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Chinese 'iPad' trademark owner looking to block sales of Apple's iPad globally - Page 4

post #121 of 204
2/14/12 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No need. Apple pays Foxconn for every unit shipped. If Foxconn can't ship any units, Apple doesn't have to pay. No need for Apple to cancel its contract.

How do you know that? What is your evidence? Is that anything more than a guess?
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post #122 of 204
2/14/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz_ball View Post

Normally I wouldn't resort to the childish response, but hey, it seems more than appropriate. I say that until the Chinese government takes their knock-off, piracy, IP-theft seriously, then their companies should be ignored when they make the kinds of complaints that foreign companies have been making for years about China. They can't let their homegrown companies rip everyone else off then suddenly find religion when one of their own companies feels it's IP/trademark/etc is being abused...

Do you know that patents and copyrights are a national thing? Each country has its own patent and trademark office. My company(us) won a patent lawsuit against another US company. That company can not sell such product in US. But that company still sells the product in Japan.

My point is the Chinese legal system has no obligation to voluntarily enforce US patents and trademarks until a US company actively tries to ask Chinese to do.

I think many Chinese companies are employing this loophole. So it is not a corruption of Chinese legal system at all.
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post #123 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Dear Apple,

We will stop buying American debt and destroy your economy. Don't forget that we have you by the short curlies.

Sincerely.

China

That is the emptiest threat I've heard in a long time.
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post #124 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcstarheel View Post

So development of these can run rampant...






...but when Apple outright purchases the trademark name this company can renege on that agreement and get the okay to block exports?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The first situation is clearly wrong. But seemingly, under relevant law, the second situation is right.

That's what courts are for. To decide the relevant law, and to right the wrongs. Here, the courts have decided who is right and who is wrong.
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post #125 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcstarheel View Post

So development of these can run rampant...






...but when Apple outright purchases the trademark name this company can renege on that agreement and get the okay to block exports?

Wow, I did not know the clones were so...blatant. Down to a fake Apple logo. Can I assume the Chinese are not knocking off the Motorola RAZR MAXXXXX?
"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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post #126 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

If a company were set up making counterfeit iPads (or any other name-brand product) in the USA, all for export, do you really think that US law would allow that?

That seems pretty unlikely to me. ISTM that manufacture of counterfeit goods can be prevented under Chinese law too, and that if they are produced, export can be stopped.

Do you really think otherwise?

There's a difference between counterfeit goods and a trademark dispute.

In this case, Apple clearly has the rights to use the iPad trademark in the rest of the world. If they manufacture in China and ship outside of China, they are not infringing on the Chinese trademark.

Manufacturing counterfeit goods is a different thing, entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

You do realize that China is a Communist country and if they choose to stop the exports of ANYTHING they can and no one can do anything about it. Sure they can move manufacturing to other countries but that would take years, would not happen over night. Many here fail to understand that this case isnt "business" oriented, it is "Nationalism" oriented. Here comes the big bad American Apple trying to bully its way around (Like America does) throw money at everything and do what it wants with impunity. Even if Apple is 100% in the rights here, it is perception and "saving face" that is ruling the day on this one. If the Chinese government at all feels Apple is attempting to bully or disrespect them, they will halt shipments immediately, the old fashion "Chinese safety inspection" that lasts for years of cargo ships with Apple products on them.

That is true. However, there are two scenarios:
1. China chooses to follow world trade laws. In that case, Apple has the right to manufacture a product for export that does not have a valid China trademark.
2. China choose to ignore world trade laws and block iPad exports even though world standards would not allow that. In that case, the repercussions would be immense - and Chinese government officials are not stupid. The chances that they would so blatantly violate world trade processes over one little trademark dispute are miniscule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

How do you know that? What is your evidence? Is that anything more than a guess?

Because Apple's not stupid. Do you really think Apple has a contract with Foxconn saying that they'll pay them a billion dollars a month (or whatever it is) whether Foxconn ships anything or not? Not bloody likely.
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post #127 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by parksgm
Justify this - there is no widespread conception that the United States has a corrupt legal system. However, there IS the widespread belief that China's legal system is corrupt. Most of the commenters on the board have tacitly agreed with the underlying assumption that China has a corrupt legal system in their posts.

By and large, there is no large scale bribery of the judicial system in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I meant that both countries are corrupt in the sense of being anti-democratic and being ruled by an elite group that the laws don't apply to (among other things).

I think the onus is on you to prove that there is rampant corruption in the Chinese judicial system and that judges are regularly "bought off." Merely saying (paraphrased), "everyone here agrees with me" (about that) is not the same as proving your point. I could easily do the same.

I mostly only wanted to point out that the original statement was (IMO of course), borderline racist and had "a tone" that was hardly different from making jokes about "darkies" or whatever. It came across as a mean spirited dig at an entire culture and race for no reason other than pure nastiness.

I didn't *report* the post as offensive or racist as I know these things can be open to (some) interpretation, but it seemed to me like a pretty disgusting kind of remark to make.

Perceptions can be either racist or just plain ignorant (as in uneducated or uninformed). A true racist is, of course, also uninformed. Throwing accusations of racism could in itself be argued as an act of racism.

Better to assume that a posters comments are uninformed unless blatant racists remarks are made obvious. To educate or attempt to educate and enlighten is far more constructive than name calling.

A racist is not going to change by the fact of his/her nature being pointed out. An uniformed person, on the other hand, more likely has the potential to learn and change.

Just because a breakfast cereal claims that something lowers cholesterol doesn't mean the cereal either has cholesterol lowering capabilities or that it even contains the said thing. Not everybody realises this when such an advert is presented, just as not everybody realises that some widespread conception could be wrong.

I believe Orwell called acceptable widespread conception, bellyfeel and Stephen Colbert calls it truthiness.
Know History; Not just your Folklore
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post #128 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:12am
I say, dont give in, or the extortions will keep coming! Just call it Pad in China.

nagromme
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nagromme
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post #129 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Dear Apple,

We will stop buying American debt and destroy your economy. Don't forget that we have you by the short curlies.

Sincerely.

China

Apple does not have any significant debt. And more than half their profits are generated overseas.

The Chinese have been actually selling off US Treasury notes to diversify their holdings. They still hold quite a large amount of US bonds, but China is more dependent on the US consumer buying their products than we are on the Chinese buying US bonds. The Chinese don't want to destroy the US economy - it will damage their economy more.

Maybe when you get old enough to have some short curlies, you can learn something about economics and business.
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post #130 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Dear Apple,

We will stop buying American debt and destroy your economy. Don't forget that we have you by the short curlies.

Sincerely.

China

Up Yours china , and Fxxx U!
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post #131 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:14am
There's a high level Chinese delegation visiting Obama today. I wonder if the lower level people on the trip (who do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to substantive talks) are getting a polite earful from their US counterparts about the wisdom of letting a two-bit trademark extortionist hold hostage a US company that is instrumental in providing hundreds of thousands of jobs in China.
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post #132 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan_Timek View Post

So Proview sells the rights to the name, probably thinks that it didn't negotiate for enough money the first time around and now they "refuse to honor" the agreement. China isn't becoming more capitalistic, they're becoming more like organized crime.

You said the magic words there. China has a government on paper, but what runs the country is organized corruption top to bottom! Rule of Law is what you don't get when you move your production to China or Russia.

I suspect Proview wants some extortion money. Then there's the judge and some local officials as well as a few high level officials to pay off... In pre-communist China there was the "Torture of 1000 cuts, now, there is the Torture of 1000 bribes (cuts).
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post #133 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:17am
Proview says that the Apple's iPad trademark deal with Proview, Taiwan is not acceptable in China, and thus they want the Chinese government to stop export/import of iPad. However, the Chinese government claims Taiwan to be a part of China. Does anyone see a contradiction here?
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post #134 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by parksgm
Justify this - there is no widespread conception that the United States has a corrupt legal system. However, there IS the widespread belief that China's legal system is corrupt. Most of the commenters on the board have tacitly agreed with the underlying assumption that China has a corrupt legal system in their posts.

By and large, there is no large scale bribery of the judicial system in the US.



Perceptions can be either racist or just plain ignorant (as in uneducated or uninformed). A true racist is, of course, also uninformed. Throwing accusations of racism could in itself be argued as an act of racism.

Better to assume that a posters comments are uninformed unless blatant racists remarks are made obvious. To educate or attempt to educate and enlighten is far more constructive than name calling.

A racist is not going to change by the fact of his/her nature being pointed out. An uniformed person, on the other hand, more likely has the potential to learn and change.

Just because a breakfast cereal claims that something lowers cholesterol doesn't mean the cereal either has cholesterol lowering capabilities or that it even contains the said thing. Not everybody realises this when such an advert is presented, just as not everybody realises that some widespread conception could be wrong.

I believe Orwell called acceptable widespread conception, bellyfeel and Stephen Colbert calls it truthiness.

I have explained to you why you are wrong.
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post #135 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Dear Apple,

We will stop buying American debt and destroy your economy. Don't forget that we have you by the short curlies.

Sincerely.

China

sad, but glad apple is getting a taste of its own medicine.
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post #136 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That is true. However, there are two scenarios:
1. China chooses to follow world trade laws. In that case, Apple has the right to manufacture a product for export that does not have a valid China trademark.
2. China choose to ignore world trade laws and block iPad exports even though world standards would not allow that. In that case, the repercussions would be immense - and Chinese government officials are not stupid. The chances that they would so blatantly violate world trade processes over one little trademark dispute are miniscule.

You write those claims as tho there's no question of them being unequivocally true.

IMHO the Chinese could consider those iPads as being manufactured/owned by Foxconn (or whoever) and being sold to Apple under contract and on upon completion, which includes packaging I believe. In which case it's conceivable that the product would be considered sold to Apple rather than being manufactured by Apple. If so, then Foxconn might not be permitted to sell/export them.

Just a thought.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #137 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

You write those claims as tho there's no question of them being unequivocally true.

IMHO the Chinese could consider those iPads as being manufactured/owned by Foxconn (or whoever) and being sold to Apple under contract and on upon completion, which includes packaging I believe. In which case it's conceivable that the product would be considered sold to Apple rather than being manufactured by Apple. If so, then Foxconn might not be permitted to sell/export them.

Just a thought.


Doesn't Apple own the parts already? Either way, the Chinese company and the government are completely in left field on this one so there is no telling what they may do.

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post #138 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

sad, but glad apple is getting a taste of its own medicine.

Yes, after decades of having their designs stolen and their stuff illegally cloned with absolutely no recourse, it's good to see Apple getting sued over a technicality.

PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
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post #139 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No need. Apple pays Foxconn for every unit shipped. If Foxconn can't ship any units, Apple doesn't have to pay. No need for Apple to cancel its contract.

Really? Can Foxconn just keep everything they make? I'm pretty sure they could make a bundle in their black market, especially given China's iPhone/iPad mania now. Apple's customer in the West would get pissed off big time though.
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post #140 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

Nonsense. China owns no more than 8-9 percent of American debt.


I think that's 8-9 percent of public debt (i,e US treasuries, Mae bonds), plus another trillion in US private/corporate securities/debt. Let's not also forget their 3-trillion dollars FX holding.

That being said, I don't think Proview's lawsuit is going to start a trade/currency war with China. I think Walmart is still the largest importer of Made-In-China goods in US (automobiles from Japan, Germany being the US's #1 import)
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post #141 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

Really? Can Foxconn just keep everything they make? I'm pretty sure they could make a bundle in their black market, especially given China's iPhone/iPad mania now. Apple's customer in the West would get pissed off big time though.

No one ever suggested that. Foxconn does not have a license to sell the product and would be guilty of patent and trademark infringement if they did so. (plus, I doubt very much that Apple would have signed a contract without specifically restricting Foxconn's ability to sell to the black market).

The point is that Apple is probably not obligated to pay Foxconn if Foxconn can't ship anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

You write those claims as tho there's no question of them being unequivocally true.

IMHO the Chinese could consider those iPads as being manufactured/owned by Foxconn (or whoever) and being sold to Apple under contract and on upon completion, which includes packaging I believe. In which case it's conceivable that the product would be considered sold to Apple rather than being manufactured by Apple. If so, then Foxconn might not be permitted to sell/export them.

Just a thought.

The Chinese can't consider any such thing unless the contract is set up that way.

Furthermore, even if they are sold to Apple, as long as they're only exported, they do not infringe a Chinese trademark, so the government could not legally stop them.
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post #142 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

sad, but glad apple is getting a taste of its own medicine.

Anybody who would side against Apple in this case doesn't belong on this forum, IMHO.
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post #143 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No one ever suggested that. Foxconn does not have a license to sell the product and would be guilty of patent and trademark infringement if they did so. (plus, I doubt very much that Apple would have signed a contract without specifically restricting Foxconn's ability to sell to the black market).

The point is that Apple is probably not obligated to pay Foxconn if Foxconn can't ship anything.



The Chinese can't consider any such thing unless the contract is set up that way.

Furthermore, even if they are sold to Apple, as long as they're only exported, they do not infringe a Chinese trademark, so the government could not legally stop them.

You keep working under the assumption that a contract in China is actually worth something. The fact that Proview is not abiding by the original contract should be a hint that law is not going to be a significant factor in this case.

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post #144 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You keep working under the assumption that a contract in China is actually worth something. The fact that Proview is not abiding by the original contract should be a hint that law is not going to be a significant factor in this case.

Precisely what I keep saying. People are thinking logically and like business men, this is outside of that thought pattern.
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post #145 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:42am
The Chinese government is not so stupid as to ban export/import of Ipads. On the contrary, Proview might get an earful from the government asking them to make a deal with Apple.
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post #146 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


The point is that Apple is probably not obligated to pay Foxconn if Foxconn can't ship anything.





I find it more probable that Apple IS required to pay if the reason for non-shipment is Apple's fault. No other structure makes sense to me. But we're both just guessing.


Foxconn is totally 100% innocent here, and the courts have already found Apple to have violated applicable laws. IMO, Foxconn should not get screwed over by Apple here. Foxconn did nothing wrong, and Apple lost in court already.
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post #147 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheers777 View Post

The Chinese government is not so stupid as to ban export/import of Ipads. On the contrary, Proview might get an earful from the government asking them to make a deal with Apple.

At best.
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post #148 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Dear Apple,

We will stop buying American debt and destroy your economy. Don't forget that we have you by the short curlies.

Sincerely.

China

owning someone else's debt is a two-edged sword.

if they ruin our economy, the US bonds and US dollars they own become worthless as well.
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post #149 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandor View Post

owning someone else's debt is a two-edged sword.

if they ruin our economy, the US bonds and US dollars they own become worthless as well.

Not sure why anyone is actually entertaining this thought process???? No country is going to go to Economic war with each other because of a company. Will not happen.
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post #150 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:53am
There you go. Can they achieve that? Well ignorants think not. The fact is that it is China that builds any Apple hardware as well as other merchandise. In that economic strangle it is just enough to convience China "rulers" who make anything happen and who run all this show (again ignorants frequenty corporate do not see this).

It is the same case as with oil lines in Europe through neiboring countries... just a little "preassure" with threataning that something would stop for a moment and everybody agrees to anything.
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post #151 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Wrong. China stops buying American debt, then either China must buy some other American asset or product OR see their currency appreciate significantly against the dollar, destroying their export industry.

Also, when you owe the band $1,000 it's your problem. When you owe the bank $1 trillion, it's the bank's problem.

Wrong as well. It'll hurt their export industry but not destroy it. There are plenty of other countries that but from them. China buys a great amount of scrap metal from us. They need us but we also need them.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #152 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheers777 View Post

The Chinese government is not so stupid as to ban export/import of Ipads. On the contrary, Proview might get an earful from the government asking them to make a deal with Apple.

who knows? Maybe there's Chinese Al Gore sitting in Proview's board. what if the CEO of Proview is a close friend of Jiang Zemin or Hu Jintao, like Jobs was to the Clintons?
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post #153 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:56am
Apple just needs to pay for using the name iPad, rather than infringing on other people's copyrights. They are just playing the game American companies love to play.
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post #154 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

Apple just needs to pay for using the name iPad, rather than infringing on other people's copyrights rights. They are just playing the game American companies love to play.

The issue is how much. Proview is playing the game not Apple.
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post #155 of 204
2/14/12 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciekskontakt View Post

There you go. Can they achieve that? Well ignorants think not. The fact is that it is China that builds any Apple hardware as well as other merchandise. In that economic strangle it is just enough to convience China "rulers" who make anything happen and who run all this show (again ignorants frequenty corporate do not see this).

It is the same case as with oil lines in Europe through neiboring countries... just a little "preassure" with threataning that something would stop for a moment and everybody agrees to anything.

That hurt just reading.
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post #156 of 204
2/14/12 at 12:02pm
If Proview is to win, then thousands of thousands China people will be out of jobs, that's something the China gov't will not allow it. I'm sure Proview and Apple will work it out.
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post #157 of 204
2/14/12 at 12:15pm
Why Apple is hoarding $100B and still refuses to build factories in the US? If iPad is mading the US, problem like this will not occur... Yeah, the price of iPad will increase. But if it's a good gadget, people will shell out the money especially it's made in the U.S.A.
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post #158 of 204
2/14/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Why Apple is hoarding $100B and still refuses to build factories in the US? If iPad is mading the US, problem like this will not occur... Yeah, the price of iPad will increase. But if it's a good gadget, people will shell out the money especially it's made in the U.S.A.

that's just a bad idea. Makes no sense to build low-end menial assembly jobs in US, IMO.
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post #159 of 204
2/14/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Why Apple is hoarding $100B and still refuses to build factories in the US? If iPad is mading the US, problem like this will not occur... Yeah, the price of iPad will increase. But if it's a good gadget, people will shell out the money especially it's made in the U.S.A.

So you're fine with $600 for an iPod nano?
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
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post #160 of 204
2/14/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremedesigner View Post

I'm sure Proview and Apple will work it out.

That seems to be Apple's best option here.

They will pay through the nose, but the terms will be confidential and it will not have any severe or far reaching affect on Apple's bottom line.

Apple is gonna get screwed, but it's their own stupid fault. They didn't deal with the company which had the registered trademark in China. Or so says the court. Apple is appealing the decision to the highest court. We'll see what happens in the meantime.
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