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Mountain Lion focuses on Cocoa, drops X11 and deprecates Carbon Core - Page 2

post #41 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Flame Apple for supposedly taking choice away from the consumer. But wait, now let's also blame Apple when they delegate apps to 3rd parties that would most likely do a better job of supporting it.

Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.

Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.

Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.
post #42 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

Currently I have to reinstall XQuartz everytime the system gets updated. This is a pain so an open source only solution would actually be better. Then you have the problem of third party software building against different X11 tracts. From the users standpoint this should be much better.

The only concern is that Apple stops supporting XQuartz with their employees.
post #43 of 99
Narrowly focused consumers maybe. But if you keep an open mind, you will find much in the way of useful X11 software.

Yes the ideal is Native Mac software but not everything is or will ever be native.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.

Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.

Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.
post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp

Inkscape. GIMP's drawing sibling. As Illustrator is to Photoshop. I use both GIMP and Inkscape regularly.

And this change won't bother me. Anyone nerdy enough to know what GIMP or Inkscape are, is nerdy enough to install XQuartz. If you know you need it, you can install it. Otherwise it doesn't take up space.

- Jasen.
post #45 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

"I'm going to deprecate you so hard you'll be measuring your bandwidth in baud rate." How OSes shit talk each other?

POST of the WEEK
post #46 of 99
Bold steps to take leaps forward > legacy support.

If it was worth having then, its been remade for the now.
post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Narrowly focused consumers maybe. But if you keep an open mind, you will find much in the way of useful X11 software.

Yes the ideal is Native Mac software but not everything is or will ever be native.

WireShark is all I ever used in terms of X11 stuff. Everything else that I desperately need I run in VMWare Fusion.
post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.

Wireshark...

Wine.. including Crossover and Wineskin... but they bundle their own X11 builds inside, but still rely on some of XQuartz being installed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.

really? thats very short sighted. Java is a major software language that needs to be supported... X11 is also major on other *nix systems since it is THE windowing system on Linux, BSD, etc... it helps in easily making ports. Many current apps still using some Carbon, including stuff like MS Office 2011... hopefully they'll leave it as deprecated for a few versions before removing anything.

You thinking just cuz Apple is getting bigger that they can force the whole world to change to exactly what they want is very short sighted. Just because you have an idea of "proper" doesn't mean its right.

Beyond all that I'm sure some day all of Apple devices will become like iOS devices... slightly better than they are now.. much worse than Macs are now. While I do know ObjC/Cocoa well, and really do like it... as a computer user and not a Phone/Pad user for my main computing... I'm pretty sure in a few years I'll have to go back to Linux, or even use Windows more... Apple is trying to get out of the actual personal computer business and just wants to make an iPad-like focus.
post #49 of 99
This is the sort of gutsy move that has made Apple so successful. They are not afraid to alter the status quo significantly. And this behavior was there even when Apple was not such a massive success as it is today. Whether it is giving up on Floppy disks, moving to USB, deciding to stay away from Flash, stay away from Blu-ray, distributing the OS online, all of this points to a DNA that is very different from other companies out there.

Thankfully we have Apple around, otherwise our computers might still have punch card slots!
post #50 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

Please, don't tell us things you "seem to remember". Why waste our time with your misinformation?

Maybe it's because I see AI as a social place as well as an Apple informational site. If you think I'm a waste of your time, don't read me. \ Besides it's not misinformation because there is or was a security hole in X11 and IMO that is probably why Apple has made it an optional install for sometime now. They don't really don't want it on their OS for those reasons.
post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

True. But sometimes it's the only alternative. E.g. try to find a reasonable (does not convert everything to grainy pixel based images) and affordable SVG to PDF converter and the only one available is InkScape which requires X11.
post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.

Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.

Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.

Hmm ... unless things have really changed in the past month I think X11 is pretty important in the academic world. This seems like an odd move or perhaps Apple is giving up on that small group of users? It's far better for it to be part of the system.

philip
post #53 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

A clear sign of Apple's further attempts to merge the OSes will be when they discontinue the Power Mac. This is not an "if", but a "when".

Actually, it's a "way back when": 2006.

.tsooJ
post #54 of 99
Any guess if the successor of Mountain Lion (OS X 10.8) will have the version number OS X11 (rather than OS X10.9)?
post #55 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

Almost anybody who uses both OS X and some other *nix OS together, or wants to build and run open-source software not written for OS X, will want to have X11. If not to run X11 apps locally, it's invaluable to run remote X11 applications. I don't mind how it developed or distributed, as long as it doesn't mean X11 will break with every OS X update, and keeps up with modern OS X features to integrate with native Mac apps than plain xorg X11, for example.

Not being able to run X11 apps at all could be reason to ditch OS X altogether for me. Yes, it's that important for my use.
post #56 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by wol View Post

Any guess if the successor of Mountain Lion (OS X 10.8) will have the version number OS X11 (rather than OS X10.9)?

I'm guessing Apple will continue to iterate the "ten" schema (10.10, 10.11, etc.) until all devices go iOS-y.
post #57 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

Inkscape. GIMP's drawing sibling. As Illustrator is to Photoshop. I use both GIMP and Inkscape regularly.

And this change won't bother me. Anyone nerdy enough to know what GIMP or Inkscape are, is nerdy enough to install XQuartz. If you know you need it, you can install it. Otherwise it doesn't take up space.

- Jasen.

Plus, we live in an era that even Linux distros are leaving X11 behind.

Check the Wayland ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland...erver_protocol) ) and Ubuntu, for example.
post #58 of 99
I use GIMP, not necessarily daily, but very frequently. I don't foresee a rewrite that'll run without X11. GIMP accomplishes some detail work not possible in, e.g., Pixelmator. And I'm not among the rich and famous who can afford to keep a copy of Photoshop hanging around in the shadows for detail work on *not only* photos but other graphics, for website maintenance. Unless I could find a realistic alternative to GIMP, I *depend* on X11!
post #59 of 99
The only time I have ever used X11 was for Gimp.
post #60 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.

I used it once, a long time ago. I'll miss it like I miss PowerPC support.
Thank you, Apple for not bloating OS X after 10 years. This isn't Windows, after all.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #61 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by unother View Post

I'm guessing Apple will continue to iterate the "ten" schema (10.10, 10.11, etc.) until all devices go iOS-y.

The version odometer wraps at 256.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #62 of 99
Deprecating Carbon also adds another list of good but older games that will also be deprecated. Unlike professional software that is maintained and upgraded every few years or so.

Games have a business model of build it, support for maybe 1-2 years and then move to the next game. Sometimes if we are lucky we get a game ported to work with OSX when Apple decides to change something, but considering many are windows ports and licensed for a set amount of years many games we play have a set expiration on them that is not seen on any other platform.

I'm surprised developers release software on the mac, not only do we have a smaller market share, but Apple requires continuos support far beyond what one would need for windows. (Obviously they are making a profit.)

And I don't doubt in 3 or 4 years, some Cocoa library will become deprecated, or Apple will switch to ARM, etc.

You don't think we need the towers? Hell we'll need the towers to run vmware or virtual box on the metal and run OS 10.5, 10.6, 10.7... just so we have access to all our software. Who wants to rebuy everything, every 2 years? Or have a room filled with macs... with their hardware slowly dying.
post #63 of 99
Since M.Lion is only av as download. This would be another step to reduce the download size.
post #64 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

Wireshark...

Wine.. including Crossover and Wineskin... but they bundle their own X11 builds inside, but still rely on some of XQuartz being installed.



really? thats very short sighted. Java is a major software language that needs to be supported... X11 is also major on other *nix systems since it is THE windowing system on Linux, BSD, etc... it helps in easily making ports. Many current apps still using some Carbon, including stuff like MS Office 2011... hopefully they'll leave it as deprecated for a few versions before removing anything.

You thinking just cuz Apple is getting bigger that they can force the whole world to change to exactly what they want is very short sighted. Just because you have an idea of "proper" doesn't mean its right.

Beyond all that I'm sure some day all of Apple devices will become like iOS devices... slightly better than they are now.. much worse than Macs are now. While I do know ObjC/Cocoa well, and really do like it... as a computer user and not a Phone/Pad user for my main computing... I'm pretty sure in a few years I'll have to go back to Linux, or even use Windows more... Apple is trying to get out of the actual personal computer business and just wants to make an iPad-like focus.

Force the whole world to change? They already did that with iOS - play with Apple's rules or don't.

500k apps and 24bn downloads later and I think Apple are quite valid in thinking that they can (and will) dictate how people develop software on their platform.

As for X11 - we've managed to name 3 applications that need it. As for Academia wanting/needing X11 - they can still download an open source. However, having a sister who just bought an MBP for university, I can assure you that any idea that X11 is needed across academia is misguided and dated. They are more interested in whether you run Word than X11.

But my point for X11 still stands - developers like GIMP have had plenty of time to get themselves onto the OSX platform properly. No one is stopping you downloading an open source, just Apple aren't going to support it themselves.

Does anyone (care to) remember OpenOffice and NeoOffice? Someone at Neo took the time and trouble to recode the OpenOffice interface to Apple APIs (and did a fine job as well), and now OpenOffice does it as standard. So why does GIMP continue to use X11?

And lets stop pretending X11 is some fantastic windowing platform. It's a total nightmare on the Mac - ala Gimp. None of the controls work properly (eg file manager), non of the keystrokes work the way you want or are use to. It's a pile of crap that should long have support OSX UI APIs.


As for Java, another crap platform. I have rarely met a Java application that I've liked, or felt was very stable. But I've met plenty on both the OSX and Windows platform that are total garbage - and from mainstream software developers (like HP, IBM and bunches of others). They are buggy as hell, inconsistent UI (because they are determined to draw their own buttons rather than call the OS), and so forth.
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Since M.Lion is only av as download. This would be another step to reduce the download size.

Lion didn't care much about that. Physical size is way less important than active resources used. If they could get it to sip RAM and CPU cycles, it can balloon to 8GB for all I care.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #66 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tru_canuk View Post

You shouldn't care or be worried really. But there are people who just want a reason to complain so they'll do it even when there's no reason to.

Nope. There are also people who really need this.

I use Crossover/Wine a lot and not having X11 would be very bad. However, it's not when it is downloadable.

Sometimes there actually are reasons to complain... today isn't one of them. :-)
post #67 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post

The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.

Apple continues to cater to consumerism while ignoring the wants of their pro users. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.

I am not the only developer that feels this way.

You should be glad about this not angry. As a programmer I'm sure you'd want to be on feature parity with other developers which you aren't as it stands currently.

Is it just me or are developers not entirely objective in their approach to changes? Surely if something is going to make your life better and easier you'd want it wouldn't you?
post #68 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

Nope. There are also people who really need this.

I use Crossover/Wine a lot and not having X11 would be very bad. However, it's not when it is downloadable.

Sometimes there actually are reasons to complain... today isn't one of them. :-)

No one is preventing you from running X11 though! Apple are just saying that you have to press a button to download if you need it, and that they are passing the role of support off onto the community that created it.



edit, apologies for quoting you, i've managed to quote the wrong person.
post #69 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciekskontakt View Post

Sure. Those who do not want commercial Photoshop may be using GIMP that is X11 application and very powerful alternative to basic Photoshop Elements. I do use it because it is free... and even though on other Mac (for design buisness) we have whole slew of licensed pro apps from Adobe and Quark I prefer something lightweight most of the time.

I prefer Pixelmator. Trounces Photoshop and GIMP in terms of speed and requirements, leverages OS X features (hence most of the speed), and is quite cheap.
post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.

I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.

I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.

And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).

Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.

This is scary.

This post is ridiculous. OS developers do this all the time INCLUDING Linux. They always give you options though and Apple is no different. Why does Apple have to do everything when others can do the job better? Why does Apple have to develop its own version of Java when Oracle can do it better? Why does Apple have to develop their version of X11 when X11 can provide a better version?

Apple is trimming the fat that isn't needed by the majority. Let me ask you this. What version of Windows comes with Java, Flash Player, and X11? NONE. There never has been a version with these features so why get upset when Apple makes that same decision?

It's far better that the developers do their own work rather than rely on Apple doing the dirty work for them. That way people can choose if they need it or not.
post #71 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

Why does Apple have to do everything when others can do the job better?

But when Apple does include something it can value they get accused from controlling too much. They can't win with some people.

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post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Lion didn't care much about that. Physical size is way less important than active resources used. If they could get it to sip RAM and CPU cycles, it can balloon to 8GB for all I care.

But Lion was mostly a ground up rewrite so it needed to be larger in file size. If Mountain Lion can come in as a kind of delta upgrade then the file sizes will only need to be huge when reinstalling from scratch as you have to download an entire OS.
post #73 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Bold steps to take leaps forward > legacy support.

If it was worth having then, its been remade for the now.

I couldn't agree more and this has been something I always admired about Apple vs other OS alternatives.
post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

But Lion was mostly a ground up rewrite so it needed to be larger in file size.

No, it wasn't. And it wasn't any larger or smaller than any other recent OS X release.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #75 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.

People get angry at apple but really they should get angry at the lazy developers who don't even take the time to adjust to simple changes like building a package installer vs drag n drop. We work with professional vendors for window platforms who are just now putting resources into moving their product to Win 7.
post #76 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, it wasn't. And it wasn't any larger or smaller than any other recent OS X release.

I was thinking in the sense that the whole thing was written for 64bit. Snow Leopard was still largely implementing 32bit. As such Lion required a full upgrade to a lot of system stuff to be 64bit.

With the underlying infrastructure being 64bit it now only needs to be stuff they've changed since which can in fact be done in a sort of delta-update fashion as opposed to a massive upgrade like what happened with Lion.
post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

I was thinking in the sense that the whole thing was written for 64bit. Snow Leopard was still largely implementing 32bit. As such Lion required a full upgrade to a lot of system stuff to be 64bit.

Not all of the Lion system stuff is 64-bit, that's for sure. Trust me on that one.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #78 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

I was thinking in the sense that the whole thing was written for 64bit. Snow Leopard was still largely implementing 32bit. As such Lion required a full upgrade to a lot of system stuff to be 64bit.

With the underlying infrastructure being 64bit it now only needs to be stuff they've changed since which can in fact be done in a sort of delta-update fashion as opposed to a massive upgrade like what happened with Lion.

Snow Leopard was the re-write that brought you 64 bit Cocoa and legacied Carbon to 32 bit only.

Grand Central Dispatch, LLVM/Clang, OpenCL, CUPS, etc., all came with Snow Leopard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Snow_Leopard
post #79 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

Inkscape. GIMP's drawing sibling. As Illustrator is to Photoshop. I use both GIMP and Inkscape regularly.

And this change won't bother me. Anyone nerdy enough to know what GIMP or Inkscape are, is nerdy enough to install XQuartz. If you know you need it, you can install it. Otherwise it doesn't take up space.

- Jasen.

Inkscape is getting ported to GTK+ 3.x which has Compliant Interfaces to Cocoa.

When the port get's more volunteers to make this happen it will no longer need Xorg on OS X, period.

The same goes for GIMP.

Blender has a Cocoa port.

KDE utilizing Qt 4.8 and 5.x have Cocoa options to make their interfaces mesh with Cocoa.

The sooner they get build scripts for LLVM/Clang the sooner these ports will improve.

Blender already has work on it. There are plenty of Cmake examples inside LLVM/Clang to leverage.
post #80 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Snow Leopard was the re-write that brought you 64 bit Cocoa and legacied Carbon to 32 bit only.

All the system apps were 64-bit but I recall a lot of the processes were still showing up as 32-bit.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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