Apple to disrupt notebook space with radically redesigned MacBook Pros - Page 7

I'm waiting for holographic displays. Avatar anyone?...

Mmm nah, I'd rather not use a GUI based on a taco salad bowl.

Nice try, but HP's Macbook clones (the Envy 15 and 17) allow for mSATA SSDs in addition to optical drives, and multiple HDs in a package roughly the same size as the current Macbook Pros. You don't have to go to a 15lb, 4" behemoth with thirty minutes of battery life to get those features.

First of all, the 15" Envy is 16.8% thicker than the 15" MBP and the 17" Envy is 30.6% thicker than the 17" MBP.

Secondly, it's silly to suggest that "mSATA SSDs" require a "15lb, 4" behemoth with thirty minutes of battery life" when it should be clear that the SSD blade will take up less space and use less power than other options.

I expect that the next MacBook Pro will have most or all of these features which the MacBook Air does not have:
- 25 to 35W CPUs
- discreet graphics
- two (rather than one) SSD slots
- Ethernet port
- Full-speed Thunderbolt port
- HiDPI display
- HD webcam
- 10 hour battery
- 8GB RAM BTO option

I'm not sure if there is a font size big enough for people to notice your points. Anybody that considers an optical drive to be a pro feature these days is far behind the curve. There is only a few specialties left where such a drive might be considered a requirement and even in those industries demand for optical drives is declining.


I can also see the pros getting the high resolution screens first. Mainly because they will have the graphics chops to drive them well. It is still a mystery with respect to Ivy Bridges performance driving such screens, so I'm not sure if the AIRS will transition to high resolution screens right away.

Beyond that Apple is doing really well in the Notebook portable space these days. They will be careful to avoid screwing that up. That won't stop them from innovating of course but it will cause them to make sure that a new MBP release keeps the performance component of the line up available. Contrary to the opinions of many notebooks still lag performance wise in a number of aspects, the market has yet to meet the needs of every user. Thus I can easily see Apple offering both a 15" AIR and a MBP. It is all about different strokes for different folks.

See *sigh* I'm starting to think that both names might be dead. Seriously. It gives them a LOT of leeway to ignore "pro" features.

One product: MacBook.

Four sizes: 11", 13", 15", 17".

No discrete graphics, no Ethernet port, two Thunderbolt ports, two USB ports, in/out audio in a single port, and, yeah, room for two of those SSD sticks (not standard size drives) in the 15" and 17" models.

Starts with 4GB of RAM, 8 and 16GB BTO.

Everybody has concerns. My hope here is that Apple sees a clear line between the AIR like machines and the MBP.

The could doesn't solve half the issues people think it solves. When ever I see people offering it up as a storage solution I have to cringe a bit.

I really don't worry about caps for software installations. Seriously I just drive down to the local library, especially if it is a rather large install. For business that won't work but I just see software installs as a non issue.

On the other hand relying on any sort of network for access to critical media, data or other files is just stupid. Even at work, at a relatively large company, the network can be very congested and at times unusable.

Unreasonable data caps do suck. I'm not sure what can be done about that. Right now it is the only way to deal with network congestion in a non discriminatory way.

For a MBP it would be stupidity beyond belief. I work in another industry and find that a network port is more important than any other port on my MBP. This would be automation in industrial settings. Between the lack of a ethernet port and room for secondary storage these are the big reasons I haven't gone the AIR route.

The big issue that I have observed with USB is the issue of reliability. In that regards USB can't be relied upon for network use. In fact it is pretty much terrible for RS232 use. In automation circles RS232(or various other serial flavors) and ethernet are still the biggest interface standard going, if you can't drive them reliably then your goose is cooked.

Apple does an excellent job with their ethernet interface, I would suspect that it is best in the class. Again I see indications that people really don't understand the importance of a well done ethernet interface, probably because they have never used one.

Given a choice between a SSD & HD combo and no optical and an optical without the potential of a combo I would go for the SSD & HD combo without pause. The reason is pretty simple, right now I carry an external drive with me where ever I go, but I seldom use the internal.

I agree with the issue with regards to the playing of movies but honestly I didn't know that was such an issue. In any event a TB based dock would take care of that issue I would imagine.

GigE has to stay, you will get no argument there.

I've never made extensive use of Firewire. I can see TB gaining far greater acceptance than Firewire ever did. In that regards I'd like to see it implemented as two ports on future MBP's. That is a bit of gamble but I just see TB going much farther than Firewire ever did.

That would be the most economical choice right now. The combo would give us the best performance at the least cost for bulk storage.

After owning one I'm not a big fan of matte screens at all. Implemented on a high-resolution screen they would be a joke.

I'm all for better Wifi, but where does one put al of those antennas?

Apple is a little behind on implementing this tech on the Macs. This is mostly a software issue right now though.

This would probably be more useful than on an iPad. So looking forward to it.

No! No. no. As much as i hate USB for its reliability issues I use two ports every day and find my self wishing I had another on my MBP.

Actually it would suck royally. I have a HD disk connected all the time to my MBP plus my iOS device intermittently, USB storage sticks of various flavors and other assorted dongles.

Interesting as at one time I was really hoping for that feature to be built into the notebooks. These days Id rather see them offer an expansion bay / port, that could be sued for multiple purposes. Why an expansion port instead of USB, mainly for the speed and reliability of PCI-Express. Granted that speed isn't needed for LTE but it could be put to use for other options.

Really, if there is anything in a MBP that can keep the unit useful for a long time it is a dGPU. The ability of software to take advantage of such hardware is only increasing, even web browsers are now taking advantage of GPU acceleration. Say all you want about the improved GPU in Ivy Bridge but it remains to be seen if it is really all it is cracked up to be. Even then dGPU's help simply by having their own RAM. This is the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw your post, so I have to ask who would want such a notebook to replace their MBP?

As to some of the other requests:

Ethernet is still needed, it is one of the best features of the MBP.

Combo audio ports suck! Such ports might work for AIR users but can be a real negative for flexibility.

Two TB ports I agree with. I'd like to see Firewire replaced by one of those.

Frankly I'd like to see three USB ports.

As to SSD storage two wouldn't be too bad but I suspect that Apple will likely go with an industry standard here of some sort. Various corporations are working on a new SSD card format so I wouldn't be surprised if Apple was involved.

RAM needs to be on standard mobile cards supporting the latest standards. No special purpose hardware for the MBPs!

They're still immensely helpful for a lot of people. What you're seeing (and hating) is the use of cheap matte coatings to cut costs. The problem is that margins on lcd panels aren't that great so it tends to invite such measures.

Want? Likely no one. But again, this isn't a MacBook Pro anymore. It's just one big MacBook family.

Don't be surprised if they pull something like that.


Even with 802.11ac?


Mhmm.


I was going to say three, but my mental image ran out of logic board space.


Same with this. I wanted at least two USB and couldn't shoehorn in a third alongside two Thunderbolt ports.


Isn't the MacBook Air's stick a standard connector?


I would hope the RAM at least is still user-upgradable on the 15" and 17" models.

I'm back in pessimist mode here. Killing the ODD for good will make Apple go Air-crazy with the MacBook Pro family. They'll upgrade a lot at once (extra Thunderbolt, 802.11ac, etc.), but there will be tradeoffs that people more familiar with traditional laptops just won't like at all.

But that's to be expected. Apple will be creating the very first transtops should the MacBook family get a redesign next update. "Transtops" being the name I'm using for computers between the old style laptop (a bunch of different ports, an optical drive, and what have you) and the fully touchscreen designs that we'll see around the end of the decade.

You are right about current matte approaches, they are cheap low quality coatings. Sadly I believe Apple could demand any type of anti reflective coating they wanted and get it. There is much in the way of vacuum coating available these days.

In the end I'm still of the opinion that traditional matte displays adversely affect quality. I compare my 2008 MBP matte screen to my iPad 1 and the iPad is a far better screen for viewing quality.

Sure. Ethernet is faster and more secure.

On top of that 802.11ac has barely even made a mark with shipping products. That said, that standards body is much better than for 802.11n so it's completion and adoption should happen much faster. That means I won't be surprised if the next MBPs offer it. That does meas we'll also need new AirPort routers either at or before their launch (hopefully running iOS and with some server-esque features)

That said, i never use my ethernet port. I probably never will again but that doesn't mean i don't think it's needed. The only place I think it can fit without altering the port size or making some very stupid extended port lip like you see in some thin notebooks is on the back right side which i think means Apple probably can't go past 0.90" (22.86mm), estimation, for the thickest part of the machine.

Which would be foolish considering how well Apples laptops are selling. I see both a 15" AIR and a new MBP coming.

Apple has done stupid things in the past so anything is possible. In this case I just don't see it happening. The reality is the market for a15" AIR is entirely different from that for a 15" MBP. More so I want a far more versatile and powerful MBP.

In many cases you just don't have a choice.

Remember loosing the optical leads to much more access to the side of the machine.

The other factor is the power budget. Each TB and USB port needs a allocation from the machines power budget. I believe that would be ten watts for each TB port, plus whatever standard each USB port supports.

I don't see a problem on a 15" MBP.

Not from what I understand.

Yes a requirement for a Pro computer.

You are assuming that they would drop far to many pro features or not add significant new capabilities. I really don't understand this idea that Apple can't support two dramatically different laptop lines. From my perspective it is as easy as pie, Apple pie that is! 😱

I see no reason for Apple to pursue the touch screens. I actually see a move to an on board Siri like IA before the end of the decade. Something that handles as much as possible on board before going to the web. It is interesting that Apple calls Siri beta software, I suspect it is a feature that will morph into something Star Trek like.

It is physically the same as PCI Express Mini Card but electrically incompatible. So far OWC makes cards that work in the MBA. I'm not sure if that is licensed by Apple or if it's the exact spec created by the Serial ATA International Organization in 2009.

Are there no truly mobile pros here? If Apple pushes forward on this, they risk doing to their mobile pro market what they've done to their desktop and enterprise pro markets, which is to chase them away with a stick. This is not to say that I don't like technologies such as instant on and Thunderbolt, but I NEED 750 GB on onboard storage (would prefer more) and legacy firewire ports -- and I need them without having to pay a premium in either dollars or weight. Even the external DVD will be a pain, but it is acceptable because of the abysmal failure rates of the internal DVD units squeezed into Apple's already too-tight enclosures. Yes, I look forward to the a lighter unit, a thinner unit, but what I really could use is longer battery life, and the ability to add a second hard drive, or to swap them in and out myself (same goes for batteries). In my dreams I'd really like a more water resistant unit, a retina display, and a touch screen and a track pad that work with inkwell. Come on Apple, it has been over 20 years, let's move beyond expecting your customers to pretend that portable "desktop replaceables" are truly the best mobile computer Apple can produce. Let's put the same high-quality, cutting-edge, no-compomises, goal-oriented technology into your mobile pro development efforts that you put into the iPhone. Let's move beyond our parent's mobile computer.

Going forward, all Apple laptop RAM will be fixed on the motherboard, just like with the MacBook Air. Apple have been leaving too much money on the table with people buying the minimum RAM configuration and then loading up with third party RAM.

I just immediately assigned that space to battery, because I figured Apple would do that as well.


I'm not saying they can't; just saying that given the rumor, it doesn't appear as if they want to.

Could they still be selling a MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro? Sure. But they already trimmed one out


OS XI will be multitouch. And it won't run on "laptops" like we understand them now.

It's gonna be the same level of change as going from the Altair to the Apple ][ or the Apple ][ to the Macintosh. That certainly doesn't preclude the inclusion of Siri.

At first I was afraid the new MacBook Pros were gonna be MacBook Airs with low performing GPU's and CPU's. But looking at MacBook Pro teardown pictures I now think it's entirely possible to make a "MacBook Air Pro".

I'm all for the new MacBook Pros, having now owned simultaneously a Pro and and Air and wished for the longest time I could combine their features. Hooray that Apple is doing so. My only concerns are two:

1. Will Apple's new machines permit users to autonomously set the size of system typefaces? I'm sitting here at my Air and swear the type is no more than 4 points large, which means I have to put on my reading glasses and turn up the brightness to max.

2. For such great hardware, why saddle us with trash software like Lion and Mountain Lion (which, from what I've read here, merely exacerbates the things that Mac computer users most dislike about iOS applied to anything other than mobile devices? Why not take this opportunity to come up with something truly novel and exciting, on the order of OS 9 or Snow Leopard when they were introduced?

Fix those, this longtime user is once again a happy camper. Then bring on the new MacBook Pros!

HiDPI mode? It's already in OS X, so I'd imagine so.


Stopped reading right there.

Come off it.

1. How does one invoke HiDPI? I need to see this for myself. No Air owner I know has detected a way to enlarge system type, only screen type -- and then only awkwardly, with multiple commands often for a single browser page, the entire barrage having to be repeated for each subsequent page. If that's what you mean, no, it's not a solution.

2. You have to be kidding if you think these "100-new feature!" versions of Mac OSX made more compatible with iOS do more than (a) offer more developer-dictated futzing in return for diminished real user control and (b) make users more dependent on Apple Inc. for basic services, free for now but obviously just waiting to be monetized -- once the customers are path-determined not to change vendors -- and make third-party developed applications and content less accessible or more expensive via Apple Store/iTunes?

Why with such revolutionary hardware at hand -- thank you, Apple, it's much appreciated, seriously -- would Apple saddle us and suboptimize its new machines' performance with a version of a last-generation OS gummed up with iOS behavioral models? Apple's Hardware and Software divisions should talk to one another more often, and resist Marketing's pleas that their real audience should be digital device users. Yes, it's market logic. But maybe Apple will benefit more in the long run by following insanely-great-computing logic.

And there is exactly why Apple should leave RAM upgradees to the purchaser. Having a completely closed machine with no user access to RAM or battery makes for a much more expensive and frustrating user upgrade path. Not a good thing.

It's possible, and with Apple, anything can happen. But I doubt they'll go that way.

The MacBook Air cuts corners. Even Apple realise that, although they managed to pull off cuting corners without hurting sales. (Quite the contrary!)

But for a Pro laptop (which is still a very popular product), that just isn't acceptable.

Optical drives are gone, that's pretty much a given. Form factor will be thinner, whether tapered or not remains to be seen. But there will probably be a healthy complement of ports: USB, Thunderbolt, audio, of course, but also: Ethernet is required for business users that shun wireless networking, FireWire 800 is widely used in pro audio and video markets and Thunderbolt adapters are too slow to market to offer a viable replacement. I hold out hope for the ExpressCard slot on the 17", but mostly because I have an ExpressCard 3G modem. I fear that'll be out, even though there should be plenty of room for it.

Internally, removing the optical drive will make room for more design freedom. Perhaps the cooling design can be improved so the Pro's can operate on a single fan. mSATA SSD card for the system drive, and a 2.5" drive bay (perhaps 1.8" on a 13" model or even across the board) for secondary SSD or HDD storage. SO-DIMM memory, slightly larger battery.

That's my prediction.

.tsooJ

In what way?

Connectivity, processing power, screen real estate, battery life.

.tsooJ

That's called engineering. Those CULV processors cost about as much as the the standard notebook processors used in the MBPs that cost about as much as the desktop processors used in the iMacs.

To cut corners is to do something the cheapest or easiest way. That does not define using a milled bottom and top casing, using an alkali-aluminosilicate sheet glass on the display and trackpad, using a lithium-ion polumer batteries that are designed in-house, or any of the other aspects of the MBAs. If you want a system that cuts corners there are plenty of $400 notebooks out there.

Whatever blows your skirt up.

.tsooJ

This is really silly. These are design choices much like those made on the macbook pro, imac, or mac pro. Not everyone likes them, but they're conscious choices. The macbook pro still exists if you require a laptop. The mac pro still exists. Apple's pricing relative to what you get back in performance is pretty high regardless. Only a few industries that are really reliant on power have stuck with Apple as their primary machine choice. If you really need every bit of power possible in a laptop the choice should be obvious anyway. It's either the 15" or a Lenovo running Linux.



That's the difference between engineering something to be compact, yet as powerful as possible within a defined space, and engineering something with the goal of cost effectiveness in mind where smaller display panels and things contribute to the goal of cost minimization. You're paying more for higher performance per cubic inch, ounce, and watt.

There is no realistic way to combine the features of the two machines. The problem is clear, there is no way to get top of the line performance out of an AIRs chassis.

support for resolution independence is being built into Mac OS. How it will be realized on hardware is a different question.

That statement is asinine. Many of us very much like the direction Apple is taking here, in many cases it makes moving from your mobile device to your Mac transparent. This has been done without harming Mac OS/X one bit. In some places we actually are getting vastly improved functionality.

You do realize Snow Leopard delivered the underlying technology to deliver the functionality we are now seeing.

I really doubt that! Happiness requires a bit of objectivity, that seems to be a problem in your case. Seriously look at the improvements in Lion with an open mind,

This is what I think is going to happen to the Macbook Pro 2012.

1. The optical disk drive is going to be gone. There is no question about this one because of what is written in this article:
("They're all going to look like MacBook Airs," one person familiar with the new MacBook Pro designs told AppleInsider.)

2. At this time, technology is not available to make a Macbook Air be as equal or powerful as a Macbook Pro, because it is simply too thin. A Macbook Air would require an ultra low voltage cpu while a Macbook Pro would use a standard voltage cpu. With the optical disk drive removed, Apple would certainly be able to make the 2012 Macbook Pro be more thinner and lightweight, but not as thin as a Macbook Air.

This means 2 things will possibly happen:
A. A thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, with no ODD, dedicated graphics, and a standard voltage cpu, could eliminate the need for the Macbook Air. Therefore, there will be no more Macbook Air, only the Macbook Pro.

B. Apple refreshes the 2012 Macbook Air with an ultra low voltage cpu, Intel integrated graphics, and flash storage, along with the redesigned 2012 Macbook Pro (no ODD, dedicated graphics, standard voltage cpu, Retina Display.

Therefore, there will be no merging between the Macbook Air and the Macbook Pro. Either Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and removes the Macbook Air. Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and keeps the Macbook Air.

I expect all Mac laptops introduced in 2012 to come standard with 4GB of RAM directly on the motherboard using 2Gbit chips and most of them to offer an 8GB BTO option using 4Gbit chips. I think we'll probably have to wait until 2013 for 8Gb DRAM chips and the option of 16MB on the motherboard -- though it's possible that Apple might offer 8GB standard and a 16GB BTO option on the 17" model by using 32 rather than 16 memory chips.


I don't see anyone complaining anymore about iPhones and iPads not having user upgradable memory or user-replacable batteries. One of my best friends swore he would never buy a phone that didn't have a user-replaceable battery and promptly bought the first iPhone the week it first became available. The MacBook Air hasn't suffered in sales for lack of user-replaceable memory.

I buy a new iPhone, iPad, and Mac laptop every year. I'm as likely to want to upgrade my laptop's memory after using it (something I last did in 2006) as I am likely to want to rebuild my car's engine (something I did decades ago). In the 21st century, user-serviceable products are an anachronism.

Well, we don't actually know this, but I agree with you on it.


Well, that and the fact that they use completely different chips…


Nor SHOULD they.


"Could", but won't. People love the MacBook Air.


Not in a laptop! Not for another two years!


Sure there will.


Again, that's nonsense.


Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter MacBook Pro and renames both models to "MacBook". One family, one name.

Indeed they do. But that doesn't mean there isn't also a large market for a more elaborately spec'ed macBook Pro.

.tsooJ

Nor did I claim there wasn't! What he said was a little vague, but it can be interpreted two ways:

1. 'kill the MacBook Air' means 'stop selling the 11" and 13" MacBook Air in favor of just the 13", 15", and 17" MacBook Pro in a thinner, Air-like format'.

And that's nonsense.

2. 'kill the MacBook Air' means 'stop selling the 11" and 13" MacBook Air in favor of a new 11" MacBook Pro alongside the 13", 15", and 17" models in a thinner, Air-like format'.

Which ALSO makes no sense because well, plenty of obvious reasons, the first of which being 'that's exactly the same as keeping the Air around'.

Here's what I see happening:

MacBook Air name: Dead
MacBook Pro name: Dead

One name: MacBook.
Four sizes: 11", 13", 15", 17".

Thinner, like the Air is now.
No optical drives across the board.
The two sizes of MacBook Air that exist now stick around exactly as they are, but with Ivy Bridge and updated graphics and other specs.
The 13" MacBook Pro is killed off entirely.
The 15" MacBook Pro starts with dedicated graphics and the 17" obviously also has them.
Standard AIR SSD sticks in the 11" and 13". Still HDDs in the 15" and 17". Obviously SSD options, but those're also 2.5" drives.

I think that's all entirely realistic. Apple CAN'T go to Air SSD sticks for all models because of the price of the sticks and the fact that the storage is so pathetic you'd have more people jump ship to Windows than if the Mac Pro was killed off.

Unless there has been some sort of revolution in NAND chips recently. One of the other mods whose name starts with M (can't remember which) mentioned they're working (or already had) chips that jammed a terabyte of storage into the size of a postage stamp.

I have no idea how much those cost, but it sounds like that if those exist, having a stick comprised of FOUR chips of 250 GB each (or even 200 GB each. Or a stick of two chips of 200, even) would be much cheaper than a single terabyte chip. As for how expensive those would be, I don't know, but the amount of storage in the Air is unacceptable to be put in the 15" and 17", and Apple knows they can't just jack the price of the 15" and 17" up by $1,000 each in exchange for larger SSD stick capacities.

I avoided Lion because of some unresolved bugs with things that I use. If I update to a new Mac in a couple months, then I will be using Lion. It always takes some time for everything I require to be functional with a new OS. Typically it's around three months. This time it still hasn't happened entirely, but SL is working fine so I'm not terribly stressed on it. Your comment on how they can't combine the two is much like what I said about decisions in design. No company designs without any kind of compromise. They figure out their priorities when they make the device.



Whether you own it or someone else does, people always talk about the longevity of macs. The loss of replaceable batteries can be annoying. Some of the ipods sucked on batteries. That battery needs to be viable for several years to justify it as not everyone wishes to bother with upgrading their phone on an annual basis. it's not that expensive to do the same with a laptop, but I hate dealing with wiping data and selling the old one. The point was that the batteries require a strong life expectancy to justify such a design decision. They shouldn't make the entire thing into a junk product. Looking at much earlier generations, batteries didn't last as long as they can today.


They do trend toward these screen sizes overall. I think if the ipad becomes more self sufficient it "may" cannibalize the 11" in the longer term. That would be a long way off. I'm glad you actually have some sane concept of this stuff. Putting in stick ssds without losing a lot of capacity would be incredibly expensive, and you're right, it would cause a lot of people to wait it out for one or more cycles beyond their intended purchase.

Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter MacBook Pro and renames both models to "MacBook". One family, one name.[/QUOTE]

You said, "both models". Are you saying that Apple is going to keep both models, the Air and the Pro and rename them both to Macbook. Or, are you saying that Apple will merge the Air and the Pro together, to be named Macbook?

You said, "both models". Are you saying that Apple is going to keep both models, the Air and the Pro and rename them both to Macbook. Or, are you saying that Apple will merge the Air and the Pro together, to be named Macbook?

The MacBook Air & MacBook Pro names aren't going anywhere. There will be an 11-, 13-, and 15-inch MacBook Air. And there will be a 15- and 17-inch MacBook Pro. The differentiating features between the two lines will be as is it now: Thin & light — Air; Power (no pun intended)*—*Pro.

It's clear the optical drive is a goner in the next MacBook Pro. This probably allows Apple to move the hard drive (still a hard drive or 2.5-inch SSD, no blade SSDs like the Air yet) to the front of the machine, in same general vicinity where the optical drive is in present MacBook Pros. Along with Apple's ability to design custom, non-removeable batteries, it will allow Apple to taper the design to make it similar stylistically to the Air. I think Apple is trying to use some of the Air's popularity as a halo on its Pro aesthetic.

Now as far as removing the optical drive — this may seem obvious since Apple completely omitted it from the last revision of the Mac mini, however, I know a lot of people that still use it & think removing it is a bad idea. I say get rid of it. I hardly use my optical drive any more. And I'm sure whatever Apple does here may have implications on the next round of iMac and Mac Pro (god willing) updates.

Because they do not have a choice or say in the matter.


Good for him.


Good for you. The majority do not.


I note that you use "I" frequently. Apple build devices for the mass market. Exactly what you require in a device does not necessarily mean others want it. The majority of people won't or cannot afford to buy a new notebook every year so user upgrading RAM is very nice and a cheaper option. Same goes for battery when it will eventually reach EOL which in most cases will be long before the notebook has.