by suckers like yourself. Facts are an afterthought when it comes to that publication, but Apple bashing is something that seems to come quite naturally to them. Ninety-five percent of the stories about Apple by them are negative.

You, my friend, are nothing but a destroyer.

You won't get your hands dirty yourself, will do nothing more involving than putting your signature on a bit of paper, do nothing but complain, and even seem unwilling to educate yourself.

I work in China on a regular basis, and your utter lack of understanding of their culture, your own culture, and business practices in general is astonishing. Your 'solutions' are all utterly theoretical, lack any depth or understanding, and seem to have been garnered from nothing but the media and press reports, and we all know how honest, upfront, and lacking in agenda these institutions are.

It is this behavior of laziness and acting on second-hand information that currently has a country as great as America both economically broke and mired in wars with multiple countries.

First become a master of yourself, before you become a master of others.

Try going out into the world and experiencing it before you start dictating and demanding how it should be, you ignorant, silly, little girl.

Obviously knowledge and education are two separate things.

I'm not sure who is saying it can't be done. I've seen you say this a few times but I just can't find anyone who is saying that.

... and let me get this straight:

1. You quote Steve

2. You say that Steve stands for what he says in the quote

3. Then you disparage Steve's name over and over again by saying that he was not doing enough to the point where you seem to say that he didn't care

Which is it sunshine, Steve was a nasty ogre who was not doing enough for the Chinese people or Steve was a guy who was trying to do the right thing by finding ways to improve worker's conditions slowly but surely.

Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.



What direct knowledge do you have of Foxconn? Unless you work there or are in the supply chain then you know little. Are you basing your information on second-hand information too? China is a country that controls and censors everything. Don't tell me you have some inside unbiased information because you've been there. Nearly everything you know is based on second-hand information. It's embarrassing that you even brought that up because now you're in a really awkward position to defend yourself. Now you're summing up the state of the US economy and our war based on second-hand information. How could you possibly suggest second-hand information is the reason for such complex problems? See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.

... and we keep telling you that they are continuing to change things and to make things better but you want everything done overnight with a magic wand.

It just makes you look stupid.

Trust me, the only person you're embarrassing is yourself. Again, utterly predictable. You think I haven't read these 2 articles? You can't even seem to follow your own logic. You keep suggesting that Foxconn is somehow worse than other suppliers, so they should be 'cut out'. You just linked me to 2 articles which are completely useless in proving your point, or pointing out types of 'abuse' specific to Foxconn.

The CNN article is just a necessary parroting of the media attention recently and suddenly surrounding the issue, focusing on complaints such as 'long hours', etc. The smh article is about APPLE'S OWN AUDIT REPORT FINDINGS- ie. stuff that Apple itself has made public to everyone. Yet, this is supposed to be a smoking gun you're throwing in my face? You think I haven't read Apple's report in its entirety? I wouldn't even be posting here if I haven't. Yes, I'm denying Foxconn as a company does not have 'abuse' above and beyond what is normal in China, in terms of hours and wage. And the articles you linked don't give a shred of evidence otherwise. Again, you purposely obfuscate the point when you've been shown to be wrong, changing the issue on the fly and pretending you're arguing something else. A common tactic from people who aren't actually serious about any topic, yet want to 'win' an online argument.

You link me to an article that is based on Apple's own audit- unaware of the irony that you keep insisting Apple is not doing enough, that they're ignoring the situation, yet the 'smoking gun' evidence of abuse you link to is from Apple THEMSELVES, who have therefore investigated the issue more thoroughly and deeply than anyone else, and brought things to light that noone else has, which people like you then use as ammunition against them. The report is encompasses all their suppliers (100+), yet again your 'solution' to to get rid of ONLY Foxconn..just because it's probably the only one you know the name of- even though it has a better record than any of the other suppliers included in the numbers, which I have repeated to you a dozen times but which somehow you can't seem to get. Your solutions are still completely asinine, and your logic even more so.

I never suggested that it be done overnight. Apple's auditing isn't working. Care to find a report about how Foxconn operates at Apple's standards and that other news reports are misleading? Surely there is a reputable source out there.

I think this kid is just jiving us. Nobody could be that naive.

So just to clarify, you're 'suggesting' impossible 'solutions' to prove that they aren't impossible. I can pull 'solutions' out of my ass too, that doesn't prove anything to anyone- especially since I haven't the faintest clue about they can be implemented.

I'd like you to review that statement carefully, and honestly tell if it makes any logical sense to you.

This type of circular logic is a summary of all your posts. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. You come up with fictional solutions that Apple you say 'should do, if they cared', and since they don't then Apple doesn't care. You don't have an ounce of humility in you to aknowledge that just because something seems feasible to you ONLY because you're utterly ignorant of so many things, that doesn't mean it's actually feasible or possible.