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Apple wins German injunction against Motorola over 'slide-to-unlock' - Page 2

post #41 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Ruling in favor of this patent should be a no-brainer. Did anyone have "slide to unlock" on a phone or tablet before Apple? No. Did this feature show up in all kinds of phones after Apple introduced it? Yes. Case closed.

There is one very rudimentary digital example of slide that didn't quite unlock but left to right initiated a YES and right to left a NO. But it's not on a capacitance display and has UI showing this action. There is also no evidence that the company patented the method or evidence that there implementation could somehow encompass what Apple patented across their very focused usage and hardware method.

Here is a video:

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post #42 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Ruling in favor of this patent should be a no-brainer. Did anyone have "slide to unlock" on a phone or tablet before Apple? No. Did this feature show up in all kinds of phones after Apple introduced it? Yes. Case closed.

Common sense doesn't have any legal precedent or weight, sadly.
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post #43 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

Because it's synonymous with turning a door knob? Do you think that "turning a knob to open a door" should be patented?

You just showed a complete lack of understanding the intent behind the patent system.

Next you'll cite a master lock key locking mechanism negates Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Ferrari, etc., from patenting an implementation of a turn lock system.
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post #44 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

There is one very rudimentary digital example of slide that didn't quite unlock but left to right initiated a YES and right to left a NO. But it's not on a capacitance display and has UI showing this action. There is also no evidence that the company patented the method or evidence that there implementation could somehow encompass what Apple patented across their very focused usage and hardware method.

Here is a video:

Like everyone else, I'm sure Apple never heard of the neonode n1m, which is why no name-brand phone implemented "swipe to unlock" until Apple did
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post #45 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Here is a video:

Huh, well that's certainly something that few people have heard o-OH OF COURSE "ANDROIDCENTRAL" REPORTS ON THIS WHY WAS I EVER CONFUSED AS TO THE SOURCE OF THIS INFORMATION.

And they say Android followers aren't out to get anyone.
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post #46 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Like everyone else, I'm sure Apple never heard of the neonode n1m, which is why no name-brand phone implemented "swipe to unlock" until Apple did

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Huh, well that's certainly something that few people have heard o-OH OF COURSE "ANDROIDCENTRAL" REPORTS ON THIS WHY WAS I EVER CONFUSED AS TO THE SOURCE OF THIS INFORMATION.

And they say Android followers aren't out to get anyone.

If the way Android slide to unlock is now not in violation of Apple's patent there is simply no way that Apple is violating anything Neonode did. But we're never going to hear the end of it. I think in 20 years some asshat will still bring it up as proof that Apple stole the idea.

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post #47 of 82
2/16/12 at 7:52pm
Does it really matter who did or didn't steal the slide to unlock idea? It's hardly a Nobel Prize idea. And as much as I admire Apple and their products, here is the truth: whether people here want to admit it or not, or choose to blast me for saying it, it is not beneath Apple to steal ideas.

What is far more interesting is the ping pong match going on here. This is somewhat of a simplification: Samsung & Moto are using telecom patents to try and beat Apple, whereas Apple is attacking with computer UX technology. It is a clash of the old world against the new.
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post #48 of 82
2/16/12 at 8:53pm
These arguments are always total BS. It isn't as though Apple is all that good at keeping a secret, dispite popular myth. Anyone who was slightly tuned in knew even five years in advance that Apple was developing a tablet. That is what that guy from macosrumors.com was always rambling about, trying not to be specific. For two years before the iPhone everyone knew Apple was working on a phone.

Then the story was that everyone was holding off on producing a tablet until they had a look at what Apple was coming out with.

The solution is simple, it everything Apple does is so obvious, just do it before Apple and beat them to the punch.
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post #49 of 82
2/16/12 at 9:09pm
MacOSRumours, blast from the past. Were Solip and HMurch on the forum there, I seem to recall they might have been?
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post #50 of 82
2/16/12 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

what's bad about Ubuntu? i use it at home and at work as my main machine and run windows as a VM.
its true, linux distros are for people who know what they are doing, aren't afraid to find out how things actually work, and utilize the power inherent in the OS. anyone who says it isn't extremely capable and useful for many, many things is just a moron.
i am using it now to post this, is that somehow less a 'value' for my time than you posting on this forum with OS X or ipad or whatever you are using? of course not.

iTunes doesn't work.

Office doesn't work.

Printing was crap before Apple fixed it (CUPS)

KDE is better than Gnome.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #51 of 82
2/16/12 at 9:36pm
Google already has a patent for this.

Also prior art (or utility in this case) has been established by Neonode N1.

http://www.directoryinventor.com/inv..._LeBeau_1.html

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post #52 of 82
2/16/12 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

iTunes doesn't work.

Office doesn't work.

Printing was crap before Apple fixed it (CUPS)

KDE is better than Gnome.

More importantly, Apple's FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD/Darwin underpinnings offers all that Linux does as an actual UNIX OS, but Ubuntu offers nothing for the User Experience and App level experience that OS X offers.

I'm typing on Debian Linux Sid [12 years and running along-side OS X on two other systems].

KDE 4.7.x is still half baked and so is GNOME 3.x

If Apple ever wanted to produce OS X Server to run Big Iron they could tomorrow. We had test harness solutions for massive solutions but never saw it as a business case for Apple.
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post #53 of 82
2/16/12 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelus View Post

These arguments are always total BS. It isn't as though Apple is all that good at keeping a secret, dispite popular myth. Anyone who was slightly tuned in knew even five years in advance that Apple was developing a tablet. That is what that guy from macosrumors.com was always rambling about, trying not to be specific. For two years before the iPhone everyone knew Apple was working on a phone.

Then the story was that everyone was holding off on producing a tablet until they had a look at what Apple was coming out with.

The solution is simple, it everything Apple does is so obvious, just do it before Apple and beat them to the punch.

Shhhh ... don't give away the secret. Just do it and make yourself the next Steve Jobs. Sounds so simple, the way you put it...
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post #54 of 82
2/16/12 at 10:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Shhhh ... don't give away the secret. Just do it and make yourself the next Steve Jobs. Sounds so simple, the way you put it...

The problem is, these android love children just recently discovered that the only place where cool stuff is happening in the tech world is at Apple, so suddenly they are all reading AI.

"Let's go to Appleinsider and find out what cool things will soon be coming to Android."

It wouldn't be so sad if the guys at Google didn't so obviously wet their pants at every Apple release. .... recent rumor: the guys at Google working night and day trying 'invent' a responds to Siri. "Lets pretend we got it from Star Trek"

Duh....Apple has been buying voice and personal assistant companies for years, the Siri guys were even giving demos, you would think someone would know what Apple was up to.

Another little hint.... 3D mapping.....say no more
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post #55 of 82
2/16/12 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic View Post

Double tapping? 4 finger taps? One finger in the upper left corner, one in the lower right corner? Holding a finger (or fingers) on the screen for 3 seconds? Shaking the phone a certain way? Turning it upside-down then right-side up? Swiping anywhere (no image)?
There's 7 different ways I took all of 2 minutes to write, and I'm not a highly paid software designer.
Not that any of these are as easy and intuitive as swiping an image to unlock...

Shaking or turning the phone are obviously not a way to prevent accidental unlocking, so they don't fulfill the desired function and cannot be considered. All of the rest are some form of interaction with the screen, and those that don't rely on both spatial and temporal coordination of the input are very error prone and so useless (double tapping, seriously?). Swiping without an image is interesting, I wonder what your thought is the screen should be doing while we're unlocking it: be completely black, or white? Both of these are images nevertheless, however uninformative. So, what other way is there to unlock a screen without interacting with it as specified in Apple's patent?
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post #56 of 82
2/16/12 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If the way Android slide to unlock is now not in violation of Apple's patent there is simply no way that Apple is violating anything Neonode did. But we're never going to hear the end of it. I think in 20 years some asshat will still bring it up as proof that Apple stole the idea.

below is the post where i can say your 'dream come true'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Google already has a patent for this.

Also prior art (or utility in this case) has been established by Neonode N1.

http://www.directoryinventor.com/inv..._LeBeau_1.html

my way or the highway...

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my way or the highway...

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post #57 of 82
2/16/12 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Google already has a patent for this.

Also prior art (or utility in this case) has been established by Neonode N1.

(spam link removed)

For the record, this is just you saying that prior art exists.

You make it sound like some court somewhere has established that the Neonode N1 is definitely "prior art" when in fact it's not the case at all.

A bunch of folks with no law degrees and not much idea about patent law have pointed to the Neonode N1 as prior art for the swipe patent, but that doesn't make it a fact. It's not being used by any of the defendants or actual lawyers involved in the case which should tell you something (that is if watching the video doesn't reveal that it isn't really similar "art" to the patent in question).

The "gesture" in the video (if one can rightly call it that), is neither the same thing as the patent describes nor even anything new. A similar gesture was used in Palm devices and they copied it from the Newton. So Apple did it first no matter how you look at it.
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post #58 of 82
2/17/12 at 1:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

For the record, this is just you saying that prior art exists.

You make it sound like some court somewhere has established that the Neonode N1 is definitely "prior art" when in fact it's not the case at all.

A bunch of folks with no law degrees and not much idea about patent law have pointed to the Neonode N1 as prior art for the swipe patent, but that doesn't make it a fact. It's not being used by any of the defendants or actual lawyers involved in the case which should tell you something (that is if watching the video doesn't reveal that it isn't really similar "art" to the patent in question).

The "gesture" in the video (if one can rightly call it that), is neither the same thing as the patent describes nor even anything new. A similar gesture was used in Palm devices and they copied it from the Newton. So Apple did it first no matter how you look at it.

As someone bereft of a law degree I don't understand your point.

From the link provided-

"It did work as expected in the Netherlands though, and Samsung has already brought the lowly Neonode N1m in front of the court there -- and had Apple's claims over slide to unlock determined to be "trivial and likely invalid", and the court refused to consider them."

The above seems to suggest that a bunch of folk with law degrees in Holland determined that it was prior art.
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post #59 of 82
2/17/12 at 1:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Huh, well that's certainly something that few people have heard o-OH OF COURSE "ANDROIDCENTRAL" REPORTS ON THIS WHY WAS I EVER CONFUSED AS TO THE SOURCE OF THIS INFORMATION.

And they say Android followers aren't out to get anyone.

If you'd prefer to believe a non-android site..

http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/
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post #60 of 82
2/17/12 at 1:43am
I guess that we should be grateful that the process of patenting virtually everything is relatively new. Otherwise phones would be awfully expensive. Want to use a pin number on your phone- give us $5. Want to click on a hyperlink- that'll be £5 to BT, want to surf html sites on your phone- pay Annygraaf, and so on.
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post #61 of 82
2/17/12 at 2:07am
Given that Windows phone uses this feature, and that Microsoft has assured OEMs IP free headaches, does this mean that MS licence it from apple?

If so they must have a lot of reciprocal agreements.
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post #62 of 82
2/17/12 at 2:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Shaking or turning the phone are obviously not a way to prevent accidental unlocking, so they don't fulfill the desired function and cannot be considered. All of the rest are some form of interaction with the screen, and those that don't rely on both spatial and temporal coordination of the input are very error prone and so useless (double tapping, seriously?). Swiping without an image is interesting, I wonder what your thought is the screen should be doing while we're unlocking it: be completely black, or white? Both of these are images nevertheless, however uninformative. So, what other way is there to unlock a screen without interacting with it as specified in Apple's patent?

pre iphone- power button followed by pin additionally touching predefined parts of the screen in a given order, ie graphical pin.
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post #63 of 82
2/17/12 at 4:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Absolutely!

- The 'circular unlock' feature on the Xoom, current HTC Sense and ICS devices is not only imune to these claims, but also vastly superior in function to other generic 'slide to unlock' designs... especially as user selectable apps can be added to the circle for quick access.



Anyway...This whole 'slide-to-unlock' along a designated path has become a bit old/tired i.e circa 2007, with Google already having come up with something far more innovative that's pretty much ready for implementation.


problem is that IBM has a patent on circular menus (or selecting an item from a circle of items) so this feature of selecting items on the unlock screen, will butt up against "big blue" IBM. ...people seem to think that they can pick a fight with apple... does google also think it can win against the "god" of computing(IBM) lol? (ok blasphemy but true..)
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post #64 of 82
2/17/12 at 4:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Shaking or turning the phone are obviously not a way to prevent accidental unlocking, so they don't fulfill the desired function and cannot be considered. All of the rest are some form of interaction with the screen, and those that don't rely on both spatial and temporal coordination of the input are very error prone and so useless (double tapping, seriously?). Swiping without an image is interesting, I wonder what your thought is the screen should be doing while we're unlocking it: be completely black, or white? Both of these are images nevertheless, however uninformative. So, what other way is there to unlock a screen without interacting with it as specified in Apple's patent?

the circle method, or the OH method as in "OH let my turn on my phone" lol.

how about the letter method (uh, on second thought, because letters have vertical or horizontal strokes in them, that method would infringe. ) wow, the only letter in the alphbet without v/h strokes... "O" hence the non-infringement. W..S.. too complex, C...close to "O".
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post #65 of 82
2/17/12 at 4:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

pre iphone- power button followed by pin additionally touching predefined parts of the screen in a given order, ie graphical pin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haar View Post

the circle method, or the OH method as in "OH let my turn on my phone" lol.

how about the letter method (uh, on second thought, because letters have vertical or horizontal strokes in them, that method would infringe. ) wow, the only letter in the alphbet without v/h strokes... "O" hence the non-infringement. W..S.. too complex, C...close to "O".

The thing is, I believe any of these are also covered by Apple's patent. In the patent, they give slide-to-unlock only as an example, but their more general definition includes any gestures performed on an image, which should include tapping a code onto image of a numeric keypad as well. It's not just the slide gesture, if it was the patent would be invalid since clearly there is prior art on the gesture used for unlocking.

I appreciate all of your ideas, you give them for free and they take you less than a few minutes of thinking. How much do you think Apple invested in coming up with their method?
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post #66 of 82
2/17/12 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

iTunes doesn't work.

Office doesn't work.

Printing was crap before Apple fixed it (CUPS)

KDE is better than Gnome.

iTunes doesn't work. (Pure junk)

Office doesn't work. (this is what stupid people use)

Printing was crap before Apple fixed it (CUPS) (printing is working fine on my machine both locally and via ip. you must just be a dullard)

KDE is better than Gnome (could have been, should have been, maybe later)
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post #67 of 82
2/17/12 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelus View Post

The problem is, these android love children just recently discovered that the only place where cool stuff is happening in the tech world is at Apple, so suddenly they are all reading AI.

"Let's go to Appleinsider and find out what cool things will soon be coming to Android."

It wouldn't be so sad if the guys at Google didn't so obviously wet their pants at every Apple release. .... recent rumor: the guys at Google working night and day trying 'invent' a responds to Siri. "Lets pretend we got it from Star Trek"

Duh....Apple has been buying voice and personal assistant companies for years, the Siri guys were even giving demos, you would think someone would know what Apple was up to.

Another little hint.... 3D mapping.....say no more

"Let's go to Appleinsider and find out what cool things will soon be coming to Android." No, its more like going to the zoo to laugh at the monkeys and watch them throw their own poo.
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post #68 of 82
2/17/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

Because it's synonymous with turning a door knob? Do you think that "turning a knob to open a door" should be patented?

You might have a point if your point were true.


If I invented a new way to open doors, I would patent that too. This is actually nothing like turning a door knob. Sure as heck is not synonymous with it.
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post #69 of 82
2/17/12 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

The thing is, I believe any of these are also covered by Apple's patent. In the patent, they give slide-to-unlock only as an example, but their more general definition includes any gestures performed on an image, which should include tapping a code onto image of a numeric keypad as well. It's not just the slide gesture, if it was the patent would be invalid since clearly there is prior art on the gesture used for unlocking.

I appreciate all of your ideas, you give them for free and they take you less than a few minutes of thinking. How much do you think Apple invested in coming up with their method?

You would be wrong. A standard input like tapping on any type of keypad would not be covered by this patent.
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post #70 of 82
2/17/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Absolutely!

- The 'circular unlock' feature on the Xoom, current HTC Sense and ICS devices is not only imune to these claims,


So these devices do not use an image to guide the user. I can 'swipe' a circle anywhere on the screen that I wish to unlock the phone.

Because as I understand Apple's patent it is for a gesture preset in the software and performed in a preset place with an image and/or text to guide the user to the correct spot and gesture.

Which means, depending on exactly how this circle works, Apple could be able to win an appeal that in fact they are not immune.
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post #71 of 82
2/17/12 at 1:17pm
Hey Motorola, slide this:



I don't think the Neonode's method is quite the same. Apple's patent states:

"The device displays one or more unlock images with respect to which the predefined gesture is to be performed in order to unlock the device. The performance of the predefined gesture with respect to the unlock image may include moving the unlock image to a predefined location and/or moving the unlock image along a predefined path."

The patent could sort of describe the Neonode method if you cut out the conditionals but it doesn't use an identifier to perform the unlock, you just slide across the bottom of the screen. There's no interactive animation to the unlocking.

Still, I'm sure Apple wouldn't like if someone else held a patent on keycode entry that would prevent them using a pin unlock system. They could have let this one slide but in light of the blatant plagiarism of Apple's unique designs, these Android device manufacturers and Google deserve to have at least some lawsuits go through protecting Apple's uniqueness.
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post #72 of 82
2/17/12 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

For the record, this is just you saying that prior art exists.

You make it sound like some court somewhere has established that the Neonode N1 is definitely "prior art" when in fact it's not the case at all.

I guess you havent followed the Samsung vs Apple in the Holland case now have you?

What the courts will do is invalidate Apple's latest "patent" (not a patent of course) in the trial as prior art/ utility was already established before.

You dont believe me?

Here is facts for you:

http://www.androidcentral.com/apple-...ey-invented-it

Quote:
It did work as expected in the Netherlands though, and Samsung has already brought the lowly Neonode N1m in front of the court there -- and had Apple's claims over slide to unlock determined to be "trivial and likely invalid", and the court refused to consider them.


Quote:
when in fact it's not the case at all.

So much for fact checking, "Professor".

You got served.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #73 of 82
2/17/12 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

"Let's go to Appleinsider and find out what cool things will soon be coming to Android." No, its more like going to the zoo to laugh at the monkeys and watch them throw their own poo.

I hear yah, a lot more fun than hanging out at Android rumor sites chatting about how Google plans to ape Apple.
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post #74 of 82
2/19/12 at 2:50am
  • hmm
  • Keylogger
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Ferrari View Post

'Obvious' only because it's been around on Apple devices for 5 years? Intermittent wipers are obvious now, but I'm sure to Robert Kearns in 1963, it was novel and innovative.

It wasn't seen in a phone before. It had been seen in sci fi and in door locks going back decades.



Same idea different use... Slide to unlock isn't a new concept. It's only new to phones at best. Other phones had gestures before the iphone too, just nothing with global recognition. I think one was actually out of Germany. I'll look for the link again later.
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post #75 of 82
2/19/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

It wasn't seen in a phone before. It had been seen in sci fi and in door locks going back decades.



Same idea different use... Slide to unlock isn't a new concept. It's only new to phones at best. Other phones had gestures before the iphone too, just nothing with global recognition. I think one was actually out of Germany. I'll look for the link again later.

It doesn't have to be a new concept, it just has to be a unique implementation. Would you disallow patenting the pogo stick because people have been jumping up and down for a long time? The telegraph because of smoke signals? How could Edison patent the light bulb, when candles had been doing the same thing for so long?

Somehow whenever it involves Apple we get into these insane standards of innovation that would preclude the entire concept of invention, for anyone, ever.

Since new ideas don't come from the bizarro dimension and leave us all mystified as to what they even do, of course they have antecedents.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #76 of 82
2/19/12 at 3:21pm
Professor Peabody,

I'll take your silence in this matter and a lack of a reply as your admonition of defeat.

Thank you.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #77 of 82
2/19/12 at 3:24pm
@ Galbi,

You're being antagonist trying to provoke PP into an argument. That's not permitted.

"Goodbyeee…"

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post #78 of 82
2/19/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

@ Galbi,

You're being antagonist trying to provoke PP into an argument. That's not permitted.

Completely agree. You already proved your point and being arrogant about it it doesn't gain you any respect.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #79 of 82
2/19/12 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Completely agree. You already proved your point and being arrogant about it it doesn't gain you any respect.

This is a lion's nest. Nobody has respect for me. I'm always being singled out and trampled on

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #80 of 82
2/19/12 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

This is a lion's nest. Nobody has respect for me. I'm always being singled out and trampled on

If you tried to have a rational, intelligent conversation instead of trolling you'd command some respect.

"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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