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Mountain Lion focuses on Cocoa, drops X11 and deprecates Carbon Core

post #1 of 99
Thread Starter 
In a continuation of its efforts to prune OS X of bundled support for alternative platforms to instead focus on Cocoa, Apple's Mountain Lion depreciates more Carbon APIs and drops X11, although users will still be able to install support for running X Window System apps.

X11 gets Javaed

Last year's OS X Lion dropped bundled support for Java Development Kit, which Apple had maintained (albeit often behind the mainline releases of Java) for the Mac throughout the history of OS X's development. Instead, the company shifted its resources to supporting the open source development of Java support for Macs via the OpenJDK project.

Apple is now doing something similar for X11, an environment used to host X Window System software (graphical Unix apps that do not supply a native Mac interface). Under Mountain Lion, the X11 package Apple formerly offered as an optional install is now missing. Rather than offering to install the optional X11 package, Mountain Lion now prompts users to install open source support for X11 software on their own.




Similar to its delegation of the maintenance of Mac Java to the open source community, Apple will continue to support XQuartz, the open source project that develops the software Apple's own X11 package currently uses.

As with spinning off Java, the X11 shift allows Apple to focus on its own Cocoa software while still offering an option for Mac users with a need to run non-native Mac software. While the OpenJDK's first full Mac build of Java SE7 has yet to be released, XQuartz already offers a ready to use X11 package.

The software made available by XQuartz directly is also newer than the X11 package Apple has bundled with OS X since the 10.5 Tiger release. By spinning off X11 to the open source community, users will be able to obtain the newest software builds on their own without having to worry about it being overwritten by OS Software Update patches.

The focus on Cocoa

OS X is based directly upon the NeXTSTEP operating system and development environment, technologies that Apple branded as "Yellow Box" and then "Cocoa" when it began its efforts to transition Mac users and developers to the more sophisticated and modern APIs after acquiring NeXT at the end of 1996.

Given Apple's rough financial shape and its poor track record at delivering new software according to plan, many developers were hesitant to invest in learning and using the new Cocoa, particularly those who were already heavily invested in software dependent upon the Classic Mac OS, a set of APIs Apple referred to as "Blue Box" and then "Carbon" as it worked to create a composite operating system capable of running both.

Apple also tried to broaden adoption for the new Mac OS X by including support for Sun's Java and later added official X11 support, hoping to make the Mac hospitable to any available software. Pundits even began to speculate that Apple might release a "Red Box" capable of hosting Microsoft's Windows software.

However, when Apple released iPhone in 2007 it did so using only Cocoa APIs, forcing developers to unify their efforts on a single development platform. Apple didn't include support for Java ME, then the largest mobile software platform, and invested no efforts to promote mobile development using Adobe Flash or Flash Lite on its new smartphone. In contrast, Google embraced and extended Java ME with Android, and subsequently promoted it as the premier platform for (the now defunct) mobile Flash.

The incredible success of the iOS platform, which is now several times larger than OS X, has enabled Apple to refocus its ongoing development of OS X on Cocoa, enabling the company to finally deprecate more and more of the old Carbon. That process really got started in 10.5 Leopard when the company released support for 64-bit user interface APIs exclusively for Cocoa.

In early 2008, Adobe and other developers complained that Apple's decision not to release the same 64-bit support for Carbon would delay the delivery of their 64-bit apps. Even Apple wasn't able to deliver a 64-bit version of Final Cut Pro until this year.

Apple's persistent pursuit of unifying OS X development around Cocoa (along with its termination of support for PowerPC code) has resulted in a rapid transition in Mac software to modern Cocoa and Intel 64-bit apps. Apple's previous transition from 68K processors of the 80s dragged on for a decade with emulated code, and Apple similarly maintained Carbon support for about a decade longer than it originally wanted.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 99
Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #3 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.

And even though it's not deleted when you do a simple upgrade from Lion as so many of them will be!

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
Reply
post #4 of 99
It's a good thing that I never bothered to upgrade my Blackbook to Lion, because if what they are saying is true, then Mountain Lion will not work on it!

That's ok though. Snow Leopard for life, at least for that machine!
post #5 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And even though it's not deleted when you do a simple upgrade from Lion as so many of them will be!

How would you feel if someone deprecated on you? That shouldn't be done to anyone.
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #6 of 99
The headline got me worried. If it's still downloadable then who cares?
post #7 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

How would you feel if someone deprecated on you? That shouldn't be done to anyone.

"I'm going to deprecate you so hard you'll be measuring your bandwidth in baud rate." How OSes shit talk each other?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #8 of 99
I have old Carbon games I still like to play!

And I also have an old Mac that plays them just great So Ill hang on to a legacy machine, if legacy apps are important to me. While Id love the idea of having every app I ever owned still run on a new machine I purchase in 2014, reality is that things move forward! And I reap the benefits when they do.

(I hopesomedaythat Classic/Rosetta/Carbon/etc. are possible and legal in some kind of emulator or 3rd-party environment, the way I can run Amiga apps on my Mac today.)
post #9 of 99
I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.
post #10 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

It makes sense to me for X11 to be optional. They should do the same with extra fonts and printer drivers.
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #11 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I have old Carbon games I still like to play!

And I also have an old Mac that plays them just great So I’ll hang on to a legacy machine, if legacy apps are important to me. While I’d love the “idea” of having every app I ever owned still run on a new machine I purchase in 2014, reality is that things move forward! And I reap the benefits when they do.

(I hope—someday—that Classic/Rosetta/Carbon/etc. are possible and legal in some kind of emulator or 3rd-party environment, the way I can run Amiga apps on my Mac today.)

I agree and the same for Lisa, Apple ][ and ///. I have tried a few of the attempts over the years for these (SheepShaver etc.) but they all suck pretty badly. I'd love something as professional as VMMare that could also be an emulator with legally sanctioned ROMs included (imagine a pull menu down with a selection of ROMs). I'd be happy to pay for this. Then I'd just need a USB 400K and 800K Mac external disk drive designed to go with it ....
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #12 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

The headline got me worried. If it's still downloadable then who cares?

You shouldn't care or be worried really. But there are people who just want a reason to complain so they'll do it even when there's no reason to.
post #13 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

It makes sense to me for X11 to be optional. They should do the same with extra fonts and printer drivers.

I think they did this with print drivers for Lion which is why I think the size dropped considerably.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #14 of 99
I used X Windows when OS X first came out, mostly for games and stuff that wasn't available at the time as OS X software. But as time has gone on, I've used it less and less. I used to keep Fink and Fink Commander until FC was so far out of date, then switched to port and Porticus, but now even Porticus is abandonware. I still have port installed, as I like to have some niceties in the terminal, but X11 is never used by me anymore.
NW '98
"Everything works, in theory..."
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NW '98
"Everything works, in theory..."
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post #15 of 99
I use X11 every now and then. I still think it is a good idea not to include it.

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post #16 of 99
I do seem to remember that X11 was a security hole to OSX. Beside I've never known anyone who needed or used it. I sure didn't
post #17 of 99
As a long time user of Xquartz, this is a good decision. The bundled version was always old.
post #18 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.

I won't say the headline didn't have me a bit worried, but I'm fine with the actual turn of events.
post #19 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

I do seem to remember that X11 was a security hole to OSX. Beside I've never known anyone who needed or used it. I sure didn't

It's useful if you're a developer. There's a lot of tools that use it.

I also use it for GIMP.
post #20 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.

Apple continues to cater to consumerism while ignoring the wants of their pro users. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.

I am not the only developer that feels this way.
post #21 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.

Apple continues to screw the pro users and cater to consumerism. Not a good trend for *producers*.

I use X11 daily as well and fail to see how this instance screws the pro user or dev.
post #22 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

I do seem to remember that X11 was a security hole to OSX. Beside I've never known anyone who needed or used it. I sure didn't

Please, don't tell us things you "seem to remember". Why waste our time with your misinformation?
post #23 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.

Apple continues to screw the pro users and cater to consumerism. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.

XQuartz has been the replacement for X11.app going on 3 years and running. If you use X windows on OS X then you know this.
post #24 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

XQuartz has been the replacement for X11.app going on 3 years and running. If you use X windows on OS X then you know this.

I never said X11.app. I said X11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System). Thanks though.
post #25 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.

Apple continues to cater to consumerism while ignoring the wants of their pro users. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.

I am not the only developer that feels this way.

I think Apple is just getting to a point where it realizes it doesn't have to manage things like X11 and Java. Those are best suited as downloads for people that need it.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #26 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.

Sure. Those who do not want commercial Photoshop may be using GIMP that is X11 application and very powerful alternative to basic Photoshop Elements. I do use it because it is free... and even though on other Mac (for design buisness) we have whole slew of licensed pro apps from Adobe and Quark I prefer something lightweight most of the time.



There are few more.

Thank God OpenOffice has moved to newer API few years ago so we do not need X11 for this one.
post #27 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I think Apple is just getting to a point where it realizes it doesn't have to manage things like X11 and Java. Those are best suited as downloads for people that need it.

That is very true. They do not need to keep working on them. They just need to keep the doors open for them.

First thing Idd when getting my MBA with Lion was to install Java. I may do the same with X11 with next system upgrade.
post #28 of 99
I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.

And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #29 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciekskontakt View Post

That is very true. They do not need to keep working on them. They just need to keep the doors open for them.

First thing Idd when getting my MBA with Lion was to install Java. I may do the same with X11 with next system upgrade.

First, you'll have to tell ML you don't want to install "only signed binaries and AppStore purchases".

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #30 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I have old Carbon games I still like to play!

And I also have an old Mac that plays them just great So I’ll hang on to a legacy machine, if legacy apps are important to me. While I’d love the “idea” of having every app I ever owned still run on a new machine I purchase in 2014, reality is that things move forward! And I reap the benefits when they do.

(I hope—someday—that Classic/Rosetta/Carbon/etc. are possible and legal in some kind of emulator or 3rd-party environment, the way I can run Amiga apps on my Mac today.)

Is there any way to run SL (or earlier) in a virtual machine well enough for gaming? I'd love to play Starcraft or Diablo 2 again...


----

On a practical standpoint, I think that Apple should not "have" (politically speaking) to support X11 or anything else that's not directly related to their new machines. Their success proved that shedding old snakeskins is a good thing for computing. However, if they do so, they should make it easy for people to create the necessary software (emulation layers, for example). This is incompatible with Apple's current "let's go full AppStore" walled garden model, as I said earlier.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #31 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

----

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

1. I thought about what you wrote, but since I've read such comments back in the early 90s, I thought I'd pass on the following, "I still don't give a sh!t for your hurt feelings."

2. Since you apparently have never searched for alternatives, allow me to offer you the following: http://www.fsf.org/

3. Please don't whimper in public; it's unmanly. Buy an Android device and wait for Win8.

Cheers
post #32 of 99
I don't think Carbon Core will affect the big apps like CS4, Shake, Quicktime Pro, Final Cut Pro 7 but we'll see. This is going to make it harder to figure out what apps are compatible though as you expect universal apps will just work and now it won't be the case.
post #33 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.

And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

Cool story bro. Please use windows and spare us your concern-trolling whining of fictional and hypothetical situations. There's no justification to assume Apple will completely take away the ability to install any type of software in the future- that's just your imagination. Unlike you, I have read in depth about gatekeeper, what it is, and what it does, and based on this I support it as a default option, which will benefit most users. Any developer can request a key, there is no vetting involved. The system makes sure the code has not been maliciously modified by a 3rd party after it has been signed. If this is something you personally feel you don't want, turning it off forever takes a full 5 seconds and 2 clicks. As for your knock on the iPhone appstore, consumers have overwhelmingly voted with their money that they love this system, hence its unprecedented success. Android's app model has not seen NEAR the interest nor trust from both consumers and developers. Again, there's a ton of options out there. Stop pretending to speak for most people.
post #34 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.

And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

The world moves on and look, there you are, sat in the corner with your tin foil hat on. Aww diddums.

[insult removed].
post #35 of 99
This is Apple's way of preparing OSX to merge with iOS. They are cleaning out the legacy in preparation for that (I'd say 2014 is when it will happen). X11 and Carbon apps have no place on iOS - at least from Apple.

A clear sign of Apple's further attempts to merge the OSes will be when they discontinue the Power Mac. This is not an "if", but a "when". So that'll mean that FCP and all the other heavy apps that need lots of memory and raw CPU power will need beefy portable systems to take their place. I'd argue that current the MacBook Pro with an SSD drive would suffice. We'll see what Apple has in store in the coming months.
post #36 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

This is scary.

"What ifs" can help you think about unknowns in ways that can help you see the big picture but they can also get you trapped in the worst possible scenario. That's why you've done and it doesn't make for a well rounded discussion because it's irrational in and of itself.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #37 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone.

So turn it off.

Quote:
And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be.

Like fun. You're in the majority. You know how many OS X developers would up and quit*because of that, even if they were already IN the App Store?

We're safe!

Quote:
Worse, it's the STANDARD setting!

No, standard is "allow from anywhere, warn if not App Store".

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
Reply

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
Reply
post #38 of 99
People need to focus on what they are good at. Apple is good at innovating. They should focus on one platform that they can move forward. Standards-based platforms like Java and Xorg they don't own and don't have total freedom of innovation.

People who use Xorg will be familiar with open source, and installing things manually, and it will be a minor inconvenience to make Xorg the first thing they install. It may even be better, as others have, because there is not 2 conflicting versions on the system, one well out of date. In the same way, I am glad Apple is moving to their own llvm-based complier, so that when I install MacPorts there are not two conflicting versions of gcc on the system.
post #39 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.

And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

I knew whiners like this guy would start coming out of the woodwork. Apparently, it's too difficult to click a link and download a more current and better supported option.

Flame Apple for supposedly taking choice away from the consumer. But wait, now let's also blame Apple when they delegate apps to 3rd parties that would most likely do a better job of supporting it.

Can't win. Haters gonna hate, or spread FUD like this guy.
post #40 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

I never said X11.app. I said X11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System). Thanks though.

Time to make a new AI ID, eh?
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