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Tim Cook admits Apple may further converge iOS & OS X, Macs could run on ARM CPUs - Page 2

post #41 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I have already posted in other threads about this so sorry for repeating.... but Mac OS and IOS are, afaik, essentially the same core OS. IOS being a derivative of OSX. They are built upon the same foundations.

But the Mac experience is so different that it would make no sense to make it limited to an IOS GUI. Just because you are able to view iMovie in Full Screen mode, it doesn't mean that it is dumbed down or IOS like. The menus are all still available. Menus that I think it unlikely will become available in the IOS version of the App for obvious reasons.

Apple is not replacing OSX with IOS, that is the wrong way to look at it.

How is OSX being dumbed down? Give me a few examples of things you can no longer do as a result of dumbing down.

Re OSX lite, there already is such a thing and it is called SimpleFinder. It is built into the OS and can be invoked through settings. It doesn't turn OSX into IOS but it is a simplified view of the OS with limited permissions. Maybe Apple will make Simple Finder look like IOS. I think that would be a great idea, personally.

Oh, and your first point... my apologies. Pot shots uncalled for. I just get a little jumpy when I see this IOS / OSX alarmism. .

I apologize.

I am seeing a lot of points here including this response causing me to pause and re-evaluate my position.
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post #42 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

I apologize.

I am seeing a lot of points here including this response causing me to pause and re-evaluate my position.

I don't know if you read Daring Fireball but John Gruber got a private event last week and said this:
Quote:
Apple sees a fundamental difference between software for the keyboard-and-mouse-pointer Mac and that for the touchscreen iPad. Mountain Lion is not a step towards a single OS that powers both the Mac and iPad, but rather another in a series of steps toward defining a set of shared concepts, styles, and principles between two fundamentally distinct OSes.

I wholeheartedly believe that is the absolutely correct way to view this.

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post #43 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

I almost think it would make more sense for Apple to transition iOS to Intel, down the road of course. ARM works great right now, but has little competition given that Intel fell asleep from ingesting too much money in the 90's and early 21st century.

Intel wishes -- but highly unlikely that Apple would transition iOS to intel, for numerous reasons.

Intel have hardly won any favours with Apple by actively promoting and subsidising competition OEMs for MacBook Air.

Apple would be foolhardy to put themselves at the mercy of Intel.

Once Intel were monopoly sole supplier to Apple they would doubtless return to their old ways of exploiting their monopoly by overcharging.

One of the reasons Intel has failed to gain market share from ARM in the mobile sector is that OEMs are very reluctant to put themselves at the mercy of Intel's monopoly price exploitation. With ARM chips there is huge competition amongst numerous different chipmakers.

For years Intel have been announcing how they were going to start stealing mobile market share from ARM, all of which boasts have failed to materialise. Intel always claim they are catching up/overtaking ARM battery saving capabilities comparing their next generation of Intel chips with ARM's current chips. The problem for Intel is that ARM are not standing still but continuously upgrading their chip capabilities. In their pipeline ARM have 32/64 Bit multi-core chips (8 core and possibly 16 Core) 22 and 28 nano chips! Dream on Intel!

If Apple were to migrate to Intel that would mean Apple sacrificing their own chip design capabilities, recently enhanced by their Israeli Flash memory design capabilities. Why on each would Apple throw away the huge competitive advantage of being able to design their own chips to gain maximum efficiency with their OS software?

Far more likely is that Apple will migrate Macs to ARM Chips - Apple designed 64 Bit, 8 Multi-Core, 22 or 28 nano, with super efficient Flash.......sounds juicy to me!
post #44 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I assume I was only short list of name, too.

Me confused?
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post #45 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There are a lot if people who have been saying, for several years now, that Apple won't converge the two OS's at all, and that it would be a bad idea. I've been saying, from the beginning, that they will. I've pointed out the origins of both, but that seemed to be thought to be of little significance. Now that Apple beginning (with Lion, mostly) to merge various functions and features, it's becoming more obvious to others that this is indeed happening. But Apple is still, for the most part, telling us that they will remain seperate.

I don't think that they will remain seperate. I think that even more code will converge. I even think that we will buy an app, likely from the App Store for this to happen, that will install on any of your devices, iOS, or otherwise, but just installing elements that will function on that particular device.

So we may see Pages install on every Apple device from just one purchase, but just load what will work on that device, be it a desktop, or a Touch. Fat Binaries is something Apple is quite familiar with, and so even if they are still using two processor families, it will work, just loading the binary needed on that platform.

This will make for a very smooth universe of devices.

But does this mean that every developer needs to develop a full MacOS app and then add the IOS elements before they can sell it through the App Store?

I think you are confusing what 'is possible' with what 'is practical'. Its like the lean forward and lean back argument vis a vis computers and telly. Its about context. To have a fully fledged word processing app on an iPhone or iPad I don't think makes sense. Its like the truck v the car argument. You don't need a crane, a trailer and 30" wheels on your daily car.
post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Me confused?

Th short list of AI posters that you thought might point that out.

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post #47 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Apple sees a fundamental difference between software for the keyboard-and-mouse-pointer Mac and that for the touchscreen iPad. Mountain Lion is not a step towards a single OS that powers both the Mac and iPad, but rather another in a series of steps toward defining a set of shared concepts, styles, and principles between two fundamentally distinct OSes.
http://daringfireball.net/2012/02/mountain_lion

I wholeheartedly believe that is the absolutely correct way to view this.

Exactly!
post #48 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think I'll use xOS and see if that catches on.

Perhaps it should be IOS across the board. The 'I' should stand for Internet with a capital 'I'. Then we would have: IOS small, med, large and XL for the ITV.

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post #49 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

So far I don't think this is true at all. Why would I not want the OSX messaging app to be consistent with the iOS app? What's wrong with auto-save and auto-restore of windows?

I have yet to see an example of a technology or UI concept brought from iOS to OSX that has made me worse off. I can still run my open source unixy software from terminal -- which I do -- while gaining some of the advantages of iOS.

The only gripe I can see about the "iOS-ificiation" of OSX is that it might shift resources/efforts away from improving the X-specific aspects of OSX. For example, it would be nice to see some advances in the file system for power users, not just for users who want to only see files from within an app.

But I see no example of cases where Apple has taken away important features and replaced them with crippled iOS alternatives. If we wake up one day and can no longer go into terminal or open a Finder window, then we'll have something to complain about. But so far, I don't see the complaint.

Amen brother! ZFS? HFS+ is so antiquated.... Is it just me or does it seem like mountain lion is not going to bring ANY imporovements over lion or even snow leopard? Even lion was a very small step forward I think. I really dont think autosaving was made the best possible way in lion. It just made me uncomfiortable about my documents because I modify many times documents but need the old document aswell..

The day I cant use the terminal is the last day on os X for me. Not use bsd or linux software or java software. It absolutely makes no sense why they would take away this possibility but it may come someday if we dont fight it back. I wont swollow dumbing down os X with no alternatives. I think Lion has a lot of features i dont use or care of.... The istallation is a nightmare compared to snow leopard from a preinstalled image. I cant even make a deasent universal installer image nowadays which took 2 minutes and a few clicks earlier. I think lion is still going to bite me in ways if i like to reinstall a system...

And addressbook? What the fuck happoned with that one in lion???!!! Pig bastards!!!
post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah, we'll eventually have a multitouch desktop OS that is operated in a way as different from the current keyboard/mouse paradigm as adding the mouse was from the keyboard/screen paradigm. I buy that.

But it better darn well be an OS that happens to run on phones and tablets, not the other way around. We need a file manager (and this is where Apple will really shine. They'll create something brand new here; an entirely new way of organizing and looking at your files) and to retain the rest of the features that make OS X OS X while incorporating the incredible potential of multitouch that makes iOS iOS.

We're beginning to see the first implementations of a new kind of file management:

Simply stated: Why should the [average] user know or care where his files are (and when/how they are saved/versioned/backed up...). We have computers that can do all that.

1) The OS (Lion) has versioning

2) Modern apps have autosaving

3) iCloud will evolve from an option [to store files] to the default

4) cross-device sync is already in place for many apps

5) some apps, like FCP X, use a built-in SQL db as part of their file structure -- future versions will allow collaboration by combining of these "individual" dbs into a cloud/server based multiuser collaboration db -- you can't change the Title on Clip 3 in Project B because Bill is editing that Title -- though, you can add video effects or edit sound...


You don't need to take it with you -- if you can access it from anywhere...


...think iTunes match -- each of our computers and iDevices have access to 16,177 items (I just checked). These are stored across 5 computers, and all accessible on any iDevice from iCloud -- wherever we are.

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post #51 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Gruber points out that Apple is now calling Mac OS X simply OS X. I wonder if that means they will start to focus on a consumer notebook and desktop line that aren't called Macs.

Either way, it looks like this sub-Mac OS X/post-Darwin OS they once referred to as OS X is now being rebranded. I guess we'll have to find a different term for the core system that they both share. I think I'll use xOS and see if that catches on.

I prefer OS-X, or xOS, for that matter, to Mac OS. I was using it because the X eol is getting ever nearer. aOS, perhaps? though that would get al messed up with IOS. I suspect there are a lot of names and version being bandied about at Apple these days.
post #52 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

We're beginning to see the first implementations of a new kind of file management:

Simply stated: Why should the [average] user know or care where his files are (and when/how they are saved/versioned/backed up...). We have computers that can do all that.

1) The OS (Lion) has versioning

2) Modern apps have autosaving

3) iCloud will evolve from an option [to store files] to the default

4) cross-device sync is already in place for many apps

5) some apps, like FCP X, use a built-in SQL db as part of their file structure -- future versions will allow collaboration by combining of these "individual" dbs into a cloud/server based multiuser collaboration db -- you can't change the Title on Clip 3 in Project B because Bill is editing that Title -- though, you can add video effects or edit sound...


You don't need to take it with you -- if you can access it from anywhere...


...think iTunes match -- each of our computers and iDevices have access to 16,177 items (I just checked). These are stored across 5 computers, and all accessible on any iDevice from iCloud -- wherever we are.



Have you ever wanted to upload a picture to a website using your iPhone or iPad? You can't do it without a special app specifically for that website. That is why Facebook, Twitter, Craigslist, etc. sites that use a lot of uploaded photos had to have their own app. I don't think iOS/iCloud file methodologies are necessarily an improvement over traditional file management. I would rather have access to the file system in addition to cloud storage.

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post #53 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

I am not a fan of iOS on a Mac PC.

Making the OS stupid proof.

You should make your post stupid proof, because it makes no sense.

No features are being removed from ML, it isn't being dumbed down. Features are being added, which leverages the innovations and usage patterns from the mobile space, providing tighter integration of data between platforms and seamless syncing. I don't see how you can't understand that most people will largely benefit from this. You want stupid proof? Go look at Windows 8.
post #54 of 105
What is that new icon next to Spotlight?
post #55 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

....They are showing they want to capitalize on their iOS popularity by making the Mac more familiar to non-Mac users.

AGREED - nail meet hammer
post #56 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi View Post

Amen brother! ZFS? HFS+ is so antiquated.... Is it just me or does it seem like mountain lion is not going to bring ANY imporovements over lion or even snow leopard? Even lion was a very small step forward I think. I really dont think autosaving was made the best possible way in lion. It just made me uncomfiortable about my documents because I modify many times documents but need the old document aswell..

The day I cant use the terminal is the last day on os X for me. Not use bsd or linux software or java software. It absolutely makes no sense why they would take away this possibility but it may come someday if we dont fight it back. I wont swollow dumbing down os X with no alternatives. I think Lion has a lot of features i dont use or care of.... The istallation is a nightmare compared to snow leopard from a preinstalled image. I cant even make a deasent universal installer image nowadays which took 2 minutes and a few clicks earlier. I think lion is still going to bite me in ways if i like to reinstall a system...

And addressbook? What the fuck happoned with that one in lion???!!! Pig bastards!!!

99% of people have no idea what you're taking about. These are the people Apple are making products for and the market they are appealing to- not you. Anyway, keep your panties on. Terminal isn't going away anytime soon. To a clear-headed person that realizes now everyone in the world is like them, Apple is making all the right moves. There will always be people like you who don't agree, but that doesn't mean you should expect Apple to cater their product decisions and strategy to the niche market you're in.
post #57 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

First off I have intelligence and 25 years of IT, VM and Data Center experience and have watched a lot of MFG's do this same thing not just Microsoft ,so if you would be so kind as to refrain from taking pop shots and being condescending, please.

You say that iOS will not become the MacOS, how do you know this?

There is more evidence that they are moving MacOS in the direction of iOS than not.

They are replacing apps with in OS X with iOS versions slowly converting OS X to iOS via a slow and methodical transition.

However, for arguments sake I will give you your premiss that the two OS's will remain separate.

They are still dumbing down MacOS which is "obviously and surely a bad thing".


Go ahead and toast me up.

I hate to say this but maybe it is time for an OS X Lite or home version.

In what way are they dumbing down OS X? Surely, improving and standardizing the UI across several device classes is strengthening the OS -- not dumbing it down. As are, automatic versioning, backup restart, location services, AirPlay, Core Media APIs...

I can still do all the things I could do with every prior version of OS X (Rosetta excepted) -- and a whole lot more (a lot of that is due to iOS features being rewritten and reported to OS X).

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post #58 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

I apologize.

I am seeing a lot of points here including this response causing me to pause and re-evaluate my position.

I..what..can't process... *head explodes*

I think this is the first time in my history on the internet where I have read such a statement. I'm not even joking.
post #59 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

What is that new icon next to Spotlight?

That is how you access Notifications. It looks just like it does on iOS with the gray cloth background except that instead of sliding done from the top it slides the desktop over from right to left to reveal your notifications.

The one significant change I like about Notifications on ML over iOS is that it slides the desktop over to reveal Notifcations behind the desktop. Whereas on iOS the Notifications come in front of the desktop. This is significant and I think wrong in iOS because that background should indicate what is underneath, not on top. Perhaps that's me niggling but I think it's an important differentiation.

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post #60 of 105
I don't like the term merging as I see no reason for the two OS,s to become one. However there are many features missing from the Mac. People should see this as increasing functionality and data sharing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Fascinating! I like the integation of iOS on the Mac....just the syncing and Mac App store are amazing!.

The future is, more and more Apple users will have an iphone, iPad and most likely an MBA or even an iMac as well and eventually an Apple TV. And having a "family resemblance" of Apple's devices is the way to go!

The more integrated the two platforms become the more likely people will give up their laptops in favor of a desktop and an iOS devices or two. It isn't a family resemblance that we are looking for but the transparent access to data. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Apple would be better off if the corresponding apps didn't look too much alike.
Quote:

Also, for those interested, this week's macworld podcast is about mountain lion...very interesting!

http://www.macworld.com/article/1654...n_the_way.html

I will need to check it out. However in just the last few minutes of reading about Mountain Lion I've been suitably impressed. Many of the improvements are exactly what I'm looking for.
post #61 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't see that happening or how it makes sense. Why do I need to have the iOS UIs on my Mac or have the Mac Aqua UI hidden in within every iDevice? You don't there is simply no need for them to converse into one OS.

Now convergent aspects across their different OSes is another story and how iOS started. They scaled back Mac OS X to a core version of OS X that all system could use then diverged iOS from that. They've since shared back and forth along the way with the commonality of iOS-based devices clearly being pushed to the Mac to make it more familiar.

It makes sense because the "converged" OS will have a common code base.

You do not need to have extra UIs (and other components -- either Mac or Touch) on any device that does not use them.

Think about an app like Mail that runs on an iPhone and an iPad (as well as a Mac and a Web browser). The Same code presents a different UI depending on the device it runs.

Apple is fully capable of modularizing UIs and other OS capabilities so that only required code can be downloaded and used on the target device.

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post #62 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

For a good article about 10.8, if that's what it will be called, see this article from PCmag. It's interesting that the PC oriented sites have, for the past few years, been giving Apple products really good press. Some of the readers aren't happy, but it is what it is.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400311,00.asp

Hilarious how pcmag has much more positive impressions from 10.8 than most Apple fansites. This almost reads like Apple PR:

Quote:
Bottom line:
OS X Lion is already the best consumer OS by far. When Mountain Lion ships, it will only increase Apple's lead. Anyone who uses a computer for both pleasure and work won't want to use anything else.

Some of you need to get some perspective and realizes how cynical you've become with anything to do with Apple, imposing your own xenophobic personal needs/wants and completely missing the big picture. And this rebuked much of the concern-trolling here:

Quote:
Apple's parallel but different tracks for OS X and iOS seems the right choice to me, and I wish Microsoft didn't insist on making my Windows desktop machine pretend to be a tablet or phone.

Amazing how everyone is bitching about the baseless 'iOSification' of OSX, yet Microsoft is slapping a tablet/phone interface as the default for a desktop.
post #63 of 105
If anything we will have a far more powerful OS with these added features. Note the word added, it isn't like they are taking away anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

In what way are they dumbing down OS X? Surely, improving and standardizing the UI across several device classes is strengthening the OS -- not dumbing it down.

At this point I've seen nothing to indicate standardizing of the UI other than the scrolling fix. Rather what i see is the addition of many new features. Features are not Ui's. I suspect that this is where many are confused, some of these features would have made it to the Mac even if iOS didn't exist.
Quote:
As are, automatic versioning, backup restart, location services, AirPlay, Core Media APIs...

Yeah I'm not sure how any of those could be indicators of a dumbed down OS. Rather they should be seen as additional capability or modernization of old features.
Quote:
I can still do all the things I could do with every prior version of OS X (Rosetta excepted) -- and a whole lot more (a lot of that is due to iOS features being rewritten and reported to OS X).


Yeah that whole lot more is what is being missed by many. I guess if your life revolves around your web browser you can't grasp the value of these features. It looks like you and I on the other hand are more of the mindset of what is taking Apple so long.
post #64 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Some of you need to get some perspective and realizes how cynical you've become with anything to do with Apple, imposing your own xenophobic personal needs/wants and completely missing the big picture.

Pray do explain to us what comprises the "big picture".
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post #65 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Th short list of AI posters that you thought might point that out.

I'm still confused by this though? "I assume I was only short list of name, too."
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post #66 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

It makes sense because the "converged" OS will have a common code base.

You do not need to have extra UIs (and other components -- either Mac or Touch) on any device that does not use them.

Think about an app like Mail that runs on an iPhone and an iPad (as well as a Mac and a Web browser). The Same code presents a different UI depending on the device it runs.

Apple is fully capable of modularizing UIs and other OS capabilities so that only required code can be downloaded and used on the target device.


You are talking about two completely OS philosphies. It's one thing to have iOS for iPhone/Touch and iOS for iPad create universal apps because the code base is so similar. That's just an app with the same basic, primary I/O foundation that is CocoaTouch.

Mac OS X uses Aqua and even though Apple is trying to make them look familiar they still act like a desktop OS app, not an embedded OS app that can't be windowed or resized. It's really just an iOS UI coating over Mac OS X Aqua, but it's not pulling CocoaTouch onto Mac OS and dropping Aqua, hence it's not a converging OS... jut converging aspects within the OS.

And that's just some minor surface points. That isn't even the core ways in which the OS functions. iOS doesn't need drivers for all those Mac ports on the side. It doesn't need drivers for USB connected printers and hard drives. There is a world of difference in the core of the OS that was stripped away to make iOS because it's not needed and never will be.

Bottom line: Apple hasn't dropped the Mac or dumbed it down. What they've done is add continuity between iOS and Mac OS which makes sense as their iOS devices are used by a lot more people than Macs. This isn't Apple dropping the Mac, this is Apple focusing on the Mac. Expect some major Mac HW updates as they are clearly readying to take the platform to a whole... 'nother... level.

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post #67 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I'm still confused by this though? "I assume I was only short list of name, too."

Oops, iPhone autocorrect and my lack of proofreading. I meant to write, "I assume I was on the short list of name, too." in regards to those who you think might point out your longstanding HDTV wish.

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post #68 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

We're beginning to see the first implementations of a new kind of file management:

Simply stated: Why should the [average] user know or care where his files are (and when/how they are saved/versioned/backed up...). We have computers that can do all that.

I consider knowing where my files are to be very important. This allows for the use of the file system to organize the files according to project or other factors. One thing that I've quickly grown to hate about iOS is the inability to organize files. If you get past a certain number of files Pages and Numbers just suck on the iPad.
Quote:
1) The OS (Lion) has versioning

2) Modern apps have autosaving

3) iCloud will evolve from an option [to store files] to the default

4) cross-device sync is already in place for many apps

5) some apps, like FCP X, use a built-in SQL db as part of their file structure -- future versions will allow collaboration by combining of these "individual" dbs into a cloud/server based multiuser collaboration db -- you can't change the Title on Clip 3 in Project B because Bill is editing that Title -- though, you can add video effects or edit sound...


You don't need to take it with you -- if you can access it from anywhere...

If only that where true! Every app using iCloud needs to maintain a local copy for when iCloud isn't around. More so the apps need to be able to sync data files upon reconnection.
Quote:

...think iTunes match -- each of our computers and iDevices have access to 16,177 items (I just checked). These are stored across 5 computers, and all accessible on any iDevice from iCloud -- wherever we are.


Yeah I'm thinking I don't like that concept at all. It isn't that I don't like the concept of iCloud for sharing across devices, it is a good concept. The problem is you won't always have access to that cloud storage. Apps need to transparently deal with this issue and that means always having a local copy of everything on iCloud.
post #69 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Nothing really to see here.

Same article 7 years ago simply replaced ARM with Intel.

ARM's moving upscale with more power hungry and powerful processors and Intel is moving downscale with low power mobile processing.

Apple would be foolish not to explore the idea.

Testing is normal for such a large company. If Intel was just sitting on this, that would be one thing. I'd like to see how the two compare a couple years from now. By that I mean chip for chip at that time, not what Intel makes today versus what ARM might be able to make later years later. Some of the math posted on this in the past has been particularly bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

What he said: We think about everything.

What he meant: You're damn right we're going to use ARM chips in Macs.

There are far too many directly quantifiable advantages to switching to ARM. E.g. lower CPU chip cost, lower power consumption, mechanical simplicity (no cooling fans), fewer components, etc. But the priceless, intangible advantage is freedom from Intel and its symbiosis with Microsoft. Apple suffered for many years during its unhappy co-dependence on slow-moving Motorola and IBM for their PowerPC chips.

The major flaw with this logic is that you don't know how these factors would look if you required a chip that would perform comparable to the current Air. At this point we still don't have much beyond speculation and hype, so it's not really a guarantee at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post


One of the reasons Intel has failed to gain market share from ARM in the mobile sector is that OEMs are very reluctant to put themselves at the mercy of Intel's monopoly price exploitation. With ARM chips there is huge competition amongst numerous different chipmakers.

In terms of pricing, power consumption, performance, etc. ARM's current competition in that area has involved atom chips. Should you wish to scale up an ARM chip to be appropriate for an OSX based machine, you'd no longer be looking at such a cheap price, and you are unlikely to see the price charged by Apple fall due to this.
post #70 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

If anything we will have a far more powerful OS with these added features. Note the word added, it isn't like they are taking away anything.


At this point I've seen nothing to indicate standardizing of the UI other than the scrolling fix. Rather what i see is the addition of many new features. Features are not Ui's. I suspect that this is where many are confused, some of these features would have made it to the Mac even if iOS didn't exist.

Yeah I'm not sure how any of those could be indicators of a dumbed down OS. Rather they should be seen as additional capability or modernization of old features.


Yeah that whole lot more is what is being missed by many. I guess if your life revolves around your web browser you can't grasp the value of these features. It looks like you and I on the other hand are more of the mindset of what is taking Apple so long.

Agree completely!


Maybe the proper way to look at it is that Apple is dumbing-up OS X -- so that it can make [non-computer] users comfortable with their [iDevice] apps running on the desktop. *


Just imagine how difficult it will be for someone who is proficient on an iPad to sit down and use a mouse for the first time...

Remember *

No, No, No... Don't look at the mouse -- look at the little cursor on the screen...

No, I don't know why they call it a cursor... you can call it the little arrow, if you feel more comfortable...

No, I don't know why the little arrow becomes a little glove -- maybe it means the computer is cold...

No, No, If you roll the mouse to the end of your desk... just lift up the mouse and move it to the middle of your desk.

No, the cur- eh, little arrow will remember where it was, and not follow you to the middle of the desk...

No, trust me, it'll remember...

Oh, there you go... I should have been more clear... Lift up the mouse and don't set it down until you get to the center of the desk...

Don't set it down, yet!

OK, take a moment to stop crying... now roll the little arrow over that little button...

OK, Now click the button...

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear -- press down on the mouse so that the little arrow presses the button...

No, I don't know why you can't just reach and press the button with your finger...

Well, no, they don't call it "click and point" -- it just doesn't make sense that way...


* Apologies to Bob Newhart.


There is some standardizing of the UI -- some touch gestures on trackpads, MagicMouse and MagicPad...

But, I should have been more specific -- the "look and feel" standardization -- some in the OS and the desktop, but mostly in the look and feel of the basic apps. It will be nice (less unsettling) to be able to run Calendar or Contacts on a Mac or an iDevice and not need to make the mental adjustment because the app looks and works differently.

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post #71 of 105
It isn't so much an ARM issue as it is a SoC issue. Apple won't switch to Intel on iOS devices until. It can build exactly what it needs into a SoC. this will only become more important in the future.

Now you may say that Intel could do SoC and that may be true, but right now there are huge hurdles to breach at Intel.

As to TB it is simply a question of how much of the IP Apple owns or is willing to license. There is no technical reason keeping TB off ARM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

I almost think it would make more sense for Apple to transition iOS to Intel, down the road of course. ARM works great right now, but has little competition given that Intel fell asleep from ingesting too much money in the 90's and early 21st century.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but LightPeak/Thunderbolt doesn't work on ARM, but would if Apple transitioned to Intel, say 5 years down the road.
post #72 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I consider knowing where my files are to be very important. This allows for the use of the file system to organize the files according to project or other factors. One thing that I've quickly grown to hate about iOS is the inability to organize files. If you get past a certain number of files Pages and Numbers just suck on the iPad.

If only that where true! Every app using iCloud needs to maintain a local copy for when iCloud isn't around. More so the apps need to be able to sync data files upon reconnection.

Yeah I'm thinking I don't like that concept at all. It isn't that I don't like the concept of iCloud for sharing across devices, it is a good concept. The problem is you won't always have access to that cloud storage. Apps need to transparently deal with this issue and that means always having a local copy of everything on iCloud.

But you or I nor most here are not typical users

I do not believe that Apple will remove needed function (like control of where your files go) for sophisticated users.

They will just hide it from view for the typical user who does not need it -- like ~/Library in Lion.


iCloud is a 1.0 release... I believe with a little expansion of capability it will satisfy the needs of most users -- those who can't surf, mail, socialize without an Internet connection.


For the more sophisticated user, I believe there needs to be an intermediate device between the local devices and the cloud. The primary function of this device would be to stage your files between local storage and the cloud.

When you create a file, the device creates a local backup and change backups ala TimeMachine -- and periodically uploads that to the cloud.

Based on infrequency of reference, the file may eventually migrate to the cloud. Six months from now, when you need to work on those files again they migrate back to local storage.

I believe this would give you the best of both worlds:

1) Local access to all the files you currently (or plan to) use.

2) Everything available on the cloud

3) Mobile access to either the local store or the cloud


The staging device(s) would be an A6 running iOS built into a RAID like the Pegasus.

As to the file system vs no file system: iOS is admittedly limited [poor] -- but OS X isn't much better... there needs to be something in between and better... and I'm thinking the long-term solution includes an SQL db to help you navigate and access files... Like porn -- I can't define it -- but I'll know it when I see it.
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post #73 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

First off I have intelligence and 25 years of IT, VM and Data Center experience and have watched a lot of MFG's do this same thing not just Microsoft ,so if you would be so kind as to refrain from taking pop shots and being condescending, please.

You say that iOS will not become the MacOS, how do you know this?

There is more evidence that they are moving MacOS in the direction of iOS than not.

They are replacing apps with in OS X with iOS versions slowly converting OS X to iOS via a slow and methodical transition.

However, for arguments sake I will give you your premiss that the two OS's will remain separate.

They are still dumbing down MacOS which is "obviously and surely a bad thing".


Go ahead and toast me up.

I hate to say this but maybe it is time for an OS X Lite or home version.

They are not dumbing down Mac OS X. Everything that was there is still there. They are merely borrowing naming conventions and UI elements from iOS.

iOS WILL NOT replace OS X. iOS doesn't even support virtual memory. iOS is OS X for devices with very limited resources and will remain as such and Mac OS X will continue to be designed for systems with many, many more (unlimited) resources.

What I think will eventually happen, is Apple releasing a new of line computers that are very similar in user experience as current iOS devices, but make use of a keyboard and (trackpad). Not meant to replace Macs, but meant for people who aren't comfortable with tablets, but also don't necessarily need a super-powerful computer either. I believe that's why they released full-screen mode with Lion. This is the start of transitioning developers towards this type of application design.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #74 of 105
Interesting quotes... makes me glad we don't have:
OSX home
OSXhome premium
OSX ultimate
OSX training
OSX mobile
OSX xp

The evolution of the former Mac interface is gradual, feature driven and seems to be done with a tremendous amount of thought.
Having a CEO that vaguely speaks of the direction of company is a positive overall. While mystery is more exciting, business likes to know what is coming, and looks as if Cook may be able to retain the theatrical excitement created by Apple as well as indicate to business what is going to happen... which is... we just sold more iOS devices then Mac OS devices over the last 30 years, we are going to kick MS butt from here on out, get on board, all your employees want Apple products.
post #75 of 105
Apple hates professionals.
post #76 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

As to TB it is simply a question of how much of the IP Apple owns or is willing to license. There is no technical reason keeping TB off ARM.

That's good to hear. I think TB would be great on an iPad for lots of uses.

In any event, should Apple wish to use TB on ARM, they should be able to do it for less than the competition -- even if they must license part of the technology from Intel.
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post #77 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The more integrated the two platforms become the more likely people will give up their laptops in favor of a desktop and an iOS devices or two. It isn't a family resemblance that we are looking for but the transparent access to data. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Apple would be better off if the corresponding apps didn't look too much alike.

It's possible, but I see the potential of dedicated computer space in a house or apartment becoming less common going forward.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


As to TB it is simply a question of how much of the IP Apple owns or is willing to license. There is no technical reason keeping TB off ARM.

My understanding is that TB is owned by Intel, and Apple simply owns mini displayport which doesn't have an associated licensing fee, although it's only appeared on a few displays at most outside of Apple branded units. I'm kind of surprised they mentioned this at all considering where ARM is at today. It's still far enough out it's difficult to extrapolate where ARM will be in a few years or what it would be like if scaled up to be suitable as a laptop replacement. The issue is that most people seem to just draw tangents on performance growth rather than trying to analyze a greater portion of the trend in performance acceleration. This would probably make more sense if I drew up a nice graph..... maybe later.

Somehow I don't think it would be an automatic rejection if leaving thunderbolt behind was the only snag. Apple has randomly ditched things in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

But you or I nor most here are not typical users

I do not believe that Apple will remove needed function (like control of where your files go) for sophisticated users.

They will just hide it from view for the typical user who does not need it -- like ~/Library in Lion.


iCloud is a 1.0 release... I believe with a little expansion of capability it will satisfy the needs of most users -- those who can't surf, mail, socialize without an Internet connection.

I'm not sure current infrastructure would hold up to these kinds of bandwidth requirements.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That's good to hear. I think TB would be great on an iPad for lots of uses.

In any event, should Apple wish to use TB on ARM, they should be able to do it for less than the competition -- even if they must license part of the technology from Intel.


Apple provided a connector and debuted it on their machines. They don't seem to own any of it seeing as their mini displayport can be circumvented. Neither of these things seem to carry an associated licensing fee.
post #78 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That's good to hear. I think TB would be great on an iPad for lots of uses.

In any event, should Apple wish to use TB on ARM, they should be able to do it for less than the competition -- even if they must license part of the technology from Intel.

Anand makes a solid argument as to why iDevices won't get TB.

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post #79 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Anand makes a solid argument as to why iDevices won't get TB.

Even I didn't realize the max transfer rate was "that" low.
post #80 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Anand makes a solid argument as to why iDevices won't get TB.

Good read!

Thx for the link!
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