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iPad & MacBooks combine to give Apple 27% share of all mobile PC shipments - Page 2

post #41 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I've never seen one. I have no idea.

It is a cheap laptop that boots up into, and only runs the Chrome browser. I would not call it a PC, but instead, at most, a thin client.
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post #42 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?

Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.

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post #43 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

I have to join the conversation whether or not and ipad is a "PC". As an owner of the Ipad 2, I say it is not a "PC". If you can add a mouse to the Ipad and M$ office with close to full functions. I will classify the Ipad more like a device for low to mid range computing. Being an engineering major, the ipad will do little of what i need it to do as far as programs. That said, it is great for when i don't need the engineering specific programs.
But until i can have a mouse ( cause it's not efficient in my mind to constantly be touching the screen) then i will see my Ipad as a step below a PC. Especially since some websites still use flash.

It doesn't matter what your personal uses are. That's irrelevant. What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify, and that it certainly does. By your lights, without a mouse, no device can ever be called a personal computer. If you can't see how odd that is, then I suppose you won't be convinced. But a mouse was considered to be a child's toy when Apple introduced it, so things chance. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.
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post #44 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?

I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?
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post #45 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.

Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.

On the issue of what software is available to run another interesting comparison can be made. The App Store is, in many ways, the modern online equivalent of the game cartridges you'd buy for your portable gaming device. The software is developed on a different platform using the device makers development kit, the maker of the device gets a cut of the sales of the program you create, for the most part you can only run one program at a time (which is now changing on iOS 5), and you don't have direct access to see the program resources or the file system.

Is the iPad simply another personal appliance that can run modular widgets (delivered via cartridges, discs, apps, etc)? That's a stretch, but something to consider when determining if an iPad is a PC.
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post #46 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.

That's a bit pedantic for you

My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.

PC ≠ personal computer
personal computer = iPad
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post #47 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yes it is a computer but so is the electronic fuel injection module on my car. My criteria for a personal computer is the ability to write a program on that computer that can be executed on the same machine and be saved to a user accessible file system.

Not to take anything away from the practicality of an iPad. It is a fantastic personal computing device but it is not a real PC in my opinion.

Also if an iPad can be a PC why not make the iPhone a PC. Does screen size have anything to do with being a PC or not?

No, there is a difference between a computer and an embedded cpu hard programmed for a single purpose. That's a computing device, but not a "computer" as we think of one.

A computer has the ability to be reprogrammed on the fly using an OS that also has the ability to recognize different programs, input and output devices, etc. We call what's in cars computers, but they are not what we're talking about, as I'm sure you must know.
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post #48 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't think not are trying to shoehorn Apple in a superior position. I think it's on consistenty and honesty. If we keep seeing the definition move to keep exclusing te iPad as iOS evolves is that being honest? I don't think so.

As for your definition it's certainly something that Windows and Mac OS have been able to do over the decades but I don't see why that is the definition of a "personal computer". To me being personal is squarely on the end user experience not how it can be used by programmers. I don't see minis being called personal because you can program on them.

There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.

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post #49 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

That's a bit pedantic for you

My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.

Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.

"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"

PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.

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post #50 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.

"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"

PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.

Ok, missed the 'could argue' bit .. sorry

I truly think most of the issue is the grouping PC and personal computer as one and the same thing, to those of us with a history in this business a PC is not the same as a personal computer. Thus to us, an iPad is a personal computer is a different argument from a an iPad is a PC. (Mad Hatters Tea Party comes to mind here LOL)

PC ≠ personal computer
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post #51 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

But in the beginning they did call them airships. Maybe that is what is happening with personal computing. Eventually the tweener form factor known as laptops will fade away leaving mobile devices and desktop PCs as two different categories.

I could see that happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify....

But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.

And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.
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post #52 of 111
2/23/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.

Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.

On the last point, no one ever seems to consider that every computer ever made is massively constrained compared to the set of all possible behaviors, and what people are calling "open" is in fact simply a very large walled garden that has become comfortable with familiarity. PCs can't run "any" software, they can't be setup "any" way you like and you can't supersede the many, many conventions that undergird the OS. If this illusory flexibility is a requirement for being a real PC, there are no real PCs.

People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.

Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.

Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.
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post #53 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.

Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
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post #54 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose View Post

People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.

Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.

Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.

I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.

I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...
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post #55 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.

A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.

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post #56 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Thus to us, an iPad is a personal computer is a different argument from a an iPad is a PC.

I think that is a harder argument to make. You need to show how "PC" no longer means personal computer in the original sense.

PS: Note that I will typically put "PC" in double quotes to denote the it as a categorization not simply an abbreviation for personal computer.

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post #57 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?

Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.
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post #58 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.

And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.

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post #59 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think that is a harder argument to make. You need to show how "PC" no longer means personal computer in the original sense.

PS: Note that I will typically put "PC" in double quotes to denote the it as a categorization not simply an abbreviation for personal computer.

It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.
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post #60 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.

Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs

I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...
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post #61 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.

As a share holder I hope that never happens ...
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post #62 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

As a share holder I hope that never happens ...

Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.

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post #63 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so they can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.

Yes, I guess that's true, I was half joking ... I think the fighting over one would probably actually spur sales
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post #64 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.

Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.

Honestly, just because a device can't run some arbitrarily defined "necessary" apps, doesn't remove it from being a computer.

A few years ago, Apple didn't allow the new version of Final Cut pro install on some of their older laptops. Did that mean those laptops were no longer personal computers? Of course not!

People have to get over this nonsense.
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post #65 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.

Time has a huge impact on word meanings. We won't be the ones that will decide what a PC is called in the future. That is up to younger generations.

BTW, Apple was one of the first to market their machine as a personal computer, it was because IBM called their product an IBM PC and soon after Apple had something revolutionary with the Mac they could market as not being a "PC" that the divide happened but we both know that if you consider Windows a PC OS you must also consider Mac OS as such.

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post #66 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:18pm
27% share of all mobile PC shipments

Is it 27% share of all mobile PC shipped or sold? <duck>
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post #67 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I could see that happening.



But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.

And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.

But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.

And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.

So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.
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post #68 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:24pm
Humans and pets are also personal computers if we really want to get pedantic.

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post #69 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.


Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.

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post #70 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.


The ipad is a mobile PC in the same way that the iphone and iPod touch are mobile PCs, therefore they should all be included in the count.

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post #71 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...

Fix the quote in that post. It was me that you quoted.


Quote:
I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...

Yes.
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post #72 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.

Define "true".

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post #73 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.


Then they should include iPhone and iPod Touch sales in those numbers but they don't do they? It would be one thing if the iPad ran OS X but it doesn't.

-kpluck
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post #74 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.

And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.

So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.

Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.

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post #75 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.

A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.
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post #76 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.

That's irrelevant.
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post #77 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs

I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...

The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device. They're still mad that Apple hasn't failed as they were predicting years ago when they were dissing Apple as being small and whose products were only being bought by fanatic fanboys, and today's Apple that's slowly making Microsoft obsolete.

Giving credit to an Apple product is more than painful to them, it's a betrayal of their closely held belief that MS is the world, and Apple is the loser.

Admitting that the iPad is a pc, is an admission that its sales are a validation of what we have been saying, and proof that what they have been saying is wrong.
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post #78 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.

Not impressed, and it's going to be pretty rare. I've used the Fire, and believe me, it's not great. More limitations than you would believe. It's limited to phone apps, and more than a few don't work at all, or look very odd. Certainly worth almost what they charge for it.
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post #79 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.

Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's irrelevant.

Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #80 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device.

I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.

Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.

It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.

"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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