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Proview ready to negotiate on eve of Shanghai court hearing

post #1 of 81
Thread Starter 
One day before deliberations are scheduled to begin over contested 'iPad' trademark rights in Shanghai, Chinese company Proview has said that it is preparing for out of court talks with Apple which could result in a settlement and bring an end to the prolonged dispute.

In an announcement on Tuesday, Proview's lawyer Xie Xianghui claimed that his legal team was prepping for talks with the tech giant, though declined to give details only saying that Apple had told the company it had "peaceful intentions," reports The Times of India.

"We are now preparing for negotiations," Xie said, adding that the court cases will continue until an agreement is reached.

The news comes on the heels of a minor win for the Shenzhen electronics company, as the Intermediate People's Court of Huizhou handed down a ruling on Monday that effectively banned local electronics store Sundan from selling the iPad 2.

Apple reportedly purchased the rights to the "iPad" name in 2006 from a Taiwan affiliate of Proview Shenzhen, though the Chinese company claims that the transaction was void and sued the iPhone maker in 2011. Proview subsequently asked the Chinese government to ban the import and export of the device earlier this month, though officials said that such a task would be difficult to enforce given the tablet's popularity in the region.

In addition to the pressure Proview is attempting to exert on government agencies, Apple is appealing a lower court ruling in Guangdong province that denied the company rights to the trademark.

Most recently, the world's largest tech company threatened to level a defamation suit against the cash-poor Proview over remarks relating to the ongoing court battle.

Apple has yet to give any official statement regarding the upcoming talks or a possible out of court settlement.


Chinese iPad 2 advertisement. | Source: Apple


Upcoming Shanghai hearing

A Shanghai court is scheduled to deliberate on the validity of Proview's claims on Wednesday, and the outcome would be a major win for either company as it would force Apple to halt sales of it's popular tablet in one of the richest cities in China.

According to Reuters, Xie is hoping for an injunction against the iPad, meaning that Apple would have to stop selling the tablet in one of its biggest Chinese markets. The Cupertino, Calif., company has five flagship stores in the country, three in Shanghai and two in Beijing.

"This is a court in Shanghai which means that it has jurisdiction, and its order should be observed in Shanghai, which is one of the biggest cities and biggest markets for Apple iPads in China," said head of Mayer Brown's Hong Kong intellectual property practice, Kenny Wong.

A judgment would likely take months, however, and Apple always has the option to appeal in the case of a loss.

Proview, on the other hand, is in dire need of financial relief as the Hong Kong Stock Exchange has suspended trading of the company's stock after years of poor earnings. If no viable solution to its cash flow is found, Proview International Holdings, Ltd. will be delisted from the exchange in June.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 81
Translation:
"We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #3 of 81
If I were Apple, there's no way I'd go for a settlement here. The company is already bankrupt, how much longer could they possibly pay court fees? It's starting to look like this whole thing was a sham to possibly get some settlement money from Apple just to make the problem go away.
post #4 of 81
"Every war is won or lost even before it is fought" - Sun Tsu.

The court has probably made the decision and Proview want to settle to get something out of all this. If Apple has a strong case, they should do the "lobbying" in China and then play hardball. Go after the owner of possible. Got to set an example.
post #5 of 81
Oh Lordy! Just change the name over there! Macpad, Macbook Slim. Who cares, just do something, anything but settle.
post #6 of 81
Prediction:
This will be settled within the next 72 hours, and Proview won't go away empty handed. IMO this isn't so much of a big deal that Apple will dig their heels in and refuse to negotiate.
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #7 of 81
Name it "cPad" - Chinese/China Pad... or just let Shanghai and whatever city ban the sales of iPad. Just redirect all stocks to Hong Kong and stock up all the resellers in Hong Kong. The iPads will still end up in the hands of consumers in China, although a more difficult route. After all, it has been that way for every single Apple product that's launched elsewhere first before it gets launch in China.

Hahaha... Let the consumers there flame up and detest Proview... It will be a good show to stand by and watch how furious consumers in China can do...
post #8 of 81
Soon as Apple realized that the name iPad was being used in China, it should have known to pick another name instead of an uphill battle.

Doesn't Apple have documents regarding the purchase of the iPad name that the Chinese courts can look at and give a definitive answer as to whether Apple does indeed own the rights to the name 'iPad' in China or not? China states that Taiwan belongs to China so politics aside, either Proview Taiwan had the right to sell the name in the mainland or not. Yeah, it's never that easy, right?

The sad part is that even if Apple does own full rights to "iPad" on the mainland, they would probably settle out of court in order to avoid lengthy litigation and lost interim sales. So I bet Proview will come out of this laughing all the way to The People's Bank of China.
post #9 of 81
This was Proview's intention all along. Raise enough questions, get enough insiders to help, make it "China vs Apple" so it can get as much money from Apple as possible.
post #10 of 81
Tim Cook will measure his response based on the cost to Apple in money and time wasted and do what is prudent and wise.

Steve Jobs would fly his jet over there and take a perfectly-designed chain saw to their CEO.
post #11 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Translation:
"We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".

The penalty for being found guilty of a major fraud, if this were to be the outcome, can be pretty serious in China. This is one game of poker this Proview guy doesn't want to lose, folding might be the safest move for him.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #12 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstein2010 View Post

This was Proview's intention all along. Raise enough questions, get enough insiders to help, make it "China vs Apple" so it can get as much money from Apple as possible.

I don't have a clue about how that opinion is faring in China, but it's definitely failed in the US.
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It is useless for sheep to pass laws outlawing carnivorism when the wolf is of a different mind.
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post #13 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberzombie View Post

I don't have a clue about how that opinion is faring in China, but it's definitely failed in the US.

Let's just say they play underdog role better than Apple Insider gave them credit for, and Chinese netizens actually buy Proview's story.
post #14 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by j1h15233 View Post

If I were Apple, there's no way I'd go for a settlement here. The company is already bankrupt, how much longer could they possibly pay court fees? It's starting to look like this whole thing was a sham to possibly get some settlement money from Apple just to make the problem go away.

The Proview holding company has already filed for bankruptcy (according to Forbes) and Yang, the Chairman, CEO and moving hand behind this scam was declared bankrupt last year (according to the HK judgment)


Proview and Yang are running on air and clutching at straws, saying they are ready to talk.
post #15 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post

The Proview holding company has already filed for bankruptcy (according to Forbes) and Yang, the Chairman, CEO and moving hand behind this scam was declared bankrupt last year (according to the HK judgment)


Proview and Yang are running on air and clutching at straws, saying they are ready to talk.

His entire strategy could possibly be fraudulent it seems. If so he could be in hot water before this is all over.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #16 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Translation:
"We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".

And for Apple throwing them a bone makes sense. Rather than wasting time even thinking about this shit. I'm serious.
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #17 of 81
Take the Steve Jobs approach, go over there and scare the living crap out of Proview, if it costs 100ML to defeat this, it will not just shut this one down, it will prevent the next one.

A settlement will enable other Trolls to do the same..... This has to go down with the complete and total destruction of Proview!
post #18 of 81
Just give them one dollar and tell them to take or be crushed.
post #19 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post

Soon as Apple realized that the name iPad was being used in China, it should have known to pick another name instead of an uphill battle.

Doesn't Apple have documents regarding the purchase of the iPad name that the Chinese courts can look at and give a definitive answer as to whether Apple does indeed own the rights to the name 'iPad' in China or not? China states that Taiwan belongs to China so politics aside, either Proview Taiwan had the right to sell the name in the mainland or not. Yeah, it's never that easy, right?

The sad part is that even if Apple does own full rights to "iPad" on the mainland, they would probably settle out of court in order to avoid lengthy litigation and lost interim sales. So I bet Proview will come out of this laughing all the way to The People's Bank of China.

Re: the bolded.

You're assuming that everything Proview says is true. Apple says that they bought the name - so there should not have been an uphill battle. And, so far, all the documents support Apple.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #20 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Prediction:
This will be settled within the next 72 hours, and Proview won't go away empty handed. IMO this isn't so much of a big deal that Apple will dig their heels in and refuse to negotiate.


That's been my prediction for a while now.


The terms will be secret. Proview will make a bit of money, and it will not cost Apple any huge amount (compared to Apple's China profits).

One thing to keep in mind: Apple is not necessarily dealing with Proview anymore. IIRC, Proview is in bankruptcy, and is therefore controlled by its creditors. IIRC, Apple will be dealing with big banks.
post #21 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

That's been my prediction for a while now.


The terms will be secret. Proview will make a bit of money, and it will not cost Apple any huge amount (compared to Apple's China profits).

One thing to keep in mind: Apple is not necessarily dealing with Proview anymore. IIRC, Proview is in bankruptcy, and is therefore controlled by its creditors. IIRC, Apple will be dealing with big banks.

And if banks that Proview owed money to want some more, and they have friends in higher places than Apple?

It's what I feared back in Nov 2011. I got an impression during the days of Samsung litigations that, one day, Apple legal team will run into someone bigger or better than them.

That day might be approaching; the day Apple run into someone they cannot win in the court of law using reasons.
post #22 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Translation:
"We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".

Yup, I hope the only "settlement" they get is the finger from Tim Cook.
post #23 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

That's been my prediction for a while now.


The terms will be secret. Proview will make a bit of money, and it will not cost Apple any huge amount (compared to Apple's China profits).

One thing to keep in mind: Apple is not necessarily dealing with Proview anymore. IIRC, Proview is in bankruptcy, and is therefore controlled by its creditors. IIRC, Apple will be dealing with big banks.

Hopefully the merit of the case is not a function of who the participants are since money (as in who can pay lawyers) is taken out of the equation and with Apple that is the case. My point being, if this is a fraudulent case it doesn't matter if it is Proview, i.e. one guy, or an institution such as a bank.
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post #24 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

That's been my prediction for a while now.


The terms will be secret. Proview will make a bit of money, and it will not cost Apple any huge amount (compared to Apple's China profits).

One thing to keep in mind: Apple is not necessarily dealing with Proview anymore. IIRC, Proview is in bankruptcy, and is therefore controlled by its creditors. IIRC, Apple will be dealing with big banks.

I hope Apple doesn't settle, because to many that will mean that they have aided and abetted a global criminal enterprise.
post #25 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Translation:
"We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".

Or translation:
"This is where we show Apple just how many corrupt judges are in our pocket, expecting a piece of the final shakedown price. This is where we show these foreigners what 'rule of law' means in mainland China."

I hope very much that your translation turns out to be more accurate than mine.
post #26 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post


Doesn't Apple have documents regarding the purchase of the iPad name that the Chinese courts can look at and give a definitive answer as to whether Apple does indeed own the rights to the name 'iPad' in China or not? China states that Taiwan belongs to China so politics aside, either Proview Taiwan had the right to sell the name in the mainland or not. Yeah, it's never that easy, right?



Right. It is never that easy.

If the court looks only at the documents, they will conclude that Proview Taiwan did not own the mark in China. They will conclude that Apple did not buy the mark in China from the owner, which was and is Proview Schenzen.

However, if they look beyond the documents, they will discover that Apple got bamboozled by Proview. It may have been all a huge mistake, or it could have been fraud.

If Chinese courts use the same equitable principles as we use here, they might conclude that "what should be done will be done" and order the TM registry to change the owner from Proview Schenzen to Apple.

These things are never cut and dried, because if they were, they would not be going to court. You need disagreements before these things go to court, and you need ambiguous situations.

Here, the question is whether misconduct and broken promises by Proview Taiwan should cause Proview Schenzen to give up a valuable trademark. Now that Proview is controlled by third-party creditors, the equities of the situation must take them into account.
post #27 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post

Soon as Apple realized that the name iPad was being used in China, it should have known to pick another name instead of an uphill battle.

Absolutely insane. If Apple did this, they'd be tacitly conceding that the name they purchased was still the property of these criminals at Proview. What do you think Proview would do? They'd sell Samsung the use of "iPad" in China, and all Samsung's rip-off products would be the "true" iPad there.
post #28 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

And, so far, all the documents support Apple.

No. The contract of sale was entered into with the Taiwan subsidiary, who never owned the rights in China.

The documents are AGAINST Apple.

They have extraneous documents from which one could infer fraud or mistake. The extraneous documents may be enough to get Apple an equitable decision.

But the main document, the one that transfers ownership, is NOT in Apple's favor. It was never signed by the owner of the Chinese trademark.
post #29 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

And for Apple throwing them a bone makes sense. Rather than wasting time even thinking about this shit. I'm serious.

Maybe pay them double of what Apple originally paid? i.e $55,000 x 2 = $110,000.

But, for me, I'd rather that Apple not settle this case at all. There is no merit to Proview's claims, and it doesn't deserve a single cent more, after all that has been done to Apple.

The documents that are released show that Proview Taiwan claimed ownership rights to the trademark in mainland China, and listed it in the schedule of countries included in the trademark sale. Now it is using its subsidiary to claim otherwise.

It appears to be an outright cheating case, so I think Apple should not give an inch of its ground to such behaviour.
post #30 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegalink View Post

Maybe pay them double of what Apple originally paid? i.e $55,000 x 2 = $110,000.

But, for me, I'd rather that Apple not settle this case at all. There is no merit to Proview's claims, and it doesn't deserve a single cent more, after all that has been done to Apple.

The documents that are released show that Proview Taiwan claimed ownership rights to the trademark in mainland China, and listed it in the schedule of countries included in the trademark sale. Now it is using its subsidiary to claim otherwise.

It appears to be an outright cheating case, so I think Apple should not give an inch of its ground to such behaviour.

Apple wont like it, but theirs are bigger than ours this time.

Bending over once in a while is necessary to keep your shop open and raking in money. If the settlement worth less than interim loss caused by iPad being pulled out during the court proceeding, I suggest do it.
post #31 of 81
Wow, if I ever am in legal trouble in China I know who to look up...

Are those big banks that Apple is dealing with suing Apple and blocking iPad sales in China? If so they've been awfully quiet, perhaps doing all this through bankrupt Proview which they now own. Which takes the fraud to even greater (or should I say lower) heights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

That's been my prediction for a while now.

The terms will be secret. Proview will make a bit of money, and it will not cost Apple any huge amount (compared to Apple's China profits).

One thing to keep in mind: Apple is not necessarily dealing with Proview anymore. IIRC, Proview is in bankruptcy, and is therefore controlled by its creditors. IIRC, Apple will be dealing with big banks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Right. It is never that easy.

If the court looks only at the documents, they will conclude that Proview Taiwan did not own the mark in China. They will conclude that Apple did not buy the mark in China from the owner, which was and is Proview Schenzen.

However, if they look beyond the documents, they will discover that Apple got bamboozled by Proview. It may have been all a huge mistake, or it could have been fraud.

If Chinese courts use the same equitable principles as we use here, they might conclude that "what should be done will be done" and order the TM registry to change the owner from Proview Schenzen to Apple.

These things are never cut and dried, because if they were, they would not be going to court. You need disagreements before these things go to court, and you need ambiguous situations.

Here, the question is whether misconduct and broken promises by Proview Taiwan should cause Proview Schenzen to give up a valuable trademark. Now that Proview is controlled by third-party creditors, the equities of the situation must take them into account.
post #32 of 81
Prediction. The bankrupt CEO of all bankrupt Proview companies involved just wants some personal money. The Proview creditors themselves won't see a penny.

I think the suit for defamation and fraud put Yang over the line, and the prior statements from China that injunctions would be hard to enforce (which can only be interpreted as "you ain't got no case, but here's face-saving line for you").
post #33 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

No. The contract of sale was entered into with the Taiwan subsidiary, who never owned the rights in China.

The documents are AGAINST Apple.

They have extraneous documents from which one could infer fraud or mistake. The extraneous documents may be enough to get Apple an equitable decision.

But the main document, the one that transfers ownership, is NOT in Apple's favor. It was never signed by the owner of the Chinese trademark.

I guess you never read the documents. Please review the Hong Kong court decision, for example. And then review the documents on AllThingsD.
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #34 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegalink View Post

The documents that are released show that Proview Taiwan claimed ownership rights to the trademark in mainland China, and listed it in the schedule of countries included in the trademark sale. Now it is using its subsidiary to claim otherwise.

It appears to be an outright cheating case, so I think Apple should not give an inch of its ground to such behaviour.

Proview Taiwan is NOT using its subsidiary to say otherwise. The owner of the mark is an affilliate, not a subsidiary.

It is like your brother selling me your car. He cannot effectively pass title, because he has no right to your car.

Apple claims that the father was involved, and made the decision for both sons. They have some emails that tend to support that. But the situation is far from clear.
post #35 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

Wow, if I ever am in legal trouble in China I know who to look up...


Normally I ignore these trolls, but this is getting tiresome. Personal attacks are not on topic here. Please either focus on the topic at hand or refrain from posting personal attacks.
post #36 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Proview Taiwan is NOT using its subsidiary to say otherwise. The owner of the mark is an affilliate, not a subsidiary.

It is like your brother selling me your car. He cannot effectively pass title, because he has no right to your car.

Apple claims that the father was involved, and made the decision for both sons. They have some emails that tend to support that. But the situation is far from clear.

There is no father and son, no affiliate, sister, mom, daughter, partner, associate, or roommate from college. It's all the same one guy that's in charge of all Proview companies.

It's a guy that owns a car that sells you the car, then says, oh, you bought it from my left hand, sorry, actually my right hand owns the car, so you paid for, I dunno, the fuzzy dice because that's all the left hand was authorised to sell.

And with that, time for bed.
post #37 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I guess you never read the documents. Please review the Hong Kong court decision, for example. And then review the documents on AllThingsD.

I read them all. The Hong Kong court did not decide the case on the merits. It merely said some issues were appropriate for trial, and preserved the status quo in the meantime.

Prove me wrong.
post #38 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Normally I ignore these trolls, but this is getting tiresome. Personal attacks are not on topic here. Please either focus on the topic at hand or refrain from posting personal attacks.

I don't think that can be considered a personal attack. A light hearted jibe, perhaps. Plus above you call me trolling, which I did not say about you. Goodnight...
post #39 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


But the main document, the one that transfers ownership, is NOT in Apple's favor. It was never signed by the owner of the Chinese trademark.

The main agreement was hammered out, but the lack of signing was a breach of the agreement. It was fraud on the part of Yang. Period. Such behavior in US courts would subject Yang to contempt, and order for specific performance.

Apple's mistake may have been assuming Yang would act in good faith, and Apple did not follow up prior to iPad release to ensure follow-through.

On the other hand, because Apple purchased the iPad name through a bogus company setup to hide Apple's involvement, it seems quite right that Apple now be forced to pay.

Fraudulent representations in the US has become pandemic also. Businesses and business folks simply have no morals, ever. There is nothing honest or moral about what Apple did to purchase the iPad name.
post #40 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

There is no father and son, no affiliate, sister, mom, daughter, partner, associate, or roommate from college. It's all the same one guy that's in charge of all Proview companies.



That "one guy" is not the sole owner of all the assets. Likely he never was.
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