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Apple highlights creation of 514,000 jobs in America - Page 3

post #81 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Whats your point since most of the products you mention aren't made in the USA to start with? Saving trees is a bad thing?

Some are made here. Some were designed here. Many were marketed and sold and shipped here. How many stores like, say, Franklin-Covery, have closed? How many employees?

Besides, that's just a few of them. I've got a list I made of hundreds of the silly things.

Smart phones and tablets (iPhone and iPad) have clearcut a huge segment of the consumer electronics and other industries...
post #82 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Apple doesn't exist and we all just develop for Windows instead.

You're really adding to this thread.
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post #83 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival View Post

econd, still don't agree with you. Apple is successful and therefore evil? You said so yourself that stores were on the decline. Apple filled a void.

Did they? Or did those industries decline BECAUSE of the existence of Apple, the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad?

Look at P&S camera sales, which have fallen off a cliff just in the last three years. Now, what happened four years ago???
post #84 of 165
Very few Americans would want those repetitive and boring manufacturing jobs Apple shipped to China..
post #85 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

What free market? What competition? Whenever there's a worthy competitor it gets bought. We used to have Exxon and Mobil competing and what do we have now? ExxonMobil and gas prices through the roof. The problem with capitalism is that the vast majority of us aren't capitalists we're consumers. ATT was broken up because it was a monopoly and its slowly gone back to where it was.

So we have ExxonMobile? We also have BP, Citgo, Shell, and others. Plus many of those actually buy oil from smaller suppliers.

Oil is a bad example. AT&T is somewhat fair but the merger of AT&T and T-mobile was stopped, so I think it is also a bad example.

Besides, I think pointing to Apple as some sort of mega-corporation showing how capitalism does not work is misguided. If I came on this forum 7 years ago and said, "Apple is so big and no one can stop them because no one can compete!", you guys would have laughed me out of this forum. But in 5 years Apple has gone from a niche market to a the number one PC seller in the US.

It could happen again. I actually think it will happen again. Apple will get complacent and someone will surpass them at some point. Mark my words.
post #86 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival View Post

First you assume I dislike profitable companies. I love companies that make money and funnel money to Wall Street. Usually they keep me employed directly or indirectly.

Second, Apple is different for Microsoft because of the way they are perceived. Google is the company many people hate but still use daily. Apple is a company that if people hate them, they avoid their products.

So, Google is the new Microsoft. You dislike them but stick with them because the alternatives are not attractive.


Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
post #87 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

Did they? Or did those industries decline BECAUSE of the existence of Apple, the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad?

Look at P&S camera sales, which have fallen off a cliff just in the last three years. Now, what happened four years ago???


If Apple put people out of business it was because their products replaced inferior ones or consumers preferred their products, that is the free market at work and the nature of business.

Just to be clear, if you are saying this because you actually think that Apple beating competitors is somehow immoral and unconscionable, you are a sad, sad person.

If you are suggesting, that to be fair, Apple also needs to keep track of how many jobs their success has cost competitors to point out the absurdity of them touting this number, then I agree with you 100%.

If you go back and read my first post you should see that I think Apple reporting something like this is bad judgement and I feel it could backfire on them. The discussion here sort of supports that this might be a bad decision.
post #88 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

Very few Americans would want those repetitive and boring manufacturing jobs Apple shipped to China..

I don't necessarily agree with that. There are a lot of lazy Americans and far too many are on welfare. These kind of people with limited skills could be put to work instead of living off of everybody else, like a bunch of bums.
post #89 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I don't necessarily agree with that. There are a lot of lazy Americans and far too many are on welfare. These kind of people with limited skills could be put to work instead of living off of everybody else, like a bunch of bums.

The Chinese are better workers. It's not going to happen. Foxconn has nearly 1,000,000 employess who live where they work. Something on that scale won't happen in America in this century. It's that simple. Not to mention your idea of getting people off the dole to be the workforce is completely ludicrous.
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post #90 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Whats your point since most of the products you mention aren't made in the USA to start with? Saving trees is a bad thing?

The products mentioned are not manufactured in the states but the companies are American, kinda like say hmmmmm Apple.
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post #91 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

The Chinese are better workers. It's not going to happen. Foxconn has nearly 1,000,000 employess who live where they work. Something on that scale won't happen in America in this century. It's that simple. Not to mention your idea of getting people off the dole to be the workforce is completely ludicrous.

I don't think that it's going to happen either, so I don't disagree with you on that point.
post #92 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgNuke1707 View Post

Damn, replied too soon. And you're right - he could have meant that, but I would think that killing off archaic tech fits right in with the "adapt or die" model. Apple shouldn't quit growing because archaic tech companies or businesses based on their products can't adapt to a modern basis.

Not necessarily archaic techs. P&S cameras arent archaic yet their business is dying because every phone now has a camera, how can they possibly adapt? Build a cameraphone? And listen to you all here call it POS. Yes its nice to have everything in one lil device but the jobs lost will ultimately be far greater than those created.
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post #93 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

Some are made here. Some were designed here. Many were marketed and sold and shipped here. How many stores like, say, Franklin-Covery, have closed? How many employees?

Besides, that's just a few of them. I've got a list I made of hundreds of the silly things.

Smart phones and tablets (iPhone and iPad) have clearcut a huge segment of the consumer electronics and other industries...

I'll ask again. What is your point?
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post #94 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I'll ask again. What is your point?

Same as mine, that that jobs lost will outnumber those gained. Now in defense of Apple they're not alone but they're the worst offender.
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post #95 of 165
If they added the jobs they sub contract via Foxconn thay would add up to 1,000,000 jobs, subtract away then the bs 250,000 they "create" for ups, truck drivers airplanes, and airplane and truck builders and engineers and they could be up to a respectable 750,000. Just add Foxconn to the list apple!
post #96 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Not necessarily archaic techs. P&S cameras arent archaic yet their business is dying because every phone now has a camera, how can they possibly adapt? Build a cameraphone? And listen to you all here call it POS. Yes its nice to have everything in one lil device but the jobs lost will ultimately be far greater than those created.

Innovation typically ends up in making more with less unless it is a new market. It is called progress and it will always be that way.
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post #97 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Same as mine, that that jobs lost will outnumber those gained. Now in defense of Apple they're not alone but they're the worst offender.

Educate me by giving me some real examples that back up your POV.
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post #98 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Innovation typically ends up in making more with less unless it is a new market. It is called progress and it will always be that way.

Doesn't mean one has to be hypocritical. Don't flaunt a number of jobs created when in fact your technology had effectively killed so many more. Yes I know its a dog eat dog world.
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post #99 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadSnuggles View Post

Hmmmm...I'm not a fan of nationalism, but...you owe nothing to the community that made you who you are? Well, at least you use Apple products!

Not to mention Apple isn't a private company. Ireland was incorrect in his orginal statement.
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post #100 of 165
Apple I love yah, but counting the UPS/FedEx person as an indirect job created by Apple is a stretch to say the least. That person would have a delivery job regardless of that iPad delivery. They just might have 2-5 (or some other small #) fewer deliveries per week. If that's their argument then I guess that person who sells you that iPad in a VZ, AT&T or Best Buy store should be counted, too? And no they should not be counted.
post #101 of 165
Apple knows exactly how much they pay FedEx and UPS. They can see FedEx and UPS revenues for each year. Divide first by second and you get what percentage of FedEx employees Apple is "responsible" for. Is this so difficult to understand? Is this not conceptually valid as well?

If Apple were to suddenly switch to USPS, would it not be a major impact on FedEx and UPS? Several employees would likely be fired and USPS would likely hire about as many employees.

Here is a company that has generally under promised and overdelivered. Even in their worst times, they have offered to make good on promises made - like free bumpers during antenna gate. Even after Sep 2010, anyone who asked for a bumper got it free.

Even in the Foxconn case, Apple has done way beyond what it is required to do.

But for some reason, Apple has started becoming a company that a few people love to hate. It is a pity really - because Apple is now a cultural phenomenon. There are many people who run their businesses thinking "how would Apple do this" or "what would Jobs do".

More power to Apple and more success. "Think Different"
post #102 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Educate me by giving me some real examples that back up your POV.

How many devices has your iPhone replaced? MP3 player? GPS? Do you have any maps in your car? Calculator? Portable gaming device?

We no longer buy music at a store. How many record stores closed down and how many people did they employ? Kodak is going out of business, how many employees there? That list is long and only going to get longer.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #103 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Doesn't mean one has to be hypocritical. Don't flaunt a number of jobs created when in fact your technology had effectively killed so many more. Yes I know its a dog eat dog world.

The united states of apple will create even more jobs, as long as the bulk of them squarely reside in China, and the 30/70 cut is there for apple.
post #104 of 165
I can't believe that there are so many here on AI that are caught up in things staying as they are and so opposed to progress. I guess they feel we would be better off without innovative products and companies like Apple.
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post #105 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

Apple I love yah, but counting the UPS/FedEx person as an indirect job created by Apple is a stretch to say the least. That person would have a delivery job regardless of that iPad delivery. They just might have 2-5 (or some other small #) fewer deliveries per week. If that's their argument then I guess that person who sells you that iPad in a VZ, AT&T or Best Buy store should be counted, too? And no they should not be counted.

Are you really that naive?
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post #106 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

How many devices has your iPhone replaced? MP3 player? GPS? Do you have any maps in your car? Calculator? Portable gaming device?

We no longer buy music at a store. How many record stores closed down and how many people did they employ? Kodak is going out of business, how many employees there? That list is long and only going to get longer.

Bookstores, planned, newspapers bullied... Mags too, as well as retailers of all these, delivery people, "and the people that build the tracks for delivery" as apple likes to claim in their pr which is always short (and not just in apple's case only) for propaganda.
post #107 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I can't believe that there are so many here on AI that are caught up in things staying as they are and so opposed to progress. I guess they feel we would be better off without innovative products and companies like Apple.

I never said I was opposed to progress, I'm opposed to the attempt at trying to fool me and the general public by a BS number of jobs created when in fact you've killed way more.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
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post #108 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

What free market? What competition? Whenever there's a worthy competitor it gets bought. We used to have Exxon and Mobil competing and what do we have now? ExxonMobil and gas prices through the roof. The problem with capitalism is that the vast majority of us aren't capitalists we're consumers. ATT was broken up because it was a monopoly and its slowly gone back to where it was.

Monopolies are created through protectionism in concert with the government via the magic of regulations and restrictions on competition. A free market will always deliver an optimal solution because competition squeezes out inefficiency.

AT&T was restricted from buying T-mobile. It should have been allowed. As AT&T becomes less and less responsive to consumers, it opens the door to new competitors, as long as they are not restricted from fair competition with AT&T via graft and corruption at a political level.

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post #109 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I can't believe that there are so many here on AI that are caught up in things staying as they are and so opposed to progress. I guess they feel we would be better off without innovative products and companies like Apple.

People do not dislike innovation, they dislike hypocrisy. Jobs told the president those jobs aren't coming back, reportedly, at least you have to admire his honesty and unapologetic attitude, but the suck ups to Cook apparently decided that it would be wise for them to come up with some apologist hupocritical bs that backfired on them. Too bad that corporate responsibility means paying these lackies to embarrass you with their rubbish, apple would have been better off actually paying some of their more than enormous cash reserves to do some actual good in projects people would respect them for. But with this shit they ll soon manage to make even the arch hypocrites of schmidt's google look comparatively benign.

First major strategic desicion by Tim Cook for apple's post Jobsian profile has been a major pr disaster IMHO, takes a lot to fill the mans shoes.
post #110 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Apple has a job to do - to sell as many systems and make as much money as they can. The latest nonsense about working conditions in China and exporting jobs to China could have an impact on their sales.

Presenting facts and independent audits hasn't helped. So the only option left is to fight FUD with more FUD - which is what Apple's doing here. If it convinces some of the complainers to stop complaining, it's worth every penny - and certainly not 'completely unnecessary' as you allege.

You may be right, but in my experience answering critics with sinister political motives solves nothing because the "problem" is an illusion created by the critic. Responding to them plays right into their trap.

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post #111 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I can't believe that there are so many here on AI that are caught up in things staying as they are and so opposed to progress. I guess they feel we would be better off without innovative products and companies like Apple.

I'm sure you wouldn't feel so pro technology if it was your job or business that was affected.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #112 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Monopolies are created through protectionism in concert with the government via the magic of regulations and restrictions on competition. A free market will always deliver an optimal solution because competition squeezes out inefficiency.

AT&T was restricted from buying T-mobile. It should have been allowed. As AT&T becomes less and less responsive to consumers, it opens the door to new competitors, as long as they are not restricted from fair competition with AT&T via graft and corruption at a political level.

I just love how the free housing market turned out without regulations.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #113 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

I never said I was opposed to progress, I'm opposed to the attempt at trying to fool me and the general public by a BS number of jobs created when in fact you've killed way more.

Please show me how and why Apple's job creation claim is BS.
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post #114 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Please show me how and why Apple's job creation claim is BS.

Multiquote this whole thread is that what you are asking of him?
post #115 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Please show me how and why Apple's job creation claim is BS.

I think its BS, who the hell are you that I should show you how I came to that conclusion?
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #116 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

I'm sure you wouldn't feel so pro technology if it was your job or business that was affected.

Jobs are constantly changing with the times, whether you are an astronaut or a farmer. Both are critical occupations that change over time. Either the jobs and people change over time or the jobs will done better by someone else who has a better method or increased efficiency. I hate to break it to you but that has always been true and always will be.
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post #117 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Monopolies are created through protectionism in concert with the government via the magic of regulations and restrictions on competition. A free market will always deliver an optimal solution because competition squeezes out inefficiency.

I believed in the free market years ago. It doesn't exist in the USA. Why, because bribery and influence pedaling are rampant in every part of the US government and state governments. Corporations give campaign contributions for favors. Those favors come back as regulations or taxes that prevent competitors from entering markets to compete with existing companies. They also include special tax breaks that aren't available to other companies.

I honestly don't know when the USA last had a free market or if it ever did.
post #118 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

250,000 people are paying apple to to be their developers. But how many are making a profit?

They were counting jobs created.

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post #119 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

They were counting jobs created.

You create a "job" when someone is earning a living off of it, not when someone pays you to sustain your store so they can play around with development and see what happens. If the wanted to be honest about this, and not spin numbers, they should have counted devs that earn at least the minimum wage per month from their app profits. That's how they could have claimed they created jobs, although someone could say they created shit cause the devs already have a job that of developing, be it for apples platform or for someone else's, if they happen to pay apple or whoever a premium so they can host their creations on their store, apple isn't giving them a job, it's giving them an opportunity to sell their wares. Much like a hardware or a clothes store owner can't claim they created a job by virtue of allowing tools or clothes manufacturers to sell in their store.

In turn devs are helping apple sell boatloads more iOS devices based on their ingenuity with no guarantee of their profit whatsoever. Apple is sustaining their store and dev tools on subscription of them and also has a de facto 30% profit. And then the market is free from apple to drive sale prices at any point, even to the detriment of many devs in a race to the bottom. But apple is not risking anything, their costs and profits are guaranteed as well as the added value of saling more devices on the strength of the apps others create. The app store was a great idea, apple's management has been very commendable so far (although some could claim that protectionism and sponsoring of devs would be warranted seeing as so many of them give so much back to apple) but apple isn't really risking anything while devs are in a ferocious race against each other and risking everything. And I hate the so far we have paid so and so to devs. No you haven't paid shit, your customers and the devs customers paid them, and you got a cut.

All that hardly fits my description of 200,000 jobs offered. If they want to offer them jobs they should hire them at apple, that's how people create and offer jobs.
post #120 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

I believed in the free market years ago. It doesn't exist in the USA. Why, because bribery and influence pedaling are rampant in every part of the US government and state governments. Corporations give campaign contributions for favors. Those favors come back as regulations or taxes that prevent competitors from entering markets to compete with existing companies. They also include special tax breaks that aren't available to other companies.

I honestly don't know when the USA last had a free market or if it ever did.

It would say it never did, at least we went from actually killing the competition to just economically killing them lives intact.
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