or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Apple introduces Developer ID ahead of Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple introduces Developer ID ahead of Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper - Page 3

post #81 of 99
My question in this would be if the certificate can only be used in Xcode products how would that affect major software developers who do not use Xcode for their projects.... I don't speak from authority but I doubt that they develop in X-code for programs. If that is indeed the case, how are they going to apply such a certificate even if they wanted to but cannot use X-Code?
post #82 of 99
I think some people are missing the point about freeware. Today, its not a big deal.. your right... but tomorrow?

When the MAS gets so big and so common that 95% of all Mac users will never get anything, or even LOOK for anything other than in the MAS... that will kill off freeware developers. Why keep making a freeware app, if you've lost 70%+ of your user base, or if its a new app, you just cannot get people to use it because its not in the MAS. While some people don't want a walled garden, Apple is trying to convince users to live there themselves, and I have a bad feeling the vast majority of Mac users will do this voluntarily, and eventually if your not in the MAS, you better be a huge company like Microsoft or Adobe... or your dead. Apple doesn't want to force this on people when they can do it slowly and insidiously and convince all their users to impose it on themselves. Then the users aren't mad when they felt like it was their choice in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

My question in this would be if the certificate can only be used in Xcode products how would that affect major software developers who do not use Xcode for their projects.... I don't speak from authority but I doubt that they develop in X-code for programs. If that is indeed the case, how are they going to apply such a certificate even if they wanted to but cannot use X-Code?

hear they have some type of code signing tool outside of Xcode... but I haven't used it. That may work. As far as Mac App Store people, they have to use Xcode for the most part anyways since the rules of the MAS are so specific... its not like they are allowed to use Java or some other language anyways...
post #83 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

My question in this would be if the certificate can only be used in Xcode products how would that affect major software developers who do not use Xcode for their projects….

Such as whom? Could have sworn you had to use Xcode to make OS X applications.

Quote:
I don't speak from authority but I doubt that they develop in X-code for programs.

They who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

When the MAS gets so big and so common that 95% of all Mac users will never get anything, or even LOOK for anything other than in the MAS… that will kill off freeware developers.

No. It. Will. Not.

Quote:
…eventually if your not in the MAS, you better be a huge company like Microsoft or Adobe… or your dead.

Don't worry. Adobe will never actually develop Mac applications, so they'll never be in the Mac App Store.

Quote:
Apple doesn't want to force this on people when they can do it slowly and insidiously and convince all their users to impose it on themselves.

DOOM! WALLED GARDEN! 1984! HYPOCRISY! BIG BROTHER! APPLE IS EVIL!

Stop the FUD.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #84 of 99
Is there confirmation either way whether the $99 account is required for dev ID or if it's free? If there isn't a link somewhere saying explicitly either way, I'd say it's still not known for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

There is nothing "FUD" about pointing out how Gatekeeper specifically tells end-users to delete non-signed apps.

I don't know where someone found that message about deleting apps, but the actual message in the 10.8 beta is different, more like the warning message opening an app downloaded from the internet for the first time. Also, the default on the first beta is to allow everything, although I expect the release version to default to the mid setting. Even with the middle setting, you just need to right click apps to run them.

It also looks like with upgrade OSX installs, the OS knows what apps you've already run and doesn't give a warning on those. It's only an issue with apps run for the first time after 10.8 is installed.

Really it seems to just come down to the $99, and that shouldn't be an issue for the vast majority of devs. If an app is worthwhile I'd bet they could easily get more than that in donations. And it's not like most ways of distributing an app outside the MAS are going to be free anyway. And any decent dev is going to want to be up to date so they're probably already paying the $99 even if it's just to get OSX betas.

Lots of FUD on this particular topic, people assuming the worst and some concern trolling. Try out the feature when it ships, it really does work well and isn't particularly intrusive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Because have you seen the screenshots of what happens when a Mountain Lion user launches an unsigned app? The dialog box specifically says "You should delete this application."

That's false, I'm not sure where that screenshot came from but it's not the case in the beta. Maybe the version given to the press before the announcement was slightly different?
post #85 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Such as whom? Could have sworn you had to use Xcode to make OS X applications.?

There are other development tools beyond Xcode that I have heard about - the name escapes me. Again, I am not a developer, but I can't imagine their not being other tools out there.
post #86 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

hear they have some type of code signing tool outside of Xcode... but I haven't used it. That may work. As far as Mac App Store people, they have to use Xcode for the most part anyways since the rules of the MAS are so specific... its not like they are allowed to use Java or some other language anyways...

I wasn't talking about MAS since - I think they will have to get signed. Good to know though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Such as whom? Could have sworn you had to use Xcode to make OS X applications.


They who?

I was thinking about a big company like Adobe - however I admitted that I don't know how they develop their apps so it might be moot.
post #87 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

I was thinking about a big company like Adobe - however I admitted that I don't know how they develop their apps so it might be moot.

Ah, yes, of course. Yeah, they'll NEVER actually write Mac applications, so they'll never be in the Store. Never mind that they're whiny morons and wouldn't do it anyway because of the cut Apple will get of their overpriced crap.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #88 of 99
What's the acronym for the opposite of FUD?
post #89 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Ah, yes, of course. Yeah, they'll NEVER actually write Mac applications, so they'll never be in the Store. Never mind that they're whiny morons and wouldn't do it anyway because of the cut Apple will get of their overpriced crap.

What? I was never suggesting that Adobe would ever want to use the MAS. None of my questions even applied to the store. I was always talking about third party development outside of the store. I was merely pondering on how programs that were not developed in Xcode and made by companies like adobe (working from the assumption that might be flawed that they don't use Xcode) would get the third party certificate if it required development with Xcode.

Adobe is not going MAS and they are going to stick with the third party approach. It's to their advantage to get a third party certificate (they already have to be a paid developer - it would be silly to think that they aren't). Given that about half their business is selling to Apple they aren't going to stop any time soon. However what is Adobe going to do if they cannot technically sign their apps? You can replace Adobe with another company not using Xcode if you want.
post #90 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMach View Post

What's the acronym for the opposite of FUD?

Courage, Sureness, and Belief, so CSB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

I was merely pondering on how programs that were not developed in Xcode and made by companies like adobe (working from the assumption that might be flawed that they don't use Xcode) would get the third party certificate if it required development with Xcode.

No, I know that; I'm just saying. And yeah, they likely wouldn't get one, then.

Quote:
Adobe is not going MAS and they are going to stick with the third party approach. It's to their advantage to get a third party certificate (they already have to be a paid developer - it would be silly to think that they aren't).

Then they'll FINALLY be forced to rewrite their applications in Xcode. And who knows, maybe they'll actually take advantage of what the Mac can do instead of making trash ports of Windows applications.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #91 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

There are other development tools beyond Xcode that I have heard about - the name escapes me. Again, I am not a developer, but I can't imagine their not being other tools out there.

You can certainly make an application that will run in OS X with other development tools besides Xcode.

MonoMac
Gtk#
Windows.Forms
MonObjc
CocoaSharp

There are others, of course. Xcode has many advantages, though.
post #92 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, I know that; I'm just saying. And yeah, they likely wouldn't get one, then.

Hopefully Apple has a way of doing that or Adobe can work around it somehow. There has to be a way - but I don't know what that would be. I'm not a paid developer and I don't have access to the documentation. My free account doesn't get me anywhere.

Quote:
Then they'll FINALLY be forced to rewrite their applications in Xcode. And who knows, maybe they'll actually take advantage of what the Mac can do instead of making trash ports of Windows applications.

We can only hope, but I am not holding my breath.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMach View Post

You can certainly make an application that will run in OS X with other development tools besides Xcode.

MonoMac
Gtk#
Windows.Forms
MonObjc
CocoaSharp

There are others, of course. Xcode has many advantages, though.

Thanks, my google fu was failing me...
post #93 of 99
My problem with moving to a fully trusted application environment has to do with the certificates. I expect certificates to be forged, faked, corrupt or expired. If the ("average") user places all their trust in 'the Mac knows if it's good'...that could be (dare I say?) a "slippery slope."

I don't really have a problem with the $99 fee. Whatever. If one develops applications and wants to give it away, fine. $99/year won't stop them.
post #94 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Nothing is requiring developers to use the Mac App Store. They can distribute freely just as they always have before the Mac App Store existed. This is not difficult stuff to understand unless you are trolling or backpedaling from your original statement. This developer you cherish so much is the one that chose to use the Mac App Store and choose to charge 99¢ for their app. This was not forced on them no matter what you want to believe.

Speak up!
post #95 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

No you don't. The certificate programis free. The $99 fee is to distribute through Apple, which isn't required. What part of free do you not understand?

No, you cannot get a signing certificate for free. Try it and see for yourself. I did. I had a free Apple developer account, tried to get a signing certificate using the instructions given by Apple, and was unable to without paying the $99 fee. What part of actually going through the process of trying and seeing for yourself do you not understand?

It's unbelievable how self-righteous people who don't truly have a working knowledge of things can be...
 
Reply
 
Reply
post #96 of 99
I don't want this feature, didn't ask for it, and just pray that there be a way to delete or deactivate it from the system? I have never had a problem from malware or a virus on any of systems that I own. I always fork out a little extra when buying a router, virus protection and firewall in a hardware solution, there is no substitution. I don't want Apple to know what applications I am using or what I am using them for. This is something Microsoft's does and is a big reason why I have used OSX for as long as I have.

I just know there is going to be an increase in those damn notifications. You are installing an unsigned application, you are running an unsigned application, this unsigned application is still installed we warned you, DELETE.

I forsee OSX becoming as locked up as iOS in the very near future. 10.8 is defiantly pointing to that direction.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
Reply
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
Reply
post #97 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I don't want this feature, didn't ask for it, and just pray that there be a way to delete or deactivate it from the system?

It's called turn it off.

Quote:
I have never had a problem from malware or a virus on any of systems that I own.

Well, yeah, you have a Mac.

Quote:
I always fork out a little extra when buying a router, virus protection and firewall in a hardware solution, there is no substitution.

And that's unnecessary.

Quote:
I don't want Apple to know what applications I am using or what I am using them for.

They don't

Quote:
This is something Microsoft's does and is a big reason why I have used OSX for as long as I have.

What the frick do they care about what applications you use?

Quote:
this unsigned application is still installed we warned you, DELETE.

Nowhere do any of the windows actively tell you to delete it.

Quote:
I foresee OSX becoming as locked up as iOS in the very near future.

I foresee all these FUD slingers and fearmongers being proven wrong.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #98 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

When the MAS gets so big and so common that 95% of all Mac users will never get anything, or even LOOK for anything other than in the MAS...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No. It. Will. Not.

Yes. It. Will.

See, I can sound just as authoritative as you can! The difference is, I'm right.

Whether or not we all think this is a good thing can be debated; I have mixed feelings on some of it myself. However, what doh is saying with this one particular point is clearly true. Whether it will kill freeware devs is also debatable, but eventually the MAS will dominate the landscape and the vast majority of people will not bother to look elsewhere. One doesn't need to be a genius to understand this (it's common sense psychology, mostly), although I guess having decades of experience in the tech world helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Don't worry. Adobe will never actually develop Mac applications, so they'll never be in the Mac App Store.

50/50 with you on this one. They DO (and will almost certainly continue to) create developer/designer apps for Mac users, and likely new ones as Flash slowly disappears. However, I doubt they'll put them in the MAS because they have the clout and visibility to distribute their own apps without having to pay Apple a percentage of sales. Simply a business decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

...I don't want Apple to know what applications I am using or what I am using them for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They don't

I delete the rest of relic's post because I don't want to argue those points, but Apple most certainly DOES know what you've downloaded from the MAS and what's installed on your machine. And unless you've used bogus personal information to create your account and take active measures to block outgoing network traffic, they know exactly who you are, where you are, what machine(s) you own (down to the serial#), and now what you've installed on your machine. I agree with relic that it's none of their business, and I have no plans to use the MAS in the near future simply for that reason alone. Eventually, however, given the direction things are headed, it will likely be impossible to avoid, and that's unfortunate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

This is something Microsoft's does and is a big reason why I have used OSX for as long as I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They don't What the frick do they care about what applications you use?

Valid question, you should ask them!

For several years now, Microsoft has added F#@$!g activation to not only their operating system, but many of their applications as well, including Office for Mac. I was perfectly happy for many years to pay for their software, but I will never use any software that requires activation or otherwise plays games allowing other companies to tie me personally and my specific computers to use of their software. It's bullshit. There are ways around it, of course, but it's a pain, and discourages me from paying for what I feel is useful software. Obviously many people don't care (or don't care enough), and that is their right, but it eventually directly affects those of us that do, because it gets harder and harder to purchase things like software.
No Matte == No Sale :-(
Reply
No Matte == No Sale :-(
Reply
post #99 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

I delete the rest of relic's post because I don't want to argue those points, but Apple most certainly DOES know what you've downloaded from the MAS and what's installed on your machine.

Oh, yes, obviously they know what came from the Mac App Store. They don't know what else is there.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Apple introduces Developer ID ahead of Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper