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iPhone 4S with iOS 5.1 begins advertising AT&T HSDPA as '4G' - Page 2

post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by neosum View Post

"Apple hasn't stated what baseband is in the iPhone 4S (and I guess we won't know absolutely for certain until it gets opened up), but it is almost without doubt MDM6600 just like the Verizon iPhone 4. The specs all line up, and while that part doesn't include 64QAM on the downlink, it does include a number of the other HSPA+ features I've mentioned, and is thus 3GPP Rel.7 and therefore "HSPA+."

image: http://images.anandtech.com/doci/4943/zjWXE_575px.png

Source: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4943/t...spa-is-real-4g

More info...

"MDM6610 also appears to inherit all the air interfaces that MDM6600 had, including WCDMA/HSPA+ with HSDPA 14.4, HSUPA 5.76, GSM, CDMA 1x/EVDO (up to Rev.B, though Apple notes only A is used at present), and finally GPS/GLONASS."

"The MDM6610 inside the 4S supports HSDPA 14.4 and HSUPA 5.76, alongside a number of 3GPP Rel.7 features which are colloquially known as HSPA+. I talked about this extensively in another piece when there was some confusion about whether or not the 4S is HSPA+ - which it is."

And here I too was thinking it wasn't HSPA+. In that case it's right in line with ITU so that should lessen the bitching and moaning a little bit... but I doubt it.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by neosum View Post

"Apple hasn't stated what baseband is in the iPhone 4S (and I guess we won't know absolutely for certain until it gets opened up), but it is almost without doubt MDM6600 just like the Verizon iPhone 4. The specs all line up, and while that part doesn't include 64QAM on the downlink, it does include a number of the other HSPA+ features I've mentioned, and is thus 3GPP Rel.7 and therefore 'HSPA+.'"



Source: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4943/t...spa-is-real-4g

Heh. The fact that the phone _MAY_ declare itself as a 3GPP Release 7 terminal in the RRC connection request does make it officially a Release 7 phone. HSPA+ was defined in R7 as well, but that does not really make the terminal an HSPA+ terminal if it doesn't utilise the new features. It just means that it is a Release 7 terminal. This is where the confusion sets. Technically yes, you are an HSPA+ device if you enable a single HSPA+ feature, but that's not what the public expects. The public expect an HSPA+ device to provide higher nitrates.

As far as I've been able to find publicly , the 4S doesn't really implement any HSPA+ functionality (64QAM in the downlink, 16QAM uplink, MIMO, Dual Cell, CPC, FDPCH). I have read the Anandtech article before and I think he is a bit wrong in his assertion of the 4S being HSPA+. Many others agree on the comments-side of the article.

Claiming HSPA+ based on a chart off a chipset's capabilities list doesn't make it so if the phone itself doesn't enable the functionality. There are several possible reasons for that. The possible lack of an advanced receiver functionality for example may easily account for that.

Here's another take: Why didn't Apple claim the 4S to be HSPA+ in the launch but does claim so for the new iPad? The iPad can achieve bitrates of 21Mbps in single cell and 42Mbps in dual cell indicating it to be a class 14/21 device. Why would Apple not claim the 4S to be HSPA+ if it really were that?

Until there is real proof that the 4S is an HSPA+ device with actual HSPA+ features enabled, It really isn't an HSPA+ device (it however is a fast HSPA one).

If anyone has a captured RRC connection request from a 4S, that would prove all of it immediately. I'd have grabbed it ages ago if I had access to a 4S.

Regs
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

More info...

"MDM6610 also appears to inherit all the air interfaces that MDM6600 had, including WCDMA/HSPA+ with HSDPA 14.4, HSUPA 5.76, GSM, CDMA 1x/EVDO (up to Rev.B, though Apple notes only A is used at present), and finally GPS/GLONASS."

"The MDM6610 inside the 4S supports HSDPA 14.4 and HSUPA 5.76, alongside a number of 3GPP Rel.7 features which are colloquially known as HSPA+. I talked about this extensively in another piece when there was some confusion about whether or not the 4S is HSPA+ - which it is."

And here I too was thinking it wasn't HSPA+. In that case it's right in line with ITU so that should lessen the bitching and moaning a little bit... but I doubt it.

Just a question: If I market a car as being a 300BHP car, but due to one reason or another, I've changed the car's software so that it only outputs 150BHP, should I still claim it's a 300BHP car? Note that I haven't seen Apple claim the 4S to be HSPA+.

My point is that even if the chipset on the 4S is HSPA+ capable, but the 4S hasn't got any of the HSPA+ capabilities enabled, isn't it effectively an HSPA device?

Regs,
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Just a question: If I market a car as being a 300BHP car, but due to one reason or another, I've changed the car's software so that it only outputs 150BHP, should I still claim it's a 300BHP car? Note that I haven't seen Apple claim the 4S to be HSPA+.

My point is that even if the chipset on the 4S is HSPA+ capable, but the 4S hasn't got any of the HSPA+ capabilities enabled, isn't it effectively an HSPA device?

Regs,

Sure, but you're talking about the device is capable of in the HW and capable of in development. It's like Apple using a 1GHz A4 but under clocking it to 800MHz. Note that only the iPad ever stated the processor hertz.

But there there is the question of whether HSPA+ is enabled or not? Even if it isn't, there is no law that prevents a carrier from calling it 4G.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Heh. The fact that the phone _MAY_ declare itself as a 3GPP Release 7 terminal in the RRC connection request does make it officially a Release 7 phone. HSPA+ was defined in R7 as well, but that does not really make the terminal an HSPA+ terminal if it doesn't utilise the new features. It just means that it is a Release 7 terminal. This is where the confusion sets. Technically yes, you are an HSPA+ device if you enable a single HSPA+ feature, but that's not what the public expects. The public expect an HSPA+ device to provide higher nitrates.

As far as I've been able to find publicly , the 4S doesn't really implement any HSPA+ functionality (64QAM in the downlink, 16QAM uplink, MIMO, Dual Cell, CPC, FDPCH). I have read the Anandtech article before and I think he is a bit wrong in his assertion of the 4S being HSPA+. Many others agree on the comments-side of the article.

Claiming HSPA+ based on a chart off a chipset's capabilities list doesn't make it so if the phone itself doesn't enable the functionality. There are several possible reasons for that. The possible lack of an advanced receiver functionality for example may easily account for that.

Here's another take: Why didn't Apple claim the 4S to be HSPA+ in the launch but does claim so for the new iPad? The iPad can achieve bitrates of 21Mbps in single cell and 42Mbps in dual cell indicating it to be a class 14/21 device. Why would Apple not claim the 4S to be HSPA+ if it really were that?

Until there is real proof that the 4S is an HSPA+ device with actual HSPA+ features enabled, It really isn't an HSPA+ device (it however is a fast HSPA one).

If anyone has a captured RRC connection request from a 4S, that would prove all of it immediately. I'd have grabbed it ages ago if I had access to a 4S.

Regs

"The confusion in the case of many HSDPA 14.4 (Category 10) devices seems to center on whether it is or isn't HSPA+ if it doesn't include 64QAM support on the downlink (which starts in category 13). This is one of those few times that looking at the Wikipedia table for HSDPA UE categories can be misleading. UE categories with 64QAM are introduced in 3GPP release 7, however it's up to manufacturers to include or not include that feature when actually making hardware. It's interesting to me that all of this misinformation comes up over HSDPA UE category, and somehow HSUPA UE category never gets brought up - I haven't seen anyone claiming that some baseband isn't HSPA+ because it excludes 16QAM on the uplink, yet the overwhelming majority of devices are just using QPSK. "

Still nitpicking over a phone that you don't own and probably have no interest in owning? Where does it say that EVERY feature has to be included to be HSPA+? It doesn't bother me what the bar displays, I knew it'd be a long shot from 14.4mbps anyway. Try asking Apple to find out why they finally changed the display to 4g.
post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by neosum View Post

"Still nitpicking over a phone that you don't own and probably have no interest in owning? Where does it say that EVERY feature has to be included to be HSPA+? It doesn't bother me what the bar displays, I knew it'd be a long shot from 14.4mbps anyway. Try asking Apple to find out why they finally changed the display to 4g.

I'm currently fine with my ip4 and will likely upgrade to the next one when it comes along. As to 3GPP specifications and how the features operate: I work at least weekly with 3GPP R5-R9 features and functionalities on real equipment and network analyzers so I have a little idea on the topic.

About what is HSPA+: I didn't claim it needs every feature no (or at least didn't intend to - apologies if it came out that way). If it's a Release 7 device and supports even one feature it can technically be regarded as HSPA+. The HSPA+ support claim seems to have come from Anandtech and fans, not Apple.

Like I said. I don't think Apple itself claimed the 4S to be HSPA+, rather just "max 14.4Mbps". I'm fine with that. The part that I am genuinely interested in is which R7 functionalities the 4S actually supports. Not from a bashing point of view, but just technical interest. There is an interest for me to see how certain functionalities are becoming available to consumers. I was hoping that someone here might have had a bit more detail on the topic, but apparently not.

As to the speed question: Even if the chipset was capable of 64QAM (which it likely is since Qualcomm claims it to be HSPA+), it is a smart move for Apple not to advertise it because it would never give you a real life improvement since it requires a much better Ec/No than real networks offer. Smart.

The 4G sign? Don't know yet - too early to make an opinion. Perhaps it was made just to show a R7 or newer network? That way the same display would show when a faster network is available for the new iPad. The older devices just wouldn't benefit from it, but would behave the same way in the same networks. No problem there.
post #47 of 50
Whatever - even when the 4G indicator on its going depend where you are for best results. Close to home in a subdivision near Houston my d/l-u/l speeds are 1.5/.7. Close to a highway or closer to downtown its 6/2.5 as per Speedtest.

Hopefully this addition of the new icon doesn't fry the battery faster.
post #48 of 50
Using the speedtest.net app (available free at the APP Store), this morning I recorded 8.27 MBPS download speeds on my iPhone connected to AT&T, almost as fast as my home network with AT&T uVerse Internet service.

Speeds varied by location. On the freeway, late afternoon yesterday, the download speeds dropped below 1.0 MBPS in some spots, mostly hovered around 2.0 MBPS, and reached 4.0 MBPS in one area. The 8.27 speed was achieved this morning while parked, so presumably the best speeds are possible when locked in on just one cell site. Upload speeds were mostly in the range of 1.0 to 2.0 MBPS.

Note: My test results represent just a few samples; not enough testing was done to establish average speeds and/or determine what factors affect the results. (Time of day, network traffic, location, topography, proximity to cell sites, etc. all can impact results.)

Notwithstanding the unscientific testing method, the point is download speeds over 8 MBPS are in fact achievable under the right circumstances, so whether or not the 4G description is valid, performance is improved with the update to iOS 5.1.
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4bat View Post

Using the speedtest.net app (available free at the APP Store), this morning I recorded 8.27 MBPS download speeds on my iPhone connected to AT&T, almost as fast as my home network with AT&T uVerse Internet service.

Speeds varied by location. On the freeway, late afternoon yesterday, the download speeds dropped below 1.0 MBPS in some spots, mostly hovered around 2.0 MBPS, and reached 4.0 MBPS in one area. The 8.27 speed was achieved this morning while parked, so presumably the best speeds are possible when locked in on just one cell site. Upload speeds were mostly in the range of 1.0 to 2.0 MBPS.

Note: My test results represent just a few samples; not enough testing was done to establish average speeds and/or determine what factors affect the results. (Time of day, network traffic, location, topography, proximity to cell sites, etc. all can impact results.)

Notwithstanding the unscientific testing method, the point is download speeds over 8 MBPS are in fact achievable under the right circumstances, so whether or not the 4G description is valid, performance is improved with the update to iOS 5.1.


I'm not sure whether 5.1 had anything to do with it - I noticed better D/L + U/L speeds
when the i4S came out. Maybe 5.1 tweaked it a bit but (under ideal conditions - ie stationary near a major highway or closer to downtown) its was 5-6 mbs / DL and 1-2
mbs UL. Still a noticeable jump from my 3G and competitive/equal with a decent WiFi hookup like at the Charlotte Airport.

I might have to take a trip into downtown Houston in search of the elusive 8 mps DL speed. But it seems reasonable, given what I can get in the outlying areas.
post #50 of 50
Really, no reason to give this more thought than it needs. AT&T markets two flavors of 4G, and have been doing so for a hell of a long time.

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