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Apple reportedly squeezing supplier to stop building MacBook Air clones from Asus - Page 3

post #81 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

I dont think this is true for Snow Leopard but Lion is a total joke. Every time I've tried Lion I always revert back to Snow Leopard.

Perhaps you and myapplelove can explain how Lion doesn't even have a few useful features.

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post #82 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Nope, you were wondering why Israel so I answered the question. It seems to be a hot bed of tech at the moment and that's why Apple is investing there, to gain access to new technologies such as that SSD controller company which they recently bought. And Apple is also opening research centers there.


Don't backpedal. You and that Zither character are both guilty of attempting to politicize the topic. A discussion of overseas outsourcing can include mention of Israel since Apple has recently become involved there, but interjecting political opinions with a hard bias is where you guys both went off track.

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post #83 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightymike View Post

Why bother to innovate when you can copy Apple and just litigate your way to market share. Samsung's doing it and now Asus, but it's tough going with all the uncertainty of litigation. Samsung has yet to to feel the biggest sting when Apple drops them as a supplier for a $10 billion dollar loss. The only copying Asus will be dong is paying lawyers millions just like Samsung and end up a battered company. These Wintel clone makers must be real desperate. Sounds like a dying gasp from another PC maker who can't make it in a post PC world!

Not sure who's going to win in that scenario. Well, let's see, Samsung loses $10B from Apple, or $10B less from Samsung's last year gross, $150B (about 6.6% of all sales), but the demand from its mobile units (growing at 230+%/year) makes up for the lost order. Other mobile manufacturers no longer have to wait for phone components or delay their product release.

For Apple, in the meanwhile, there would be major shortages in everything from display, mobile cpus, nand flash. High defect/low yield rates from LG and other Asian fabs and pricey components from aging Japanese manufacturers erodes Apple's margin and reputation. Apple's new semi fabs would cost $90B and at least 5 years to get up to Samsung's yield rate. (* $90B figure based on Samsung semi unit's annual capital investment, $15B in 2011 alone, reportedly $45B in 2012 *).

Now, that doesn't add up. Samsung doesn't sound that desperate to be honest. Let T. Cook do his work.
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post #84 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Don't backpedal. You and that Zither character are both guilty of attempting to politicize the topic. A discussion of overseas outsourcing can include mention of Israel since Apple has recently become involved there, but interjecting political opinions with a hard bias is where you guys both went off track.

Once more, with feeling, Israel is not a low-cost location and has no chance of becoming a manufacturing hub, so it has no relevance to the topic at hand, much less the politics of it.
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post #85 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:15am
Im going to have to question the reliability of the source on this one...

If Pegatron did truly stop ASUS production... then whats the real reason? Is bullying" a fair term or just link bait? Did Apple ask for more capacity because they actually need it? Did Pegatron make a smart call on who to make machines for if capacity isnt sufficient for everyone? Or did Apple not need the capacity, and just asked Pegatron to shut down part of their operation to spite insignificant ASUS? Who knows? But that would not be at all like Apples past behavior. Theyd take legal action (and Id say theyd be well justified) instead.

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post #86 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And what does that have to do with the article?

The Zenbook looks identical to the MacBook Pro. That's lawsuit-worthy if Apple has the appropriate patents on the Air design.

Apple can't constrain production of other companies. That's also probably lawsuit worthy if it's done in an illegal manner.

no it doesn't look identical to the macbook pro. it looks similar but that is a different thing.
however, they are in no danger whatsoever of overrunning apple and in fact the zenbook has lost its luster due to touchpad issues etc. What is good about this is that it adds more fuel to the fire that apple is run by douchbags and is a company for douchebags. the more people that see and hear about this type of thing the better. people need to know the true 'apple' and not this magical, fantasy, lie that has been created.
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post #87 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:18am
Please articles like this are complete hearsay, hell the source at the china times could be a mail room boy, or a worker for asus. What a crock, when they actually get a credible source that is reliable maybe there would be some truth to this garbage.
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post #88 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Perhaps you and myapplelove can explain how Lion doesn't even have a few useful features.

lion has a useful feature: filevault 2. oh wait, apparently that can be cracked in 40 minutes or less now.
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post #89 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Once more, with feeling, Israel is not a low-cost location has no chance of becoming a manufacturing hub, so has no relevance to the topic at hand, much less the politics of it.

Sorry but although the discussion may not appeal to you, there is often mention on these boards of the possibility of Apple manufacturing in the US again. Your request that the mention of Israel be stopped by comparing it to the US as an equally unlikely manufacturing site is simply weak. The fact that you think it is not ever going to happen doesn't make it off limits for discussion.

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post #90 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

What is good about this is that it adds more fuel to the fire that apple is run by douchbags and is a company for douchebags. the more people that see and hear about this type of thing the better. people need to know the true 'apple' and not this magical, fantasy, lie that has been created.

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post #91 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

you mean have 4 wheels and 2 to 4 doors and use a combustion based engine? Maybe have a windsheild with wipers...... your right...all cars are different...

With better patent law and enforcement, we would have had flying cars by now. And force fields that repel rain.
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post #92 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Perhaps you and myapplelove can explain how Lion doesn't even have a few useful features.

Just the trackpad swipe gestures, alone, are worth the price of upgrading to Lion.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #93 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:34am
I love Apple and often post comments defending the company or whatever - but as an antitrust attorney, I have to say that this, shall we say "reeks" of the Microsoft tactics that led to a major antitrust investigation. If Pendragon is a key supplier of this type of laptop, and Apple does not have IP rights that exclusivity is required to protect, we could be looking at a serious antitrust issue.
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post #94 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:34am
Thanks to Apple, Pegatron acquired a lot of valuable expertise in building MacBook Airs. If you think that Apple will just stand idly by and let Pegatron use this acquired expertise to build products that directly compete with the MacBook Air, then you're the most naive person in the world.

Is this an antitrust violation? Nah. Subcontractor exclusivity is legal in the U.S. and pretty much all over the world. Especially if there is a significant technology transfer from contractor to subcontractor, which is the case with Apple and its contract mfrs.
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post #95 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sorry but although the discussion my not appeal to you, there is often mention on these boards of the possibility of Apple manufacturing in the US again. Your request that the mention of Israel be stopped by comparing it to the US as an equally unlikely manufacturing site is simply weak. The fact that you think it is not ever going to happen doesn't it make it off limits for discussion.

I have no power to tell you what to write. I am pointing out the very obvious and objective fact that Israel is not and has no chance of becoming a significant electronics products manufacturing hub for the foreseeable future.

Apple is outsourcing nothing to Israel, they have purchased Anobit and will establish a semiconductor R&D operation around it. Israel has exceptional semiconductor engineering talent (the critically important Pentium M was developed there by Intel), and Apple is increasingly obtaining semiconductor design capability, so Israel is a natural location.

Perhaps you are misconstruing outsourcing (what Apple does with Pegatron or Foxconn), with having overseas operations (what Apple did by buying Anobit). These are totally different things. Apple is did not go to Israel to shave a few bucks off somebody's paycheck, and no company in its right mind would go to Israel for that. It went there for talent.
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post #96 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Just the trackpad swipe gestures, alone, are worth the price of upgrading to Lion.

Not to mention what those swipe gestures can do within the Lion apps. It's certainly made my Mac more useful and for only $29.

We see this every time. These same people who say that Snow Leopard is great and Lion sucks will trumpeting Lion and saying Mountain Lion(?) sucks just like they said Leopard was great and Snow Leopard sucked a few years back.

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post #97 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:37am
Solution: Pegatron forms a wholly-owned (or jointly-owned JV with Asus) subsidiary that manufactures the Zenbook by leasing space and/or time in its manufacturing line.

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post #98 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by danyak View Post

I love Apple and often post comments defending the company or whatever - but as an antitrust attorney, I have to say that this, shall we say "reeks" of the Microsoft tactics that led to a major antitrust investigation. If Pendragon is a key supplier of this type of laptop, and Apple does not have IP rights that exclusivity is required to protect, we could be looking at a serious antitrust issue.

Does that mean Apple isn't allowed to take its business elsewhere? I'm not sure what anti-trust law requires a customer to continue doing business with a company who aren't meeting their needs or acting in a way they find unscrupulous.

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post #99 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Does that mean Apple isn't allowed to take its business elsewhere? I'm not sure what anti-trust law requires a customer to continue doing business with a company who aren't meeting their needs or acting in a way they find unscrupulous.

Yes, you are right. However, anti-trust laws in the United States look at whether or not there was an intent to stifle competition and in some cases whether or not the actions simply had the effect of stifling competition.

Just like Microsoft (without anti-trust laws) was free to give away its software in order to destroy the profitability of Netscape, Apple can threaten to move its business elsewhere to get Pegatron to drop Asus products.

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post #100 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I really don't understand why Apple is so offended by these copycats. People who buy them were not ever going to be Apple customers anyway. The cloners can't compete on price, quality, service, warranty, ecosystem, software, operating system reliability, resale value or ease of use.

You know that and I know that, but the average customer walking into Best Buy doesn't know that. They'll see something that looks as good as a MacBook and assume it is. And besides, why should they get a free ride off of Apple's design work?
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post #101 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

Yes, you are right. However, anti-trust laws in the United States look at whether or not there was an intent to stifle competition and in some cases whether or not the actions simply had the effect of stifling competition.

Just like Microsoft (without anti-trust laws) was free to give away its software in order to destroy the profitability of Netscape, Apple can threaten to move its business elsewhere to get Pegatron to drop Asus products.

But Apple isn't giving their product away to stiffle competion, they are threatening to take their business away. That sounds like the complete opposite thing MS did.

Now I see how one could argue that Apple is stifling competition with this maneuver but one could also argue that Apple giving more room to Pegatron to pursue other customers actually permits more competition to take place.

What I don't get is why Apple isn't all up in Intel's business for creating the MBA clone reference models.

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post #102 of 166
2/13/12 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

But Apple isn't giving their product away to stiffle competion, they are threatening to take their business away. That sounds like the complete opposite thing MS did.

Now I see how one could argue that Apple is stifling competition with this maneuver but one could also argue that Apple giving more room to Pegatron to pursue other customers actually permits more competition to take place.

What I don't get is why Apple isn't all up in Intel's business for creating the MBA clone reference models.

Maybe they are. But they can't really walk away from Intel now.
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post #103 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:10pm
Personally I think the Air and Zenbook look similar, definately not the same.
I don't think Apple can patent using metal, making something incredibly thin (thus suggesting it's form), and using a chiclet keyboard (which is in fashion).

They have differentiated the product with a circular brushed metal lid, different overall colours, and slightly different form. Laptops these days are becoming so minimilist, I fail to see how Apple can patent being minimal, or owning the Bauhaus art movement.

The MacBook Air was another slight progression, in the long history of laptop evolution, it wasn't spawned as a new entity. Those who have followed all laptop manufactures over the years, would be able to see the chain of influence, and while the Air brought a new step, was nothing particularly remarkable - and in no way should Apple own the super thin metal laptop market.
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post #104 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Your sarcastic analogy would be equivalent to "you mean have a display and a keyboard with a hinged lid with ports on the side?" Surely you can see the difference.

so how other than a tapered shape is this infringing on the MBA?

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post #105 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

What I don't get is why Apple isn't all up in Intel's business for creating the MBA clone reference models.

The day those were presented, Tim Cook simply mass e-mailed everyone at Intel this image.



No text, just the image.
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post #106 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

I found the performance improvements over Snow Leopard justify using Lion alone and thats without getting into how much better it works on Notebooks.

Not been my experience. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...-head-to-head/
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post #107 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

so how other than a tapered shape is this infringing on the MBA?

Your argument is a straw man. II'm not saying it's "infringing." The comment you referred to specifically mentioned a Mercedes but your analogy was to rudimentary to be accurate in any way. You mentioned basic things a road vehicle would have (not necessarily a car) which is really more inline with any PC or CE. It has a CPU, RAM, storage, a method for input and output. That's the equivalent. These new Ultrabooks are taking the Mercedes look and then trying to find something similar yet not necessarily infringing. The Kia Armanti is more inline with what Asus is doing with Intel's Ultrabook base designs.

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post #108 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:31pm
What's interesting is that Intel's Ultrabook approach is largely deemed as Macbook Air clones, but even the closest hardware, the Zenbook I don't find to be a clone.

Others ultrabooks like these, also show further innovation, not cloning, so it's unfair to call it a clone industry.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r5Maf9HVNG...g-9-Series.jpg
http://www.laptopspec.net/wp-content...-ultrabook.jpg
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post #109 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

I have no power to tell you what to write.

I agree with you 100%. I never suggested that Israel would be a potential low cost manufacturing location. My point was only that you cannot sanitize a topic of the name Israel just because you don't like the direction the discussion is going. The immature, off topic, politically charged remarks are an unfortunate reality around here.

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post #110 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Except, Apple isnt curtailing who benefits from the assembly line. They are simply saying that if a competitors is using that same assembly line, they will choose to go to another assembly line.

Yep, that would be true but maybe not significant. As Apple has graphically shown over the past 10 years that which matters most keeps changing at a brisk pace. Does Pegatron want to continue at the leading edge or just manufacture for all those companies that watch others and then try to "innovate" (where innovate could be a synonym for copy in this context) before the market leaves them behind again? It is also probably worth noting that Pegatron was split off from Asus a few years ago. Apple would not need to be too paranoid to suspect some shady business is going on.
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post #111 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

I dont think this is true for Snow Leopard but Lion is a total joke. Every time I've tried Lion I always revert back to Snow Leopard.

Performance of Lion is abysmal on ALL my Macs. Granted I don't have a current generation Mac:

17" MBP (Mid 2009) C2D 2.8, 4GB RAM
27" iMAC (Mid 2010) Core i5, 12GB RAM
13" MacBook Air (Late 2010) C2D 1.8, 4GB RAM

Lion was clean installed on all of them. No upgrades. All computers start to feel progressively more laggy and unresponsive after an hour or two of use. I don't really use any heavy resource intensive apps: Chrome, Apple Mail, BB Edit, Transmit, Numbers, Pages, iTunes.

Snow Leopard performs much better on all of the machines. And Windows 7 runs far better than Lion on the iMac that's for sure.

The reason why sticking with Snow Leopard is not really a viable option for me forward is iCloud. I want all my devices to be able to talk to each other. iCloud isn't coming to Snow Leopard. It's Lion or Windows my only choices. So far I'm running Windows 7 as the only OS on my iMac and I must say the experience is not horrible. I have no intention of trying to run Windows on my MacBook Air because of keyboard and trackpad issues.
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post #112 of 166
2/13/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The day those were presented, Tim Cook simply mass e-mailed everyone at Intel this image.

...

No text, just the image.

It took me more than a few seconds to see the three chilling letters that must have caused Intel executives to lose sleep that night. That is hilarious.
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post #113 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdbryan View Post

It took me more than a few seconds to see the three chilling letters that must have caused Intel executives to lose sleep that night. That is hilarious.

why? os x on ARM? ha ha. good luck with that. os x lion is pathetic on the AIR with the new intel chips what makes you it will run worth a dang on ARM? not going to happen in the next couple of years.
oh, and rewriting/compiling all of the current os x apps to run on ARM too?

a dumb move like that would be something MS would try to do...oh...wait....FAIL
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post #114 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

why? os x on ARM? ha ha. good luck with that.

It already runs on ARM.

Quote:
os x lion is pathetic on the AIR with the new intel chips what makes you it will run worth a dang on ARM?

Our ability to not be completely mired in anti-Apple nonsense.

Quote:
not going to happen in the next couple of years.

Not as a viable retail product, no. But as an ever-present threat to Intel if they let their release schedule or performance increases fall to IBM's standard? Of course.

Quote:
a dumb move like that would be something MS would try to do...oh...wait....FAIL

How do you know it has failed when Windows 8 isn't even out yet?
PhilBoogie
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PhilBoogie
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post #115 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


What's up with all the warts on Phil Schiller's face?
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post #116 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What's up with all the warts on Phil Schiller's face?

No idea. You'd figure he'd get them frozen until you realize where they are and how much more that would hurt than if they were just on a foot or palm or something.
PhilBoogie
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post #117 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:42pm
If the govt. will check APPLE for what they are doing now in tech. world - theres lots of grounds for them on being in hot water.

Also to the writer - go to wikipedia to check whats the meaning of cloning - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

I have macbook air and i personally put them side by side and theres is no cloning or whatever is happening...

STOP WRITING IF TOU DONT KNOW THE BASIC MEANING OF CLONING...
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post #118 of 166
2/13/12 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Innovator View Post

If the govt. will check APPLE for what they are doing now in tech. world - theres lots of grounds for them on being in hot water.

Also to the writer - go to wikipedia to check whats the meaning of cloning - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

I have macbook air and i personally put them side by side and theres is no cloning or whatever is happening...

STOP WRITING IF TOU DONT KNOW THE BASIC MEANING OF CLONING...

TOU? Who is TOU, and why is his/her name forever locked in caps?
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post #119 of 166
2/13/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

Not sure who's going to win in that scenario. Well, let's see, Samsung loses $10B from Apple, or $10B less from Samsung's last year gross, $150B (about 6.6% of all sales), but the demand from its mobile units (growing at 230+%/year) makes up for the lost order. Other mobile manufacturers no longer have to wait for phone components or delay their product release.

For Apple, in the meanwhile, there would be major shortages in everything from display, mobile cpus, nand flash. High defect/low yield rates from LG and other Asian fabs and pricey components from aging Japanese manufacturers erodes Apple's margin and reputation. Apple's new semi fabs would cost $90B and at least 5 years to get up to Samsung's yield rate. (* $90B figure based on Samsung semi unit's annual capital investment, $15B in 2011 alone, reportedly $45B in 2012 *).

Now, that doesn't add up. Samsung doesn't sound that desperate to be honest. Let T. Cook do his work.

Samsung does not need apple clearly,but if android gets brought to it's knee's then Samsung will need to start to look elsewhere for a android replace maybe microsoft or even there own...just don't think long term samsung will win this war.
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post #120 of 166
2/13/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Innovator View Post

If the govt. will check APPLE for what they are doing now in tech. world - theres lots of grounds for them on being in hot water.

What, like the Motorola patent thing or the accusations of stifling manufacturing of competitors' stuff?

Other than that, for what are they in trouble?

Quote:
STOP WRITING IF TOU DONT KNOW THE BASIC MEANING OF CLONING...

Always the literalist.
PhilBoogie
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