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Apple attacks Motorola's efforts to block iPhone 4S using standards patents, asks for huge damages - Page 4

post #121 of 213
2/12/12 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

If it were up to me, any anti-Apple trolls would not be allowed on this forum and any violators would be banned for life (one strike and you're out!). Hell, if it were up to me, people would not be allowed to access this forum, unless they were on a Mac or iOS device. I don't come here for discussions with anti-Apple people, as I am not interested in anything that these people have to say. I am only interested in speaking with fellow Apple users. But that of course is not up to me, so all I can do as a user is to forcibly knock down any ignorant comments which anti-Apple people spew from their mouths. As opposed to what some other people might believe, I don't believe that ignoring ignorance is the best method for dealing with trolls. I believe that they should be confronted head on and killed as quickly as possible

I'm a little late to this thread but what the hey.
I like your style, Apple][. Sure, every child deserves to play in the local sandbox, but if some little dude decides he's going to use it as a toilet, I say, send him thither and yon.

You do rant a little too Apple-supportive at times, but hey, if a guy loves the gal he loves, why can't he occasionally go waggly-eyed over her attributes. So someone else thinks she's a hound snack, well, some thoughts should be kept in one's head.

Oops.
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post #122 of 213
2/12/12 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I'm actually beginning to doubt that Android phones outsell iOS phones.

Really? Was it the fact that they've NEVER reported real numbers of sold devices that tipped you off?

Honestly, I can't understand why all these websites that put up charts with units sold, percentages of marketshare and all that other stuff decided to TAKE THAT CRAP and post the fake numbers.

They need to be posting charts with asterisks in every company's cells except Apple's.
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post #123 of 213
2/12/12 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Really? Was it the fact that they've NEVER reported real numbers of sold devices that tipped you off?

Honestly, I can't understand why all these websites that put up charts with units sold, percentages of marketshare and all that other stuff decided to TAKE THAT CRAP and post the fake numbers.

They need to be posting charts with asterisks in every company's cells except Apple's.

What I find most hilarious is the fact that the iPhone actually stole share from Android's supposed numbers in the holiday quarter.

I had mentioned a month before the quarter was announced that I thought the next gen iPhone, version 6 (not the 4S), would sell over 45 million phones during the holiday quarter and would steal significant share from Android. One of the resident trolls denounced that statement by basically saying that all the fanbois were always talking about a miracle phone that would kill Android and that it would never happen.

Well, it already happened but never did I think that version 5 of the iPhone would be the one to do it.

All Android vendors should be really worried about what is coming out next from Apple. The numbers will be much easier to decipher.
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post #124 of 213
2/12/12 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yep.

Concerning the damages, I imagine they could only ask for damages caused as a result of the product removal from the stores:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/03/...la-patent-win/

I don't think it lasted long but could still amount to hundreds of millions given how many products they sell. I wonder why the 4S wasn't taken down, it is a 3G device too. Maybe Apple modified the 4S so that it doesn't violate the patents in question.

Apple seems to be making around $1b/week profit so any long term banning that Motorola succeeds with and is ruled unfair could cost them a good amount of money, although Apple's profits are from worldwide sales so damages will be ruled against German sales.

Actually, Apple can sue for more than just lost phone sales. They can also sue for damage to their brand and any effect the market share swing causes on their relationship with developers and customers.

Granted, those things are hard to prove, but it's been done. And for a high profile case like this, Apple would be foolish to ignore them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post

Bet you didn't know that the suicide rate at Foxcon is almost identical with the Chinese national average. I know that won't change your attitude but still...

Not true. The suicide rate among Foxconn employees is far LESS than the suicide rate in China as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Fueller is talking crap like he always does.

He fluffed about the Oracle case in how it will severely damage Googles case.

90+% of the suit brought by Oracle was dismissed.

Fueller is all talk, no walk.


To Apple: The FRAND issue is in Germany, not in California.

This is just Apple's attempt to get something in the door in its home town as all the others have failed.

So what are your credentials that makes you more of an expert than Mueller?

Furthermore, even if 90% of the Oracle suit was dismissed, how does that prove that Oracle can not hurt Google/Android? After all, as Microsoft says, it only takes one bullet.
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post #125 of 213
2/12/12 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

What I find most hilarious is the fact that the iPhone actually stole share from Android's supposed numbers in the holiday quarter.

I had mentioned a month before the quarter was announced that I thought the next gen iPhone, version 6 (not the 4S), would sell over 45 million phones during the holiday quarter and would steal significant share from Android. One of the resident trolls denounced that statement by basically saying that all the fanbois were always talking about a miracle phone that would kill Android and that it would never happen.

Well, it already happened but never did I think that version 5 of the iPhone would be the one to do it.

All Android vendors should be really worried about what is coming out next from Apple. The numbers will be much easier to decipher.

It should be expected that Apple's once-a-year release cycle will cause a huge spike in iPhone adoption but what I find surprising is that...
  1. the iPhone 4 and 3GS are the 2nd and 3rd most popular selling handsets, respectively.
  2. Apple sold more smartphones than any other smartphone vendor.
  3. the iPhone 4S sold more units than Samsung who sells across the gamut.
  4. iOS was sold on more devices than Android OS.
It shows it's not just one aspect of the handset market Apple is dominating, it's overall. At this point Android has a lowered installed base than iOS yet it should be higher simply because there are so many vendors using this "open source" OS so for it not to be far in front makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with Android.

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post #126 of 213
2/12/12 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It shows it's not just one aspect of the handset market Apple is dominating, it's overall. At this point Android has a lowered installed base than iOS yet it should be higher simply because there are so many vendors using this "open source" OS so for it not to be far in front makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with Android.

I think they honestly believed they could win on specs alone but there is only so far you can go with that, especially when it's not working in the first place.
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post #127 of 213
2/12/12 at 10:53am
Surprised this was missed:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02...ns_on_patents/

Essentially, the EU is really pissed at Motorola and Samsung. Can you say "the fine is 10% of the global turnover" without smiling?
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post #128 of 213
2/12/12 at 11:06am
I wonder how much cheaper devices would be if everyone stopped resorting to breaking FRAND agreements or suing over silly IP patents that should never have been issued in the first place.
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post #129 of 213
2/12/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

So a few people committed suicide? Big fucking deal.

When you grow up you will understand how crass that statement is.
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post #130 of 213
2/12/12 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

When you grow up you will understand how crass that statement is.

As stated it's crass but at its core he has a point. We've discussed that the suicdes per capita are well below the national average for China... and the US. That isn't to say that it's lower than for a factory or that any are acceptable in the sense that you should allow or turn a blind eye to them, but you have to accept that suicides are likely to occur from time to time for various reasons.

The fact that it's a company with a million employees working to build products for the company with the largest mindshare in the world means that both the likelihood of suicide and the focus by the media on them will be high.

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post #131 of 213
2/12/12 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

As stated it's crass but at its core he has a point.

Oftentimes he has a point. He just doesn't understand how to craft it so that his reader is willing or able to see it. An interesting point of view gets wasted by having a poor understanding of how to relay it to the others here.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #132 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oftentimes he has a point. He just doesn't understand how to craft it so that his reader is willing or able to see it. An interesting point of view gets wasted by having a poor understanding of how to relay it to the others here.

I thought he relayed it perfectly.
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post #133 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

As stated it's crass but at its core he has a point.

You mean points like this one.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...6&postcount=93

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Actually, it's a perfect reason to justify working conditions and here's a perfect statistic which proves that there aren't any problems there to be concerned about.

I quickly found this from Feb. 2011, where it says that there were 17 suicides at Foxconn.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/0...linchina/all/1

That is extremely low and more people should be killing themselves to fall in line with worldwide averages.

In the US, according to what I see on wiki, the suicide rate is 11.8 per 100,000 people, so times that figure by ten and we get 118 for a million people.

So there you have it. Not enough people are killing themselves over there, and they can consider themselves to be extremely lucky as their suicide rate is extremely low.

So what exactly are people protesting? That their suicide rate is far lower than ours?


or

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...5&postcount=34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Some Foxconn workers are apparently whiners. They had better get back to work so that they can get busy and assemble my iPad 3. The conditions there are just fine. So they work 60 hours? Big fucking deal, plenty of people work more than that. Some ignorant people like to mention their suicide rate, which happens to be less than the general population, that's awesome for them! Congratulations to them, they are very fortunate.

These people can also thank Foxconn that they're not working in some rice field someplace, I bet that's more of a back breaking job than working for Foxconn which also probably pays a bit more than standing in some rice field.

So in conclusion, quit your whining, get back to work and assemble my new iPad 3, comprende?

If you don't like it, then quit your job. Whining will get you nowhere.


Fanboisim is not an excuse for insensitivity or racism.
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post #134 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I thought he relayed it perfectly.

I suppose he did if the reader gets past the initial impression that someone's suicide isn't something anyone should be concerned with. I can see that's probably not what he intended (can't be certain of course), as could you. A casual visitor may not get him at all.

That's why I consider the way he composes many of his messages to be ineffective as a valid reflection of his intended point.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

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post #135 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Surprised this was missed:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02...ns_on_patents/

Essentially, the EU is really pissed at Motorola and Samsung. Can you say "the fine is 10% of the global turnover" without smiling?

That will help with EU's debt problems.
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post #136 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oftentimes he has a point. He just doesn't understand how to craft it so that his reader is willing or able to see it. An interesting point of view gets wasted by having a poor understanding of how to relay it to the others here.

Sorry, am I missing something... By failing to address his "style" of writing you are (doubtlessly unintentionally) condoning his puerile and childish rants.

He is entitled to his point of view but that does not grant him the right to be offensive.
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post #137 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I suppose he did if the reader gets past the initial impression that someone's suicide isn't something anyone should be concerned with. I can see that's probably not what he intended (can't be certain of course), as could you. A casual visitor may not get him at all.

That's why I consider the way he composes many of his messages to be ineffective as a valid reflection of his intended point.

As you mentioned, nobody can be 100% sure of what the hell he means... but, he gets people talking around his comment and, eventually, more understanding comes out of it.

As far as being ineffective... when the hell have you ever seen even a well composed argument not torn to shreds by at least one person who has a bur up their ass.
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post #138 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

When you grow up you will understand how crass that statement is.

What is crass are the bozos who continuously keep making snide comments about suicides in factories that make Apple products in some misguided quest to score brownie points in the eyes of their peers.

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post #139 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

Sorry, am I missing something... By failing to address his "style" of writing you are (doubtlessly unintentionally) condoning his puerile and childish rants.

He is entitled to his point of view but that does not grant him the right to be offensive.

Offensive, schmensive. It's all subjective.

... and who the fuck uses words like "puerile" on a public forum. Now that's offensive.
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post #140 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That will help with EU's debt problems.

We don't have debt problems- we skilled in the art of racking up debts
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post #141 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As far as being ineffective... when the hell have you ever seen even a well composed argument not torn to shreds by at least one person who has a bur up their ass.

Point taken, and I completely understand that one.

melior diabolus quem scies

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post #142 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

Sorry, am I missing something... By failing to address his "style" of writing you are (doubtlessly unintentionally) condoning his puerile and childish rants.

He is entitled to his point of view but that does not grant him the right to be offensive.

He doesn't make apologies for it, nor should he need to. He's tolerated by the mods, and the regulars know where he's coming from. If he's truly concerned that his message gets thru then he may modify his "style". . . or perhaps not. He's the only one who really knows the message he's trying to convey and perhaps it's just the way he intended.

I don't take offense at it as long as he's not attacking other forum members on a personal basis.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

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post #143 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

he gets people talking around his comment and, eventually, more understanding comes out of it.

I don't agree. All that I have seen is people bandying around stats from Wikipedia either for or against. No one has demonstrated an understanding of the factors involved in occupational suicide rates, which I suspect is quite different from national rates of suicide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As far as being ineffective... when the hell have you ever seen even a well composed argument not torn to shreds by at least one person who has a bur up their ass.

Now that is a good point.
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post #144 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

I wonder how much cheaper devices would be if everyone stopped resorting to breaking FRAND agreements or suing over silly IP patents that should never have been issued in the first place.

I reckon it wouldn't be a lot. Trouble is that the numbers of units these guys are talking about it makes a very nice pile of money for the patent owner. (eg Apples 37m iPhones in a quarter, and someone makes 20c off each one - $7-8m dollars.)
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post #145 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

I don't agree. All that I have seen is people bandying around stats from Wikipedia either for or against. No one has demonstrated an understanding of the factors involved in occupational suicide rates, which I suspect is quite different from national rates of suicide.

... and, you prove my point exactly.
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post #146 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

He doesn't make apologies for it, nor should he need to. He's tolerated by the mods, and the regulars know where he's coming from. If he's truly concerned that his message gets thru then he may modify his "style". . . or perhaps not. He's the only one who really knows the message he's trying to convey and perhaps it's just the way he intended.

I don't take offense at it as long as he's not attacking other forum members on a personal basis.

I appreciate that he's straightforward and plainspoken but I don't care for the bigotry and racial overtones so I've put him on my ignore list

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post #147 of 213
2/12/12 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I appreciate that he's straightforward and plainspoken but I don't care for the bigotry and racial overtones so I've put him on my ignore list

Yes, you're right... bigotry and racism should not be ignored (or should be in this case... hmmmm)... that's when it goes too far.
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post #148 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As you mentioned, nobody can be 100% sure of what the hell he means... but, he gets people talking around his comment and, eventually, more understanding comes out of it.

As far as being ineffective... when the hell have you ever seen even a well composed argument not torn to shreds by at least one person who has a bur up their ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

I reckon it wouldn't be a lot. Trouble is that the numbers of units these guys are talking about it makes a very nice pile of money for the patent owner. (eg Apples 37m iPhones in a quarter, and someone makes 20c off each one - $7-8m dollars.)

I suspect that it is much higher than that. I don't know which of Microsoft's IP Android may have used but it accounts for something like $10 per Android phone. Then factor in the fact that WP7 assures OEMs no IP headaches (ie they must be paying Apple some royalities and visa-versa), then factor in the inflated prices that firms have paid to purchase portfolios
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post #149 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

No one has demonstrated an understanding of the factors involved in occupational suicide rates, which I suspect is quite different from national rates of suicide.

On another thread a few weeks a few posters (myself included) tried to find info on that very subject. There doesn't seem to be any.

Things we considered: How does their suicide rates compare to the Chinese population when you remove those are physically or mentally handicapped, too young, too old or otherwise can't work? How does the suicide rate compare to the age ranges that committed suicide at Foxconn? What about the level of financial demographic from which they came? Does the dorm situation make it worse, better, or just give it a sense of being worse because suicides are more likely to occur on company property?

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post #150 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:01pm
I challenge any liberals whose vocabulary consists of the word "puerile" to refute any of the claims or facts that I've laid out, if they take issue with it. I provide links which clearly lay waste to the absurd and false claims coming from certain people who constantly whine and repeat lies about Apple. Prove me wrong, though I of course won't be holding my breath while waiting for any liberal to prove me wrong.

Sometimes the truth hurts, get used to it. What is truly offensive is people who would exaggerate, lie and spread misinformation, attempting to score a point for their feel good, baloney cause of the week, such as the very low suicide rates amongst a certain group of people, and attempting to somehow smear Apple with that total non-issue.

And when the liberal can't win an argument based on either facts or logic, there's always the old "racism" card which these people can pull out of their pockets. The fact of the matter is that I couldn't care less where these suicides were happening. Suicide is a totally normal thing and it takes place all over the world. No race, color or creed is spared.
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post #151 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

On another thread a few weeks a few posters (myself included) tried to find info on that very subject. There doesn't seem to be any.

Things we considered: How does their suicide rates compare to the Chinese population when you remove those are physically or mentally handicapped, too young, too old or otherwise can't work? How does the suicide rate compare to the age ranges that committed suicide at Foxconn? What about the level of financial demographic from which they came? Does the dorm situation make it worse, better, or just give it a sense of being worse because suicides are more likely to occur on company property?

When we talk about work place/occupational suicides maybe we should study farmer suicides in India in the "suicide belt".

Now, if Foxconn was showing those numbers then we'd have something to really worry about.
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post #152 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

When we talk about work place/occupational suicides maybe we should study farmer suicides in India in the "suicide belt".

Now, if Foxconn was showing those numbers then we'd have something to really worry about.

I think that suicides in general, anywhere in the world, can often be work related. Why do people kill themselves to begin with? It's usually over some silly reason, like money, a job, some dumb woman or relationship gone bad etc.
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post #153 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I think that suicides in general, anywhere in the world, can often be work related. Why do people kill themselves to begin with? It's usually over some silly reason, like money, a job, some dumb woman or relationship gone bad etc.

When the suicide rate gets well above the national average, that's when you have a real and obvious problem.
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post #154 of 213
2/12/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

When the suicide rate gets well above the national average, that's when you have a real and obvious problem.

I'd agree with that. So when the suicide rate at Foxconn drastically exceeds that average, then maybe the protesters will have a legitimate reason to whine about it, instead of lying and fabricating stories which is what they are doing today.
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post #155 of 213
2/12/12 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oftentimes he has a point. He just doesn't understand how to craft it so that his reader is willing or able to see it. An interesting point of view gets wasted by having a poor understanding of how to relay it to the others here.

This statement has exceeded the arrogance quota for any one post.

There seems to be a fair degree of assumption that others don't agree with or understand his views.

And the irony of one very pro-Android poster posting on an Apple forum giving advice on how to relay a message is definitely most amusing.

Why don't we all stick to the topics at hand, and stop throwing stones in this big ol' glasshouse?
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post #156 of 213
2/12/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

Fanboisim is not an excuse for insensitivity or racism.

He wasn't being racist or insensitive though.

I've spent time in the far east and if you thinking working in a paddy field is a nice place, then I suggest you go try it. As for working 60 hours a week - someone working in a paddy field will be putting in far more hours than 60. The people I knew who worked the fields worked 6 days a week at 12-14 hours, plus a 'short' day on Sunday of 8 hours.

So best part of 90 hours per week, and they'll have been paid 1/3rd of what a Foxconn worker makes, probably even less.

I remember one of the family members worked at IBM, and her wages were used to support the rest of the family she was so well paid in comparison to the rest of them.
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post #157 of 213
2/12/12 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I challenge any liberals whose vocabulary consists of the word "puerile" to refute any of the claims or facts that I've laid out, if they take issue with it. I provide links which clearly lay waste to the absurd and false claims coming from certain people who constantly whine and repeat lies about Apple. Prove me wrong, though I of course won't be holding my breath while waiting for any liberal to prove me wrong.

Sometimes the truth hurts, get used to it. What is truly offensive is people who would exaggerate, lie and spread misinformation, attempting to score a point for their feel good, baloney cause of the week, such as the very low suicide rates amongst a certain group of people, and attempting to somehow smear Apple with that total non-issue.

And when the liberal can't win an argument based on either facts or logic, there's always the old "racism" card which these people can pull out of their pockets. The fact of the matter is that I couldn't care less where these suicides were happening. Suicide is a totally normal thing and it takes place all over the world. No race, color or creed is spared.

Most liberals have no idea about poverty. Poverty to them is not being able to afford DirectTV.
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post #158 of 213
2/12/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

.... does not grant him the right to be offensive.

Offensiveness is often in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, his political views are a bit extreme, but I try not to get offended. We're all grown-ups here.

Incidentally, laying the blame for suicides on Foxconn by using false statistics, innuendo, thin lines of reasoning, and conflating Apple with Foxconn in report after report (to drive who knows what political agenda) are perhaps the most cynical and insensitive use of suicides that I have seen.
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post #159 of 213
2/12/12 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... and who the fuck uses words like "puerile" on a public forum. Now that's offensive.

I do - I think it's a very nice word.
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post #160 of 213
2/12/12 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

I don't agree. All that I have seen is people bandying around stats from Wikipedia either for or against. No one has demonstrated an understanding of the factors involved in occupational suicide rates, which I suspect is quite different from national rates of suicide.

Then stop the whining and demonstrate for us.
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