Apple attacks Motorola's efforts to block iPhone 4S using standards patents, asks for huge damages - Page 5

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Then stop the whining and demonstrate for us.

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

Why would they be allowed to meddle with old business or management of everyday business decisions at Moto when there's realistic chances the purchase won't even happen, needing approval from a lot of different authorities including those in China, Israel, Taiwan, the US and the EU? Think of the possible ramifications from Moto stockholders if Google were to order an end to any actions against Apple but never follows thru with purchasing the company? Or worse, they order Moto to ramp up the lawsuits, then say adios and back out of the deal if the heat from Apple gets too hot. It makes no sense and therefor probably isn't true that Google's calling all the shots.

But if you want to hold on to the teeny tiny possibility that this is all Google's doing, Moto's shareholders are being deceived by the evil Google who is secretly in control and use it to cloud your thinking it's your choice of course.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

I do - I think it's a very nice word.

Originally Posted by hungover

Questioning methodology is considered to be whining?

My retort, that you quoted, was an attempt to demonstrate that given the available data it is not possible to say with any authority whether Foxconn employees are more or less likely to commit suicide as a direct result of Foxconn's relationship with Apple.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum, and seemingly without any whining.

Originally Posted by island hermit

I was actually going somewhere with that but be damned if it wasn't you that took the bait.

Originally Posted by hungover

Questioning methodology is considered to be whining?

My retort, that you quoted, was an attempt to demonstrate that given the available data it is not possible to say with any authority whether Foxconn employees are more or less likely to commit suicide as a direct result of Foxconn's relationship with Apple.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum, and seemingly without any whining.

Originally Posted by waldobushman

I have no idea why you continue to argue with me on this matter, and why you persist on holding positions for which you have no facts to back it up.

Neither Google nor Motorola legal teams are idiots. Google's offer and Motorola's acceptance, on this I am quite certain, is not based on a wink and a handshake. Such agreements are both extensive and thoroughly negotiated. Why would you assume the contingencies you argue for are not covered by the agreement? Of course, they are. Google cannot just on a whim decide to not go through with the purchase. They can only do so by reference to negotiated terms outlining the conditions in which withdrawal is allowed.

Google's involvement in these suits involving Apple, based on this agreement, of which we are not privy, are undoubtedly spelled out in this agreement as are Moto's responsibilities. What is fairly clear, or at least presumed, is that Google's purchase of Moto was predicated on Google's use of Moto's patent portfolio to give Google leverage against Apple's and perhaps Oracle's suits against it. As such, Moto's value to Google, and Google's offer and support is likely (and again not being privy to the agreement, I can only surmise), contingent Moto's (successful?) pursuit of claims against Apple. What is also clear is that Google's offer to Moto accounts for the risk Moto's suits against Apple will fail.

Originally Posted by waldobushman

I have no idea why you continue to argue with me on this matter, and why you persist on holding positions for which you have no facts to back it up.

Neither Google nor Motorola legal teams are idiots.

Originally Posted by tinman0

Most liberals have no idea about poverty. Poverty to them is not being able to afford DirectTV.

Originally Posted by Apple ][

I challenge any liberals whose vocabulary consists of the word "puerile" to refute any of the claims or facts that I've laid out, if they take issue with it. I provide links which clearly lay waste to the absurd and false claims coming from certain people who constantly whine and repeat lies about Apple. Prove me wrong, though I of course won't be holding my breath while waiting for any liberal to prove me wrong.

Sometimes the truth hurts, get used to it. What is truly offensive is people who would exaggerate, lie and spread misinformation, attempting to score a point for their feel good, baloney cause of the week, such as the very low suicide rates amongst a certain group of people, and attempting to somehow smear Apple with that total non-issue.

And when the liberal can't win an argument based on either facts or logic, there's always the old "racism" card which these people can pull out of their pockets. The fact of the matter is that I couldn't care less where these suicides were happening. Suicide is a totally normal thing and it takes place all over the world. No race, color or creed is spared.

Originally Posted by MacTel

Everyone just needs a hug. If we did more hugging in business we wouldn't have these problems. Come to reasonable cross licensing agreements and move on please.

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

Ahh yes, I see your point. It would be more logical to assume that the least reasonable explanation is most likely the true one.

Originally Posted by Mode 5

I'm just speculating on the rest of the speculation out there in the business rags. There's a lot of intrigue about the motivations behind this deal.

There's intrigue about why Google upped their already substantial bid by $3 billion just 8 days after their initial offer was made, all the while there were no other parties interested in Motorola Mobility. There's a lot of intrigue about how Motorola drove the negotiations through Qatalyst and how they negotiated the extraordinary $2.5 billion reverse termination fee plus an additional $1 billion in damages if Google looses interest in the deal. The implication being that Motorola Mobility is taking a huge risk and had something on the table Google was willing to put $3.5 billion up against. And there is also considerable intrigue about the incredible haste in which the deal was made and the so called "astronomical fees" the deal makers have attached to the 8 day deal.

It has been "speculated" that what Motorola had to bargain with was the withdrawal of their lawsuit against Apple. Even if there's truth behind the speculation, it's never going to become public knowledge but it's interesting nonetheless. As I said in my previous post, it's interesting that this letter terminating all licensing with respects to Apple arrives January 11th 2011, just seven days after Motorola split into two companies on January 4th 2011. Sanjay Jha is personally making a cool $66 million out of this deal, and Qatalyst Partners stands to make around $55 million all up, it's hard to say there's not a perception of risk floating around.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Unless you have some kind of theoretical argument or a formal statistical test, your use of 'QED' is just puerile.

The bottom line is, there is simply no evidence that suicide rates are higher at Foxconn than in the general Chinese population from which employees are drawn. Which, in turn, is the proximate reason for this entire conversation worldwide. Get with the program and figure out what people are arguing.

You said that the use of suicides to score points was insensitive. I responded that what the original reporters - and their water carriers in Forums like these - did was worse. You have not responded to that.

Guess what? It's typical. Seen it many times before. Don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Actually, the word came in handy! See above. Thanks.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram


The bottom line is, there is simply no evidence that suicide rates are higher at Foxconn than in the general Chinese population from which employees are drawn. Which, in turn, is the proximate reason for this entire conversation worldwide. Get with the program and figure out what people are arguing.

Originally Posted by hungover

The following is not intended to be a slight on you or anyone else

Perhaps it would be more useful to compare suicide rates amongst similar Chinese firms as a starting point. Rather than simply comparing foxconn rates with the national average.

Originally Posted by hungover

How quaint, I am being chided by someone whose signature looks like a 90's Benetton marketing man's wet dream.

The ease with which you exercise hypocrisy is breath taking, to wit you feign being offended by the misappropriation and misuse of suicide rates, before then bragging about how you don't care about the suicided.

Your racism seems to be akin to that of the European colonialists, or slave owners who considered certain other nationalities to be inferior beings, dehumanised chattle. China has a 1.3bn population, Evidently you are labouring under the delusion that those not in the employ of Foxconn are standing in paddy fields.

BTW I take no offence to being called a liberal, largely because I am not sure in which context you are using the term. Do you mean one who believes in freedom from from unrepresentative monarchs (a la the American revolutionists)?

Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz

If we compare lie-to-like, then there will be a real answer, and fewer people can cite bogus statistics and claim that they are right.

What fun is that?

Originally Posted by hungover

The following is not intended to be a slight on you or anyone else

Perhaps it would be more useful to compare suicide rates amongst similar Chinese firms as a starting point. Rather than simply comparing foxconn rates with the national average.

Originally Posted by sippincider

After reading the various responses to my early post, I have no choice but to conclude this is the biggest group of elite assholes I have ever met. After 18 years of Internet flamefests, that's an achievement.

And we honestly wonder why there are people who want Apple & its supporters to fail.

Originally Posted by hungover

Inappropriate use (see my post-above)...

Originally Posted by hungover

The following is not intended to be a slight on you or anyone else

Perhaps it would be more useful to compare suicide rates amongst similar Chinese firms as a starting point. Rather than simply comparing foxconn rates with the national average.

Originally Posted by hungover

I didn't reply to the second paragraph in your earlier post (158) because it was not relevant to anything that I had said (see above).

Originally Posted by island hermit

Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.

Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.

Originally Posted by island hermit

When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.

Originally Posted by Apple ][

I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.

Originally Posted by jragosta

So what are your credentials that makes you more of an expert than Mueller?

Furthermore, even if 90% of the Oracle suit was dismissed, how does that prove that Oracle can not hurt Google/Android? After all, as Microsoft says, it only takes one bullet.

Originally Posted by sippincider

After reading the various responses to my early post, I have no choice but to conclude this is the biggest group of elite assholes I have ever met.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Uh uh. See your own post, #133.

QED.

Originally Posted by Apple ][

I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.

Originally Posted by GTR

Actually, Apple ][ is correct and not being racist at all.

I visit China on a regular basis. Many of Foxconn's employees come from the poorer, regional sections that rely heavily on farming. Fields, as he described, are all over the place. Unfortunately, they are easily affected by droughts.

In fact, in the majority of suicide cases throughout all of China, a large portion are caused from separation from family, not working conditions.

Were you not aware of this?

If you're going to call someone a racist, make sure you know what you're talking about, asshole.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Your statistician friend is exactly right.

Originally Posted by island hermit

Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.

Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram


hungover makes up for his lack of knowledge of statistics with a bit of Latin, though.

Originally Posted by hungover

As an English speaker, I am inclined to use Latin from time to time, English is afterall loosly Romance based. Call me a pedant if you will. Oh hang on that's GREEK in derivation, opps.. does that make me pretentious (Latin orig)?

Would you rather I spoke Nadsat or limited myself to terms such as shucks?

Originally Posted by nvidia2008

Er, Mr. English speaker, maybe just focus on English. (See bold italic above)

Just joshing, too much seriousness up in this thread.

Originally Posted by hungover

I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.

By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.

At no point have I claimed to be a statistician, nor have I claimed to be a sociologist with any special insight into suicide rates.

However, if you force me to continue to examine the question of suicide then I would assume that work conditions/income/living conditions etc are contributory factors. Based on those assumptions I would expect that people reputed to have better working conditions (etc) to be less likely to commit suicide than those seasonally facing hardship as the result of drought, for example. In such a scenario, given the significantly smaller base of workers with "superior conditions", parity with national rates would imply a serious problem.

Now as I keep having to stress I don't know what the rates are for China or Foxconn employees and thus I stress, yet again, that I do not know if Apples relationship with the Chinese economy had had any effect or not.

Questioning the methodology with which one arrives at an answer does not make the questioner an asshole, nor does it trivialise the hardships endured by the unfortunate friends and family of the suicided. Glibly stating that you don't give a sh!te about them does.

What more do you want me to say? I suspect that the majority of my detractors will only be happy if I say that as a direct consequence of Apple, Foxconn employees are better treated than anyone else in China. That is something I am not willing to do unless presented with compelling evidence.

Originally Posted by sennen

What a load of waffle. I doubt very much that you care about the workers in China - if you did you would be using your time a lot more fruitfully than spouting off on an apple-centric we forum.