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iPad & MacBooks combine to give Apple 27% share of all mobile PC shipments - Page 3

post #81 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.

You're missing the point. You use words such as primary, but that's meaningless. Would they use a netbook? Of course not! But that doesn't matter. My CAD app works very well, and I use it to design parts. It's great! I can work on them wherever I am. Too clumsy on a notebook.

Verto Studio, look it up if you have any understanding of CAD.

Even many notebooks aren't going to allow a major use of CAD, but that doesn't mean they aren't computers.
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post #82 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:51pm
if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.

as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple
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post #83 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.

It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.
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post #84 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.

as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple

And as usual, you are a troll.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #85 of 111
2/23/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.

I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.

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post #86 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.

You're really stretching, and you know it.

Quote:
Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.

If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.

It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.

Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.

It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.
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post #87 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.

Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.

It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.

I'm seeing some of that here too, unfortunately.
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post #88 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're really stretching, and you know it.

His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."

There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.

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post #89 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.

as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple

I'm assuming you're a troll.
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post #90 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're really stretching, and you know it.



If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.

It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.

Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.

It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.

Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.

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post #91 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.

No, pc is just a couple of letters. Personal computer is the term that people would talk about that has some meaning, as I do understand that most people who take part in forums are too young to understand the true meaning of pc. And most people who I talk to do consider the iPad to be a personal computer, and that number is now making it to the companies who look at sales. It took almost two years, but they are coming over, and that signifies a shift in thinking, even though a few people are lost in the caves.
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post #92 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And as usual, you are a troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm assuming you're a troll.

If the mods are going to note a user is a troll it seems odd that they aren't getting rid of the troll.

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post #93 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, pc is just a couple of letters. Personal computer is the term that people would talk about that has some meaning

Yes just a couple of letters - also the same letters found in the title of this article.

For clarification: PC = personal computer with respect to the sales report mentioned in the article.

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post #94 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."

There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.

His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.

So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.

It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
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post #95 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If the mods are going to note a user is a troll it seems odd that they aren't getting rid of the troll.

He hasn't insulted anyone yet.
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post #96 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.

I do understand you position. I just don't agree with it. What I don't understand is your exact definition of personal computer, and why you're so tied up to it.
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post #97 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.

So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.

It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.

Everything man makes was at once point specialized. Even the common car was called a motorized carriage at one point. It actually has its origins in taking a carriage that was pulled by horses and putting a motor on it.

As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.

I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.

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post #98 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yes just a couple of letters - also the same letters found in the title of this article.

For clarification: PC = personal computer with respect to the sales report mentioned in the article.

I sorta know what it means. It's an abbreviation of personal computer, we all know that. The hang up is from what Digitalclips has said, that many people just think that PC stands for a Wintel box of some kind. That's why I said its just a couple of letters. The real argument isn't over those two letters, it's over the words "personal computer", which is what those letters stand for.

Most people don't seem to know that PC, as in Windows machine is pretty much gone. Once IBM sold their business to lenovo, the real name IBM Pc, went away. There really was never an official definition for PC meaning Windows box.

Anyway, it's not the PC were really talking about its the better understood words of personal computer. No one can realistically argue it means Windows computer.
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post #99 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.

I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.

But that's exactly what he's doing. He's looking at the iPad as it is now, and myopically putting a restricted definition onto it. I'm arguing for the opposite.
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post #100 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.

So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.

It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.

I guess the main difference in our ideas of what is and is not a personal computer is that I don't like the idea of having a device that can be in more than one category especially when people misuse that in making an argument. They just switch the category as it suits their mood at any given point in time. For the motorcycle example: The DMV is going to put the three-wheeled vehicle in one category or the other depending on their definition which may be arbitrary but the one thing they won't do it put a car license plate on the front and a motorcycle license plate on the back.

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post #101 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

If you want to call an iPad a PC, that suits me fine but it will be mostly confusing to everyone else. Talk about 1%, the only people who want to call an iPad a PC are the ones who want Apple to sell more PCs than every other manufacturer. Since they already sell the most tablets there is no reason mention it. Yeah, let's say they sell the most tablets AND the most PCs so we just count the iPad twice. No problem. You know what they say about statistics...

It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.
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post #102 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:48pm
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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.

If it doesn't have a PS/2 port it''s not a PC.

All joking aside, the iPad's existence does seem to have made the Apple haters at least consider the Mac a "PC".

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post #103 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.

Well if that happens then the iPad will be a PC.
Actually an iPad can be a PC by my definition if you jailbreak it. Then you would have a bash shell where you could write a program and execute it.

If a PC has a fried motherboard it ceases to be a PC and becomes a boat anchor.

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post #104 of 111
2/23/12 at 1:53pm
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Well if that happens then the iPad will be a PC. If a PC has a fried motherboard it ceases to be a PC and becomes a boat anchor.

Define boat? j/k

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post #105 of 111
2/23/12 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Define boat? j/k


A hole in the water into which you pour money.
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post #106 of 111
2/23/12 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.

as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple

Ridiculous. I have many Macs and also iDevices. I do work on both of them, depending upon what I am looking to do.

I bet that you do not do any serious work at all on any machine. And I bet that I would be more productive with a tiny iPod Touch than you would be if you were given IBM's Watson to use.

And it's not spelt MAC! Only trolls, fandroids and people who are completely ignorant of Apple capitalize every letter in the word MAC!
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post #107 of 111
2/23/12 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I guess the main difference in our ideas of what is and is not a personal computer is that I don't like the idea of having a device that can be in more than one category especially when people misuse that in making an argument. They just switch the category as it suits their mood at any given point in time. For the motorcycle example: The DMV is going to put the three-wheeled vehicle in one category or the other depending on their definition which may be arbitrary but the one thing they won't do it put a car license plate on the front and a motorcycle license plate on the back.

Well, yes. But the motorcycle won't be given a car license because it isn't a car. It is a motor vehicle though, and that's why you go to the motor vehicle bureau for the license.

And the iPad isn't a laptop, so we don't call it that. We call it a tablet, but it is a personal computer.

I think you're just stuck on the old forms.
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post #108 of 111
2/23/12 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.

Yeah, it's not about double counting or something like that. It's just a matter of wondering; just what is this thing?

If we want to count, we can say that Apple sold, say, 60 million computers this year. 6 million desktops, 14 million laptops, and 40 million tablets. Easy peasy.
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post #109 of 111
2/23/12 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I think you're just stuck on the old forms.

Yep I'm old school. I don't mind using an iPad for casual stuff like now as I type this on my iPad but when I want to do actual computing I can't stand the computer getting in my way and intentionally preventing me from doing what I want to do. I am sort of stuck, as you say, on that old fashion notion that I should be able to create and save a text file with a file extension and directory location of my choosing. That is what I expect from a PC. From a mobile device I am much less demanding.

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post #110 of 111
2/23/12 at 7:46pm
I remember a time when everyone declared the iPad a flop and unnecessary.

I recommend reading 'Only The Paranoid Survive'. In retrospect the iPad can be easily seen as 10X change.

iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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post #111 of 111
2/25/12 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yep I'm old school. I don't mind using an iPad for casual stuff like now as I type this on my iPad but when I want to do actual computing I can't stand the computer getting in my way and intentionally preventing me from doing what I want to do. I am sort of stuck, as you say, on that old fashion notion that I should be able to create and save a text file with a file extension and directory location of my choosing. That is what I expect from a PC. From a mobile device I am much less demanding.

Well, you know, there are a number of differing types of computers. We have mainframes, mini computers, workstations, servers, and personal computers of various favors and capabilities.

Pick your poison.
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