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Apple's latest legal victory over Motorola in Germany declared 'huge'

post #1 of 65
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Apple's latest courtroom win over Motorola Mobility in a German patent infringement suit is so significant, it has led one expert to now question whether Google's $12.5 billion purchase of Motorola was worth it.

The Karlsruhe Higher Regional Court ruled on Monday that Motorola Mobility cannot further enforce its standard-essential patent injunction against Apple in Germany during its appeal. That indicates that Apple is "highly likely" to succeed, which was declared a "huge" win for the iPhone maker by intellectual property expert Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents.

"The appeals court summarily held that Apple has made an amended proposal for taking a license to MMI's patents on FRAND terms that should be acceptable to MMI, turning any further attempts to ban Apple's iPhone and iPad products into a violation of applicable antitrust law," Mueller wrote.

In fact, Apple's win on Monday was considered so significant by Mueller that he said it raises the question of whether Google's purchase of Motorola Mobility for $12.5 billion last August has "failed before the deal is even formally closed." Experts have largely viewed Google's acquisition of Motorola as a deal driven by patent acquisitions to bolster its strength in a lawsuit-laden smartphone industry.

The decision comes less than a week after Microsoft joined the fray and filed an antitrust suit against Motorola Mobility in the European Union, accusing it of abusing its standard-essential patents. Both Microsoft and Apple believe Motorola has been illegally attempting to block sales of their products by leveraging patents that are obligated to be offered with fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing.

Motorola has sought in court to obtain 2.25 percent of Apple's sales of wireless devices, including the iPhone, in exchange for a patent license. Apple has argued that Motorola's royalty sought for a standard-essential patent is unfair, unreasonable and discriminatory.

While Monday's decision is a major win for Apple on the FRAND patent front, it is in no way related to the injunction Motorola obtained against Apple in Germany earlier this month related to push services. That has forced Apple to disable some of the functionality of its iCloud service in Germany.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 65
Will be interesting to see their next move.
post #3 of 65
I'd be really pissed to not have iCloud. I find it indispensable.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #4 of 65
This is significant! -- And it seems only fair.

I'm definitely intrigued by what may come of the push services contention.
post #5 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I'd be really pissed to not have iCloud. I find it indispensable.

Couldn't agree more!
post #6 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo1234 View Post

Will be interesting to see their next move.

You know their next move - same as all the past moves. Lots of FUD, more lawsuits all over the world, and continued portrayal of the "We're open, so we must be better" meme. Maybe even start a petition......
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #7 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I'd be really pissed to not have iCloud. I find it indispensable.

You do know that iCloud isn't completely shut down in Germany right? As far as I've read it's just the push email. Your iStream photos and app purchases will still sync across devices. I might be wrong but I think calendar and contacts will also still sync.
post #8 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo1234 View Post

Will be interesting to see their next move.

they should just take the license payments and be happy. concentrate on making motorola phones the 'standard' android phone and get rid of that added motowiz or pisswiz or whatever crap is in addition to Android.
post #9 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

You do know that iCloud isn't completely shut down in Germany right? As far as I've read it's just the push email. Your iStream photos and app purchases will still sync across devices. I might be wrong but I think calendar and contacts will also still sync.

So would that only be relevant if you use iCloud/MobileMe email? Not a web mail or exchange service? As in not many people
you only have freedom in choice when you know you have no choice
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you only have freedom in choice when you know you have no choice
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post #10 of 65
Maybe the standards bodies should require the IP holders to specify the terms they will offer to everyone if their technology is included in the standard. Seems like a lot of companies are trying to take advantage of the current system.
post #11 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I'd be really pissed to not have iCloud. I find it indispensable.

Uh....
They still have iCloud, they just have to change the settings on mail to fetch instead of push, and this only effects mail and only on mobile devices.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #12 of 65
Let me clarify the confusion on Push Email.

iCloud email is still on. The only thing that was shut down was push notification. That means your iPhones are not "always" connected to the mail servers and notify you instantly. But you can have the same functionality by using Fetch method. Rather than the mail server pushing the email notification to you, your handset will periodically check the email server to see if there is any new email. You can set the interval when the handset will retrieve emails - it can be 5 mins, 15 mins, 30 mins etc.

To me checking emails in every 15 mins is a much better option as it will not drain your handset battery.
post #13 of 65
Just as Google was celebrating a significant watering down of the Oracle lawsuit, they are faced with this monster whammy in Germany! From here on, the whole point of the Motorola's acquisition will be gone.

I still hope Oracle can recoup and hit back with further patents, and really stick it into Google. What Google has done with Java is so blatant, it will be extremely unfair if they can walk away from this scot-free.

It will be interesting to see what Apple agreed to, to reach this stage with Motorola. I sure hope that they did not agree to the 2.25% asked for. But seriously brings to question what Google would do now.
post #14 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

You do know that iCloud isn't completely shut down in Germany right? As far as I've read it's just the push email. Your iStream photos and app purchases will still sync across devices. I might be wrong but I think calendar and contacts will also still sync.

Ah that's great.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #15 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post

Uh....
They still have iCloud, they just have to change the settings on mail to fetch instead of push, and this only effects mail and only on mobile devices.

Stupid court case. Feck Moto.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #16 of 65
I love how the Android copyists can't even come up with an original name:
http://www.reghardware.com/2012/02/2...id_collection/
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #17 of 65
I don't think this acquisition was ever about patents (although the high price might have been due to Motorola threatening a patent war). Google wants to be in the hardware business. I'd imagine they're also worried about Samsung's dominance of Android. The idea that they could run Motorola as a separate company with no conflict of interest was always absurd. It's astonishing how credulous the tech media is when in comes to Google (and only Google). If Microsoft had acquired HP or Dell in the 90s and announced that they were going to continue to run the company separately but it (somehow) wasn't anything their partners should worry about, would anyone have believed it?
post #18 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I love how the Android copyists can't even come up with an original name:
http://www.reghardware.com/2012/02/2...id_collection/

They're dead. ViewSonic is dead. That's all there is to this.

It's the same as if someone tried to sell Corka-Corla.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #19 of 65
Viewsonic Viewphone 4s.

How pathetic is that?

These Android losers have no shame at all, not to mention zero originality and zero talent.

I threw a perfectly good, working Viewsonic CRT monitor in the trash about a month ago.

Screw Viewsonic. These Android losers don't even try to make an effort.

As for Motorola and Google, well fuck them too!
post #20 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

Maybe the standards bodies should require the IP holders to specify the terms they will offer to everyone if their technology is included in the standard. Seems like a lot of companies are trying to take advantage of the current system.

Not necessarily a lot of companies - apparently just Motorola and Samsung. That's a good idea, though, for the standards bodies to spell out general terms for the licenses. I also hope the standards people would reject technology from Samsung and Motorola in the future, after seeing the abusive behaviour of those companies.
post #21 of 65
[insult removed]
post #22 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

Maybe the standards bodies should require the IP holders to specify the terms they will offer to everyone if their technology is included in the standard.

The terms offered to different companies are different, because, among other factors, the buyers have vastly different credit ratings.

There is no requirement under FRAND that the deals have to be identical for each buyer.
post #23 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The terms offered to different companies are different, because, among other factors, the buyers have vastly different credit ratings.

There is no requirement under FRAND that the deals have to be identical for each buyer.

What part of 'non-discriminatory' do you not understand?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #24 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What part of 'non-discriminatory' do you not understand?

The part where "non-discriminatory" means "identical".

From Wikipedia:

Non-discriminatory relates to both the terms and the rates included in licensing agreements. As the name suggests this commitment requires that licensors treat each individual licensee in a similar manner. This does not mean that the rates and payment terms can’t change dependent on the volume and creditworthiness of the licensee.


You may want to learn the basics before offering further challenges. Pick you battles. I make mistakes, and you can exploit them if you wish. Your goal is to correct the errors, and not to mis-correct the valid points.
post #25 of 65
I have found Googles strategy completely illogical. What do they have to gain from Android? They are an advertising company, do they actually think that all Android users use their search engine?
They seem to be intent on pissing the rest of the tech world off and are not making a cent into the bargin. In fact his adventure is costing more every day both in money and goodwill from users.
post #26 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

not me! i am not stupid enough to buy viewsonic in the first place.

It was actually a very decent monitor, one of their premium models used for graphics design. It was a CRT, but flat screen design with very accurate colors. I never had a problem with it since I first bought it around 10 years ago.

It was just too big, too bulky, too heavy and who needs CRT anymore, so I trashed it. And besides, I have plenty of LCDs ready to take it's place.
post #27 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by stniuk View Post

I have found Googles strategy completely illogical.

Their strategy seems to be flooding the world with cheap and free Android phones. So, even if they give out 50 million free Android phones to a bunch of financially challenged people, then so what? It's a terrible strategy.

The kind of person that is attracted to such phones doesn't mind ads in their apps, and they are less willing to actually spend money on any apps. The typical Android user is already screwed by the time that they get home with their phone. Almost no Android phones even run the latest OS! Even many new Android phones being released today do not have the latest OS installed. Android is a nightmare, an inferior OS made for people without much technical insight or knowledge.
post #28 of 65
Apple are fully entitled to a licence for FRAND patents. These patents are now seen to be worthless in terms of forcing Apple to cross licence their IP. Moto's strategy has failed. All they're going to get are whatever crumbs Apple is prepared to let them have. Sad really.
post #29 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbourable View Post

All they're going to get are whatever crumbs Apple is prepared to let them have.

None, hopefully.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #30 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

None, hopefully.

If what you're saying is that Standards patents should be royalty free, I agree. After all, if such patents were not part of the Standard, they'd be worthless anyway.
post #31 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I'd be really pissed to not have iCloud. I find it indispensable.

Not having gallery is more annoying for me so I'm staying with MobileMe until iLife 2012 is released.

Then if there's no iCloud gallery replacement by july I'll move to smugmug.
post #32 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Android is a nightmare, an inferior OS made for people without much technical insight or knowledge.

What happened to the Android is for Geeks stuff? I guess that the goalpost got moved once it was realized that the majority of typical smartphone buyers choose Android.
post #33 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The part where "non-discriminatory" means "identical".

This does not mean that the rates and payment terms cant change dependent on the volume and creditworthiness of the licensee.

Let's face facts here... at this point, Moto are going out of business. They have tried to parasitise Apple by demanding a 2.5% chunk of Apples revenue in order to keep their ship afloat. We now see that this isn't going to work.

They have no answer to the iPhone, let alone the iPad, and trying to address this deficiency is what they should be doing in order to save themselves, not trying to hamstring their competetors.
post #34 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbourable View Post

If what you're saying is that Standards patents should be royalty free, I agree.

If they were free, why would companies spend money developing them?
post #35 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

What happened to the Android is for Geeks stuff? I guess that the goalpost got moved once it was realized that the majority of typical smartphone buyers choose Android.

Are you talking about all that rooting stuff and other nonsense? That is just a tiny minority of them. The majority of Android users are not buying the higher priced phones.

I was reading a forum a few days ago and some Android users were talking amongst themselves.

This one guy had just bought some new Android phone and was unhappy with it and he was wondering about a few things.

The typical answer was like this: No problem dude, just do like I did, put this custom ROM, ver. 20a.17 revision 14 on it, and everything will rock!

post #36 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The part where "non-discriminatory" means "identical".

. This does not mean that the rates and payment terms cant change dependent on the volume and creditworthiness of the licensee.

.

So Zither,

Now you think Apple isn't creditworthy so they should be charged more?

And volume in this context normally means you pay less, the greater the volume. iOS has amongst the highest volumes, so according to your inverse logic Apple should pay more?

As Microsoft pointed out in their EU complaint, Motorola's attempt to charge 2.25% of the price of the entire product is outrageous and absurd and an anti-trust abuse of FRAND. They pointed out that there are hundreds of essential patents involved in wireless standards and if everyone charged 2.25% of the product price, a mobile phone would costs many times what it does now!

Apple obviously have not offered Motorola 2.25% of the price of each iPhone, but the court has sided with Apple, saying that it highly likely to find that Apple's offer is fair and reasonable under FRAND.

But of course you know better don't you Zither.
post #37 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

If they were free, why would companies spend money developing them?

That begs the question as to whether standards should be developed by an industry-wide body, rather than by individual companies.
post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by stniuk View Post

I have found Googles strategy completely illogical. What do they have to gain from Android? They are an advertising company, do they actually think that all Android users use their search engine?
They seem to be intent on pissing the rest of the tech world off and are not making a cent into the bargin. In fact his adventure is costing more every day both in money and goodwill from users.

Quite right! Well said.

Google's strategy is falling apart and is going to cost their shareholder's a fortune.
post #39 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Are you talking about all that rooting stuff and other nonsense? That is just a tiny minority of them. The majority of Android users are not buying the higher priced phones.

I was reading a forum a few days ago and some Android users were talking amongst themselves.

This one guy had just bought some new Android phone and was unhappy with it and he was wondering about a few things.

The typical answer was like this: No problem dude, just do like I did, put this custom ROM, ver. 20a.17 revision 14 on it, and everything will rock!


Ok, wait a minute? Your posts are contradicting here. And I think your underlying premise is a bit flawed anyhow. Android phones are like the windows PC's put out by the major manufacturers. They are good enough to keep people buying but are not without the major flaws that prevent them from being truly polished equipment. There are good android phones as far as specifications but the equipment still runs Android.

The issue is not that the users are too geeky or not intelligent. There will always be those that hack their phones, no matter what the platform. I was reading this internet forum the other day and this guy was upset that his iPhone did not allow him to do a certain function, and the replies were all typically: No problem dude, just run this jailbreak solution, connect to cydia and download this program to root your system and make this change to your phones software.

I don't care for android much, but it is just a phone OS not an indication of intelligence.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #40 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post

So Zither,

Now you think Apple isn't creditworthy so they should be charged more?

Of course not. And there is no reason to think I said anything like that. This "defend a statement you never made" stuff is annoying.
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