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New iPad 4G LTE incompatible with networks outside North America - Page 2

post #41 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

What country do you live in that claims HSPA+ is not 4G?

Germany, for example.

This is the coverage map of Deutsche Telekom (T-Mobile):

http://www.t-mobile.de/funkversorgun...5400-_,00.html

You can click on "3G / UMTS / HSPA" to get the coverage of their 3G network (which is almost entirely now DC-HSPA with 42 Mbps). And if you click on "4G / LTE", you see the coverage of their new LTE network (on 800MHz & 1800 MHz).

I now it most be a bit ironic for people from the US to see T-Mobile (although they don't use that brand officially here in Germany at the moment) state that 4G starts with LTE. I guess it's because in Germany, all 4 operators are basically on equal footing technology & spectrum wise, so there was no need to "lower the standards" in marketing speak.
post #42 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhamson View Post

That would be Estonia. Our HSPA is running at 21.6Mb/s. Here is the Tech separation that our provider has.

https://www.emt.ee/en/web/www/firmas...line-vorguinfo

Click on the "User Interface Specifications in AS EMT Public mobile Network"

Quote:
Originally Posted by spezi View Post

Germany, for example.

This is the coverage map of Deutsche Telekom (T-Mobile):

http://www.t-mobile.de/funkversorgun...5400-_,00.html

You can click on "3G / UMTS / HSPA" to get the coverage of their 3G network (which is almost entirely now DC-HSPA with 42 Mbps). And if you click on "4G / LTE", you see the coverage of their new LTE network (on 800MHz & 1800 MHz).

Interesting. And on every apple.com/XX/ipad/features site I checked (for various languages I thought I could decrypt) they all say:
Really really fast is your only option.
The new iPad supports fast cellular networks the world over — up to 4G LTE. So you can browse the web, stream content, or download a movie at blazing-fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies including HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA — the fastest 3G networks out there. You’ll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+. So even there, in the US, they are referring to HSPA+ as 3G even though iOS 5.1 changed it to 4G for AT&T and the iTU says it's 4G.

I just wish we could get a simple term based on a level of improved performance — not underlying architecture — that customers can actually comprehend and actually give a damn about.

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post #43 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You're 4G if the carrier says your 4G. It's a marketing term, nothing else.

How will you know you're using LTE and not HSPA+? You can check the throughput and latency but this just tells you if you're not on HSPA+, not if you're on LTE as your LTE might be crap for a variety of reasons.

But I wonder why one has to know. WCDMA is 3G. That's 384Kbps. Should HSPA+ (which is define by the ITU as 4G) still register as 3G when it's Category 10 at 14.4Mbps? That's a huge jump in performance. It's much larger percentage jump than 14.4Mps to 73Mbps for LTE.

And to make matters worse, despite what the ITU defined people are still holding onto the ITU's old definition like a German U-boat thinking the war isn't over. Does calling 384Kbps and 73MBps all within the realm of 3G makes sense? I don't see how.

The bottom line is customers don't care about some underlying technology, they only care about the user experience which in this case is the speed of the network. At 14.4MBps HSPA+'s max theoretical speed is at least a one generation bump over the previous generation from the user's perspective... and the ITU's as of 2010.

HSPA+'s max theoretical speed is actually 168mb/s. Currently, the best HSPA+ networks go up to 42mb/s, and there are several phones with this ability (I've got the HTC Amaze, which has 42mb/s HSPA+ capability). T-Mobile recently cancelled plans to roll-out their 84mb/s HSPA+ network, instead opting for LTE.
post #44 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by spezi View Post

Germany, for example.

On the german iPad features page Apple advertises with 4G and not with with the 4G/LTE icon. I bet they will have too change that again to 3G or 3G+ or HSPA+ at some point.
post #45 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So even there, in the US, they are referring to HSPA+ as 3G even though iOS 5.1 changed it to 4G for AT&T and the iTU says it's 4G.

Do they now? I thought, according to ITU, even LTE is not quite 4G, only LTE Advanced will be. Confusing, indeed.
post #46 of 89
If I buy a AT&T Network Model of U.S of the new iPad, Can I use it with 3G service with my local service provider in my country? without any International Roaming Charges like a local connection? We dont have 4G LTE as yet. It is only 3G !!

And in future if there is 4G available here will the Same AT&T Model be able to run 4G LTE in my country ?
post #47 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by spezi View Post

Do they now? I thought, according to ITU, even LTE is not quite 4G, only LTE Advanced will be. Confusing, indeed.

They changed in December 2010 to include HSPA+ and LTE with some caveat that the carrier had to be working toward LTE-Advanced or something.

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post #48 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

What country do you live in that claims HSPA+ is not 4G?

Hi, I would say that this should go for all countries. The HSPA+ and LTE are called 4G in marketing but according to the ITU-T the 4G standard has two technologies: LTE-Advanced ( successor of LTE) and WirelessMAN-Advanced. Even if HSPA+ is fast in theory, it is as far as I understande a 3G technology in the same way as GPRS and Edge are GSM technologies (2G)
post #49 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brum View Post

Hi, I would say that this should go for all countries. The HSPA+ and LTE are called 4G in marketing but according to the ITU-T the 4G standard has two technologies: LTE-Advanced ( successor of LTE) and WirelessMAN-Advanced. Even if HSPA+ is fast in theory, it is as far as I understande a 3G technology in the same way as GPRS and Edge are GSM technologies (2G)

I don't get why people quote the older ITU definition. It's not like they recently changed it.

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post #50 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

They changed in December 2010 to include HSPA+ and LTE with some caveat that the carrier had to be working toward LTE-Advanced or something.

Oh, right. I seem to remember now... Why can't they all just stick to a naming convention... \
post #51 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Interesting. I just wish we could get a simple term based on a level of improved performance not underlying architecture that customers can actually comprehend and actually give a damn about.

Hi I think that the architecture still is important since the as far as I understand 4G should be 100% based on IP while 3G use ip and older protocols.
post #52 of 89
Removed
post #53 of 89
Sorry see that you already linked to it
post #54 of 89
In many European countries the 3G networks have severe capacity problems and many operators have more or less shut down investments in these networks in favour of the newer LTE networks. This is for example the case in Sweden. An iPad without compatibility with the European LtE frequencies but with the HSPA+ etc will not help very much since thespeed in reality is very slow in many parts of the 3G networks. It does not mean a thing to add support for higher speed if the capacity is so bad that you often get download speed 10-20 kbits/second which today is the reality in many of the more crowded places in the major cities. And the thing is offcourse also that the newer things like HSPA+ are not really available outside the cities.
post #55 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

And here I thought LTE would help unify things. Silly me.

Hmmmm..... This discussion sounds familiar.
post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Verizon's largest 3G network v. AT&T's fastest 3G network. I guess the reason no one throw a fit over Verizon's 3G starting with "data speeds of up to 153 kbit/s with real world data transmission averaging 60–100 kbit/s" when AT&T's EDGE maxing out at 473.6 kbps is because there was no iDevice involved for people to care about it. If a Zune falls in a warehouse and there is no one around to give a damn does it make a sound?




Yep, you're right. About halfway down on this page: http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/

edit: On the UK page that same image makes no mention of LTE. It even replaces LTE in the menu bar with 3G: http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/features/

I have to give it to Apple. They are quick. They realized that this was going to be a problem and removed it from their webpage. I know this because I called them and asked them about the frequency differences. An Apple tech guy said that it doesn't matter because of the spread spectrum and that it covers across a large swath so go ahead and put your money down on that new iPad. I think I will check the German page and see if they washed it as well.

Still mentions LTE: http://www.apple.com/de/ipad/specs/
post #57 of 89
I believe the UK will be using 800MHz & 2.6GHz so the mobile iPad version is no good here unless the LTE radios are tuneable. If not what happens when I go on holiday to USA or a n other non-compatible LTE area? Perhaps it will drop back to the global standard UMTS or GSM?
post #58 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjp View Post

As I understand it, the article is correct in that there are different LTE standards in Europe/Asia that are not compatible with N American standards.

However, the 3G-GSM supported by AT&T in USA is the same as GSM in Europe, Australia, etc and that is supported by both the Verizon and AT&T versions. So you won't be able to run LTE, but you will be able to pick up a SIM in any AT&T compatible country and run off a short-term data plan while you are traveling.

Spoken from a live-in-America perspective.

Jim

Hi Jim,

To clarify, does that mean the Verizon "new Ipad" can be used abroad with a local sim card? This was not possible with the VZ iPad2.

Right now I'm unsure whether to get the VZ or AT&T version of the "new iPad". I travel internationally often and I want to get the right iPad (even if I have to use a 3g service abroad with a local sim card)

Thanks!!
post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by 712clark View Post

I believe the UK will be using 800MHz & 2.6GHz so the mobile iPad version is no good here unless the LTE radios are tuneable. If not what happens when I go on holiday to USA or a n other non-compatible LTE area? Perhaps it will drop back to the global standard UMTS or GSM?

I spoke to Apple UK. Chances are they will not work on LTE even though the tech support said, "sure, sure. No problem. "
post #60 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxim730 View Post

Hi Jim,

To clarify, does that mean the Verizon "new Ipad" can be used abroad with a local sim card? This was not possible with the VZ iPad2.

Right now I'm unsure whether to get the VZ or AT&T version of the "new iPad". I travel internationally often and I want to get the right iPad (even if I have to use a 3g service abroad with a local sim card)

Thanks!!

I'm already overseas and I can say with confidence that the current iPad 2 works just fine and the New iPad will work equally fine. It will simply not work on LTE in Europe but should work wit LTE once in the US.
post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I spoke to Apple UK. Chances are they will not work on LTE even though the tech support said, "sure, sure. No problem. "

UK hasn't even got their licenses yet and networks will probably not be ready much before 2014. I would probably go for the WiFi version now or wait until the iPad 5 or iPad 6 release.
post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by 712clark View Post

UK hasn't even got their licenses yet and networks will probably not be ready much before 2014. I would probably go for the WiFi version now or wait until the iPad 5 or iPad 6 release.

Or buy the new version and use it on 3G. If the screen and performance is worth $100 to you, then it probably makes sense to buy the new version even if you can't use it on 4G.
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post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by antosh View Post

Note also that while the AT&T model lists both 700 and 2100MHz frequencies, the Verizon one only lists 700:

http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/

('Wireless and Cellular" section)

There only seems to be one 4G model sold in Canada, same as the AT&T one:

http://www.apple.com/ca/ipad/specs/


So I'd guess that either some of the Canadian networks use the 2100 band, or that Apple are mostly making the non-CDMA version to be sold globally.

Speculation: the shortages of the AT&T version might be more to do with that model's worldwide popularity than AT&T outselling Verizon in the US ;-)

OK if you really want to know what is going on.

There are 2 different 700 Mhz Bands , upper and lower. Right now , ATT has 10 x 10 Mhz in the lower and Verizon has 10 x 10 Mhz in the Upper. It is highly improbable to see a device that supports both blocks because of the Transmit and Receive bands in each are opposite which causes challenges to Antenna and RF design.

ATT and Verizon both also have AWS spectrum.

In Canada they haven't auctioned off 700 MHZ spectrum yet, so all 3 LTE providers use AWS or 1700 / 2100 not to be confused with the european 2100 Band.

So my guess is ATT has Lower 700 / AWS for LTE, maybe 2100 for Europe.

Verizon would have Upper 700 / AWS (Maybe) and 2100 for Europe.

From a CDMA / HSPA perspective, the device probably has 850 / 1900 for CDMA (Verizon) and HSPA (ATT) but we are not sure if they enabled AWS enabled for HSPA (which would be great news for T-Mobile and all the Wind / Mobilicity folks in Canada).

They indicate the device supports 12 bands (probably the ATT one as it may be the world device) but they don't mention which technologies are supported for AWS.

Technically, its possible, but whether they did or not, we need to see one to verify.

By the way, If any device supports European 2100, you will see 3G networks that are AWS because there is some overlap on the downlink channels between AWS and European 2100, its just the uplink frequencies that are different.

Cheers
post #64 of 89
Considering it is safe to assume that a lot of people who are getting the iPad 3 (aka the new iPad) now will be replacing it again in 2 years time, unless you can already benefit from LTE from where you are, you likely will see very little benefit. This is especially true for us in Europe. In Switzerland, the first LTE cells will go online only later this year (and most likely will be incompatible with the current iPads). So really, the screen and faster CPU/GPU is the only thing that improves for a major percentage of all new iPad owners. Might as well get a Wifi-only iPad then.
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post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I'm already overseas and I can say with confidence that the current iPad 2 works just fine and the New iPad will work equally fine. It will simply not work on LTE in Europe but should work wit LTE once in the US.

Yeah, but you have the AT&T iPad2 correct? The VZ iPad2 will not work unless you a) roam with VZ (costly!!!) or b) in a country that supports CDMA.

I do have the AT&T iPad2 and I can put in a local foreign sim card to surf the web.

But, my question is, do I need to buy the AT&T iPad3 (like the iPad2)? or can I buy the VZ iPad3, put in a foreign sim card and get 3g (or whatever) service?

So, basically, does the VZ iPad3 have GSM frequency support?

The answer seems to be yes from the website: http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/, but I am not as smart as you guys

Wi-Fi (802.11a/b/g/n)
Bluetooth 4.0 technology
Wi-Fi + 4G for AT&T model: LTE (700, 2100 MHz)3; UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+/DC-HSDPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz); GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)

Wi-Fi + 4G for Verizon model: LTE (700 MHz)3; CDMA EV-DO Rev. A (800, 1900 MHz); UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+/DC-HSDPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz); GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
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post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2 View Post

OK if you really want to know what is going on.

There are 2 different 700 Mhz Bands , upper and lower. Right now , ATT has 10 x 10 Mhz in the lower and Verizon has 10 x 10 Mhz in the Upper. It is highly improbable to see a device that supports both blocks because of the Transmit and Receive bands in each are opposite which causes challenges to Antenna and RF design.

ATT and Verizon both also have AWS spectrum.

In Canada they haven't auctioned off 700 MHZ spectrum yet, so all 3 LTE providers use AWS or 1700 / 2100 not to be confused with the european 2100 Band.

So my guess is ATT has Lower 700 / AWS for LTE, maybe 2100 for Europe.

Verizon would have Upper 700 / AWS (Maybe) and 2100 for Europe.

From a CDMA / HSPA perspective, the device probably has 850 / 1900 for CDMA (Verizon) and HSPA (ATT) but we are not sure if they enabled AWS enabled for HSPA (which would be great news for T-Mobile and all the Wind / Mobilicity folks in Canada).

They indicate the device supports 12 bands (probably the ATT one as it may be the world device) but they don't mention which technologies are supported for AWS.

Technically, its possible, but whether they did or not, we need to see one to verify.

By the way, If any device supports European 2100, you will see 3G networks that are AWS because there is some overlap on the downlink channels between AWS and European 2100, its just the uplink frequencies that are different.

Cheers

Core2 (and anyone else who may know the answer) - you seem to be most knowledgable about the various networks and I was hoping you could give me some advice. I live in the US, and currently have the AT&T version of the ipad 2. I am giving my wife the 2 and upgrading to the 3. I use Verizon for cell service and LTE is widely available in the area I live and the places I tend to travel. AT&T's LTE network coverage is not nearly as good (yet) as Verizon's is. But, the ATT ipad service has been great for travel out of the country as the ipad is unlocked and has a sim card so I have been able to purchase local SIM cards and use the ipad at a fraction of the cost of roaming on either AT&T's or Verizon's network. And, ATT's 3G/quasi 4G service (HSPA) is far faster than Verizon's 3G CDMA service.
Do you know whether or not the Verizon version of the ipad 3 will have a SIM card that allows for the use of non-Verizon service in other countries? Or, is the SIM card going to be for LTE service only and not for 3G foreign service?
Sorry for the long-winded post, but I guess my question comes down to which cell carrier would be a better choice given the facts/issues described above. Thanks in advance for any and all advice on this issue.

-SMR
post #67 of 89
Despite having the most bands ever on any mobile device, it gets criticized fr having too few...

This is why AI is a third or fourth tier website. I go everywhere else first.
post #68 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post


btw: On an OT comment. It's a shame that AI thinks it need 10 tracking companies, 3 marketing tracking companies, and 3 social networking tracking elements on this article's page. I wonder what else of our data is AI making money from.

AI doesn't "think" it "needs" it.

AI "knows" it can make more money selling you to more trackers.

You are AI's product.
post #69 of 89
It has now been confirmed that LTE will not work in Europe using the new iPad (use translation service on link http://macworld.idg.se/2.1038/1.4370...n-4g-i-sverige) . Thanks for that Apple. I guess the risk is big that the next iPhone will have the same "malfunction".
post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brum View Post

It has now been confirmed that LTE will not work in Europe using the new iPad (use translation service on link http://macworld.idg.se/2.1038/1.4370...n-4g-i-sverige) . Thanks for that Apple. I guess the risk is big that the next iPhone will have the same "malfunction".

How is it a malfunction when Apple never claimed that it would work in Europe?
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post #71 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

How is it a malfunction when Apple never claimed that it would work in Europe?

He has to have something to complain about.

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post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

He has to have something to complain about.

It would be helpful to potential purchasers if Apple themselves clarified it, don't you think? Or have they already done so? It shouldn't always be buyer-beware.
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post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It would be helpful to potential purchasers if Apple themselves clarified it, don't you think? Or have they already done so? It shouldn't always be buyer-beware.

From the US order page (actually, all of them):

Quote:
In countries without compatible 4G LTE networks, the new iPad will operate on GSM network technologies such as HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA.

And at the bottom of the UK page (I'd imagine all of them):

Quote:
4G coverage is not available in all areas and varies by carrier. See your carrier for details.

And so I went to the linked UK carrier pages. Three out of the four don't even mention the new iPad, much less 4G.

Vodaphone has a 4G tab on their page, but doesn't say anything about if it works or not. Note that it says LTE nowhere on the page. Note also that it doesn't actually say ANYTHING about it. Just a single image per tab.

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post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjp View Post

As I understand it, the article is correct in that there are different LTE standards in Europe/Asia that are not compatible with N American standards.

However, the 3G-GSM supported by AT&T in USA is the same as GSM in Europe, Australia, etc and that is supported by both the Verizon and AT&T versions. So you won't be able to run LTE, but you will be able to pick up a SIM in any AT&T compatible country and run off a short-term data plan while you are traveling.

Spoken from a live-in-America perspective.

Jim

SIM does not have anything to do with frequency or coding standard. Device has. On top of that SIM has to be usable with device.


3G is not as much standardized so may fall on 2G.

4G LTE was supposed to stop partitioning world. Obviously revenue is more important than this.
post #75 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It would be helpful to potential purchasers if Apple themselves clarified it, don't you think? Or have they already done so? It shouldn't always be buyer-beware.

They did - right from the start.

There is absolutely no confusion in Apple's information. You get LTE in the US and Canada if you use one of the partner telcos. Elsewhere, you get 3G.

Do that have to write it on a baseball bat and hit the customer with it?
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post #76 of 89
It may hurt sales in Europe. On the other hand, the original iPhone didn't have 3G and was still a success.
post #77 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

From the US order page (actually, all of them):



And at the bottom of the UK page (I'd imagine all of them):



And so I went to the linked UK carrier pages. Three out of the four don't even mention the new iPad, much less 4G.

Vodaphone has a 4G tab on their page, but doesn't say anything about if it works or not. Note that it says LTE nowhere on the page. Note also that it doesn't actually say ANYTHING about it. Just a single image per tab.

Thanks TS. Why all the questions and confusion from potential EU buyers then? Is Apple not being clear enough in your opinion or is it failure to read the on the part of the buyer?
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post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Thanks TS. Why all the questions and confusion from potential EU buyers then? Is Apple not being clear enough in your opinion or is it failure to read the on the part of the buyer?

It's well, I suppose it's partially the fault of both of them. The carriers themselves don't provide any information about compatibility, and Apple doesn't explicitly state it's not compatible (which sometimes is grounds for lawsuits, however frivolous). I think you'd have to go to the tech specs page, find the list of frequencies, and then open up the page of the carrier you want and find THEIR frequencies (though many carriers don't bother putting that on their websiteat least, it's not easy to findand Wikipedia might be a better source than the carriers themselves).

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post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

From the US order page (actually, all of them):



And at the bottom of the UK page (I'd imagine all of them):



And so I went to the linked UK carrier pages. Three out of the four don't even mention the new iPad, much less 4G.

Vodaphone has a 4G tab on their page, but doesn't say anything about if it works or not. Note that it says LTE nowhere on the page. Note also that it doesn't actually say ANYTHING about it. Just a single image per tab.

It did say supporting LTE in at least the Swedish Apple site and since all EU Apple sites seem to have the same text now, then it seems reasonable that the same "mistake" was published on all EU Apple sites and later changed.

One fun thing is that on the different EU Apple sites it still says "The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over. So you can browse the web, stream content or download a film at incredibly fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies, including HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA the fastest 3G networks out there."

The fast mobile networks must be LTE since the other techniques supported are mentioned later in the text block under GSM/UMTS. even if Northt America is big with a quite big population it seems a little over the edge to call one single continent as "the world over"
post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

He has to have something to complain about.

That was a great answer. And still you could read in the article linked that Apple confirmed that they initially promised LTE support and then changed it in at least the Swedish site... And still it says that the fast mobile networks (must be LTE since the other technologies supported are mentioned as GSM/UMTS) is supported "the world over".
Fine if you don't agree on malfunction, but then feel free to call it crippled or any other word that can express how it will operate in the over crowded 3G networks over here. The problem is with the 3G network is not a secret to Apple. The operators in EU have been complaining (fair or not) to Apple that the i-devices "talk too much" on the network.

Anyhow, to me an many others here in Europe the lack of European LTE support for the iPad is disappointing. We have the networks here in Sweden but they are more or less unused since very few devices are available. He operators are screaming for devices that they can promote for use in the new LTE networks. But I guess that it must be non-apple devices until at least this fall ( if the iPhone would get support for the European LTE networks) or until next year when the next iPad is presented.
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  • New iPad 4G LTE incompatible with networks outside North America
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