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Apple's Jony Ive: 'If we can't make something that is better, we won't do it' - Page 2

post #41 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post

They all flipping look the same, but you don't see car manufacturers suing each other, do you?

Actually, you do if you look in the right place:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/7331/chi...pying-designs/
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post #42 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"If we can't do something that is better, we won't do it."- Jony Ive

But define 'better.'

There is a market for low-end products because there are some folks who can't afford Apple prices. So they may buy a $200 Kindle Fire. That, for them, is the definition of 'better.'

There's a guy here at work who I've seen polishing his iPhone 4 with a microfiber cloth. He loves his schanzzy iPhone, and treats it gingerly.

But there is also the low-income parent who will give a simple Kindle Fire to their kids, who will abuse it.
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post #43 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post



Well here's a detail you've overlooked.

Isn't it funny that of all the tablet manufacturers, Samsung is the one with a cable that looks very similar to Apple's?

The samsungs connector actually is the better one as it has a ridge to get better grip on it...
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post #44 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

hmm, well with iOS they should try to get it at least to "good"

but hey they making money... I see it like a nice restaurant you always went to that one day puts hotdogs on the MENU - you just ignore the stupid people who order it.

I think it's more like people who make general assertions but don't use any specificity as to the "problem" nor point out any comparative solutions or products which "do it better".

iOS happens to be a terrific mobile OS, and is arguably the best one available. Of course, most people focus on the UI layer to decide on the OS quality so the comparison of Springboard to others (like Metro on Windows Phone) is really what you are probably talking about...and I agree on that level that Springboard is getting a bit long in the tooth. iOS itself, however, is terrific. It's *nix under the hood, uses the Mach kernel, and Cocoa Touch alone makes it superior to everything else out there. Add the power management and background tasking controls, and it puts iOS over the top.
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post #45 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Ive has been completely absent from any recent Apple events, as well as any product videos. He hasn't made ANY official company statements in recent history.

I'd like to see one post of yours on this forum that isn't completely full of shit. Maybe one day, but I doubt it. You also continue to show your depravity by insulting the physical appearance of others.

Oops, yer right. I take back what I said about him looking like L. Ron. Anyway, nice call-out.

But he does lard-in some bland positive posts once in a while to cover his trolling. Part of the problem. He's being paid and thus would never reform for real.

About Ive as a spokesman of any kind, he speaks the language of art, not business, so he's best at conveying the mysteries behind the process of good design. Someone at MacRumors was saying he should front for Apple at presentations. How can people be so blind and perverse?

Tim Cook is the very essence of thought and reason and competence.
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post #46 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

But define 'better.'

There is a market for low-end products because there are some folks who can't afford Apple prices. So they may buy a $200 Kindle Fire. That, for them, is the definition of 'better.'

There's a guy here at work who I've seen polishing his iPhone 4 with a microfiber cloth. He loves his schanzzy iPhone, and treats it gingerly.

But there is also the low-income parent who will give a simple Kindle Fire to their kids, who will abuse it.

That's not the definition of "better". That's the definition of "affordable".
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post #47 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Saying Tim is ugly is harsh, especially since I would guess you're probably no oil painting, but he is (in my opinion) a bit dull when it comes to the product launches.

He has a tremendously calming voice, which I'm sure is a great asset in difficult meetings etc. but it doesn't lend itself to creating any "wow" factor like Steve Jobs could.

I'll accept that. Likely your description is better.
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post #48 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

The samsungs connector actually is the better one as it has a ridge to get better grip on it...

I would tend to agree, but Ive/Jobs probably rejected this obvious detail as too easily angled up or down on pulling out. It's a fragile interface, that 30-pin slot.
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post #49 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

But define 'better.'

There is a market for low-end products because there are some folks who can't afford Apple prices. So they may buy a $200 Kindle Fire. That, for them, is the definition of 'better.'

There's a guy here at work who I've seen polishing his iPhone 4 with a microfiber cloth. He loves his schanzzy iPhone, and treats it gingerly.

But there is also the low-income parent who will give a simple Kindle Fire to their kids, who will abuse it.

Whats your point? He's aware there's a market. And he specifically stated thats irrelevant. There's also $70 tablets. Why stop at $200? Apple has a certain bare minmum quality in tis philosophy. It's not going to randomly target $200 it it doesn't think it can make a compelling product that's in line with what it stands for at that price.
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post #50 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post

Seeing how their idea of "better" is as basic as the 4S upgrade, that's not really saying much.

So says the person who probably has never used the 4S ... and maybe also never used the 4 that is being compared.

The 4S is quite a significant upgrade. Faster CPU and graphics, HSPA+, integrated noise canceling circuitry, much better camera, BT 4.0, and redesigned antenna. On the software side, there's Siri, 1080p video recording, and real time video stabilization.

Of course, you and your ilk aren't forced to pre-define what a "real" upgrade is so you can just repeat the now age-old "it's just a minor upgrade" every time Apple releases the next iteration. In the words of John Gruber, what would it take? "A fusion energy source? Teleportation? A camera that sees into the future?"
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post #51 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

It's not going to randomly target $200 it it doesn't think it can make a compelling product that's in line with what it stands for at that price.

Apple will do whatever it thinks will increase total profits.
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post #52 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

The samsungs connector actually is the better one as it has a ridge to get better grip on it...

Oh yea the standard 30pin or PDMI that almost every manufacture now uses. I have one on my Asus Slider. Yes Apple has their own but so does everyone else.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #53 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

That's not the definition of "better". That's the definition of "affordable".

So 'affordable' isn't 'better'?

It is to some folks. That's my point.

But you better be in lock-step with Apple on THEIR definition of 'better.' Resistance is futile...

Apple is trying to dictate the market. Which is exactly why Apple threw the hammer at IBM in 1984.

(Kinda like the old saying, "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.")
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post #54 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Apple will do whatever it thinks will increase total profits.

That's not how Apple makes decisions at all. The profits are assumed to come AFTER making a great product. Profits are not the decision driver in designing the products. There is so much evidence of this in Apple's history that has been well documented, it's now silly to even suggest otherwise.
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post #55 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

So 'affordable' isn't 'better'?

It is to some folks. That's my point.

But you better be in lock-step with Apple on THEIR definition of 'better.' Resistance is futile...

Apple is trying to dictate the market. Which is exactly why Apple threw the hammer at IBM in 1984.

(Kinda like the old saying, "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.")

I actually think this is just a good example of Apple really understanding the market they want to go after. They understand the socio-economic market they want, and don't really go outside of that.

Affordable is a vague term the same as better is. To me, the iPad is incredibly affordable - I'm in the fortunate position that $830 is nothing to me. If all I could afford on a tablet was $200, the Amazon Kindle is more affordable, and hence much better for that person.

Apple directly target the market of people like me, and leave other segments of the market alone. I like that model, as opposed to Android, which is trying to target all segments of the market, and ends up often being a lowest common denominator platform.
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post #56 of 109
3/12/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

So 'affordable' isn't 'better'?

It is to some folks. That's my point.

But you better be in lock-step with Apple on THEIR definition of 'better.' Resistance is futile...

Apple is trying to dictate the market. Which is exactly why Apple threw the hammer at IBM in 1984.

(Kinda like the old saying, "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.")

You're erroneously comparing a "better" price point with a "better" quality product. Of course we go for the better price if all other things are equal but that certainly isn't the case between the Kindle and iPad. Then there are aspects that are better AND worse at the same time. iPad's 10" display is better because it's larger but worse because it's larger, depending on you expect it to fit into your life.

"Goodbyeee…"

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post #57 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

That's not how Apple makes decisions at all. The profits are assumed to come AFTER making a great product. Profits are not the decision driver in designing the products. There is so much evidence of this in Apple's history that has been well documented, it's now silly to even suggest otherwise.

It's Zither, what do you expect. His posts are not based on a shred of truth. Apple could be doing so much more if it simply was concerned about profits and marketshare.
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post #58 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post

Remove the branding, and I dare you to discern a Toyota Camry from a Honda Accord or a Hyundai Sonata. They all flipping look the same, but you don't see car manufacturers suing each other, do you?

"What? You mean their car has 4 tires, a steering wheel, and voice activated features TOO?! Get legal on the phone, NOW!!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What a ridiculous, ridiculous analogy. The similarity of those 2 phones is analogous that cars have tires and wheels? How many phones looked like that before the iPhone? Let's discern the similarities in that pic:

- Almost identical shape
- identical number and arrangement of icons (4x4 grid)
- identical concept of a dock
- same gray dock background
- black background
- same concept of dots to symbolize # of screens
- eerily similar icons. ie why did the phone icon need to havr the same green background color, the same handset shape and angle, etc. There's an infinite # of ways to design it.

There wasn't a single phone that looked anywhere near this before the iPhone, never mind the numerous amounts of small and large details that are shamelessly identical, and which could have easily been done countless other ways. An equivalent analogy to your car example would be 'phones have a screen, have a speaker, earpiece, and make calls'. Extending it to include the countless specific similarities in that photo is idiotic. Car manufacturers have been pretty good at making unique designs. That comment of yours seems like a shameless troll, because you can't possibly believe what you said.

On the other hand, if the similarities between the two phones seems as similar as 3 vehicles having tires, then I would suggest that cash907 is ill-qualified to make judgments on Design, especially one where Ive is the theme
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post #59 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:05pm
Apple sets out to make what they believe are "great products" and the success of their visions are the results of the sales. If people like it, they'll buy it and if they don't, they won't. Do the Apple haters really believe that we're all brainwashed into buying an Apple product? How ridiculous is that?

Where were the tablets? Where were the ultrabooks? Where were the multi-touch smartphones? Sure, the competition is catching up but as long as Apple continues to be first to market, they'll do just fine. The rest can continue to make "me too" products, which is exactly what they've been doing for the last decade.

The overall Apple experience is what creates repeat customers and this is where Apple excels. Anyone who puts down an Apple customer and call them brainwashed is just plain ignorant. If they're happy with whatever phone, tablet, or operating system they're using, then be happy with it, period. Personally, I'm happy with what I use and don't care one bit what anyone else uses. The haters should think about that before hating.
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post #60 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

That's not how Apple makes decisions at all. The profits are assumed to come AFTER making a great product. Profits are not the decision driver in designing the products. There is so much evidence of this in Apple's history that has been well documented, it's now silly to even suggest otherwise.

Thank you, well said. ZZZ used to bring that one up regularly when he was ConradJoe. He knows it pisses people off when he sells Apple's motives short. We could change "silly" to "deliberately perverse." He's a fake!
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post #61 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefish86 View Post

Or he got sick of looking at the word "Samsung" on his TV so he cut himself a new bezel using one of the CNC machines in the background

This gets my vote for the most entertaining and least spiteful message in the thread.
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post #62 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

That's not how Apple makes decisions at all. The profits are assumed to come AFTER making a great product. Profits are not the decision driver in designing the products. There is so much evidence of this in Apple's history that has been well documented, it's now silly to even suggest otherwise.

You mistake the strategy for the goal.

The goal is to maximize long-run, total profits.

The strategy is to accomplish that by making great products.
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post #63 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Apple is trying to dictate the market. Which is exactly why Apple threw the hammer at IBM in 1984.

(Kinda like the old saying, "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.")

Paranoid much? I think what you're upset about (which is something in and of itself that you should be concerned about) is that the market has preferred Apple's approach. It's actually vice versa from your suggestion. The "market" is the consumer. It's hard to argue that the "market" has voluntarily chosen to purchase the Apple product. I guess you could fall back on the "marketing" and "blind allegiance" explanation, but the numbers put us quite a bit past that now.

There are plenty of alternatives in each of Apple's product categories - smartphones, tablets, music players, PCs. People are free to purchase a Kindle Fire over an iPad, and some do. I'm pretty sure, other than market demands based on what Apple has shown is possible, Amazon didn't take any instructions from Apple when designing the Kindle Fire.
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post #64 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

It's Zither, what do you expect. His posts are not based on a shred of truth. Apple could be doing so much more if it simply was concerned about profits and marketshare.

If Apple thought that increased marketshare was a path to greater total profits Apple would strive to increase their marketshare.

Do you really think they do things that they believe will result in lowering their total profits? Why would any publicly traded megacorporation do that?
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post #65 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

You mistake the strategy for the goal.

The goal is to maximize long-run, total profits.

The strategy is to accomplish that by making great products.

You do know that your previous posts are still visible, right? Your original assertion was that the maximization of profits drive Apple's product design decisions. The evidence, collected over the years from much documenting of Apple's internal decision making process, is that this is patently false. Apple does not make product design decisions based on the maximization of profits. They make many other profit focused decisions like where to manufacture and how to best source of components, but product design is definitely not in that category.
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post #66 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

But define 'better.'

We think the Mac will sell zillions, but we didnt build the Mac for anybody else. We built it for ourselves. We were the group of people who were going to judge whether it was great or not. We werent going to go out and do market research. We just wanted to build the best thing we could build.

When youre a carpenter making a beautiful chest of drawers, youre not going to use a piece of plywood on the back, even though it faces the wall and nobody will ever see it. Youll know its there, so youre going to use a beautiful piece of wood on the back. For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through.

Steve Jobs said this in an interview in 1997. This is what I think Apple, or Jony if you will, means when they use the word "better".
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post #67 of 109
3/12/12 at 1:58pm
Sir Jony is widely regarded as one of the best designers in world and by all accounts a pretty crazy and passionate guy who any designer would dream to work for. Plus he's English! The queen will be furious if she reads this article and sees that you haven't prefixed his name with Sir.
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post #68 of 109
3/12/12 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

You do know that your previous posts are still visible, right? Your original assertion was that the maximization of profits drive Apple's product design decisions.

Nope, not quite.

The maximization of total profits drives everything that Apple does. Not just design, but everything.
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post #69 of 109
3/12/12 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What a ridiculous, ridiculous analogy. The similarity of those 2 phones is analogous that cars have tires and wheels? How many phones looked like that before the iPhone? Let's discern the similarities in that pic:

- Almost identical shape
- identical number and arrangement of icons (4x4 grid)
- identical concept of a dock
- same gray dock background
- black background
- same concept of dots to symbolize # of screens
- eerily similar icons. ie why did the phone icon need to havr the same green background color, the same handset shape and angle, etc. There's an infinite # of ways to design it.

There wasn't a single phone that looked anywhere near this before the iPhone, never mind the numerous amounts of small and large details that are shamelessly identical, and which could have easily been done countless other ways. An equivalent analogy to your car example would be 'phones have a screen, have a speaker, earpiece, and make calls'. Extending it to include the countless specific similarities in that photo is idiotic. Car manufacturers have been pretty good at making unique designs. That comment of yours seems like a shameless troll, because you can't possibly believe what you said.

I agree the Samsung is a bit of a copy of the iPhone, but lets not give to much credit. My Motorola razr had a 3 x 4 grid of icons as did the Sony I had before that. The shape of the origional iPhone is also square with rounded corners, a shape Steve jobs stated as being the most common shape in the world, so its not that surprising smartphones all end up looking like an iPhone.
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post #70 of 109
3/12/12 at 3:21pm
Does anyone else think Jonny I've must have one of the most chilled out jobs in the world. It seems like he literally designs 2 products a year!!!
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post #71 of 109
3/12/12 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Does anyone else think Jonny I've must have one of the most chilled out jobs in the world. It seems like he literally designs 2 products a year!!!

You can't be serious. Apple has a lot more than two products and their products take years to develop, not to mention they are constantly working on products that will never see the light of day.

But even if it was just one product there is nothing chill or laid back about a product that has excessive attention and concern to detail. In many ways it's easier to put out multiple variations of products that sell in less quantity, have less strict quality controls, and can be altered with a slight change to the injection mold machine.

Didn't Ives spend months in China training robots to fight in underground fighting leagues... or something?

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post #72 of 109
3/12/12 at 3:54pm
I have a few requests for Jony. Can we please have a full size bluetooth keyboard? How about number pads for the macbooks? It is so counter productive to NOT have these. If it offends your visual aesthetics to build a number pad, then how about building it into the touchpad. Can you please build a better mouse. It feels like a light weight sliver of soap. It needs to feel more substantial. Don't tell me to to go buy a third party device. For celebrated designer, there are some serious flaws. They may seem trivial. But from a company and designer that is know for its attention to small details the keyboards and mouse need to be fixed.
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post #73 of 109
3/12/12 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

I have a few requests for Jony. Can we please have a full size bluetooth keyboard? How about number pads for the macbooks? It is so counter productive to NOT have these. If it offends your visual aesthetics to build a number pad, then how about building it into the touchpad. Can you please build a better mouse. It feels like a light weight sliver of soap. It needs to feel more substantial. Don't tell me to to go buy a third party device. For celebrated designer, there are some serious flaws. They may seem trivial. But from a company and designer that is know for its attention to small details the keyboards and mouse need to be fixed.

The mouse is near perfect for me, even if maybe a little on the heavy side because of the batteries. They might be designed for average hands and tactile sense. Not so good for Sumo wrestlers? Hockey players?
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post #74 of 109
3/12/12 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Does anyone else think Jonny I've must have one of the most chilled out jobs in the world. It seems like he literally designs 2 products a year!!!

He says in the original interview that they will work for months on one small detail. You should read it, then get back to us.
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post #75 of 109
3/12/12 at 5:12pm
I love when Jony gives interviews b/c the apple haters come out in droves. He fires 'em up almost as much as Steve did.

What's annoying though is if you get one pro-Apple comment people jump all over it and call the poster a fanboi, sheeple, etc. Yet out of 100 comments 90 of them can be anti-Apple and that's OK. Those people don't have an agenda or bias, they're not brainwashed. No they're completely objective.
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post #76 of 109
3/12/12 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

hmm, well with iOS they should try to get it at least to "good"

but hey they making money... I see it like a nice restaurant you always went to that one day puts hotdogs on the MENU - you just ignore the stupid people who order it.

Seriously, go get a life!
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post #77 of 109
3/12/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post

Remove the branding, and I dare you to discern a Toyota Camry from a Honda Accord or a Hyundai Sonata. They all flipping look the same, but you don't see car manufacturers suing each other, do you?

"What? You mean their car has 4 tires, a steering wheel, and voice activated features TOO?! Get legal on the phone, NOW!!"

I don't know if they sued each other... but they probably could have...

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post #78 of 109
3/12/12 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

no similarity here either ....

Funny how in India you can see a photo of the iPhone with the Samsung logo underneath. I wonder if this is the case in other countries.
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post #79 of 109
3/12/12 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

I have a few requests for Jony. Can we please have a full size bluetooth keyboard? How about number pads for the macbooks? It is so counter productive to NOT have these. If it offends your visual aesthetics to build a number pad, then how about building it into the touchpad. Can you please build a better mouse. It feels like a light weight sliver of soap. It needs to feel more substantial. Don't tell me to to go buy a third party device. For celebrated designer, there are some serious flaws. They may seem trivial. But from a company and designer that is know for its attention to small details the keyboards and mouse need to be fixed.

Quite wrong. Microsoft (following on from IBM who really could not get things right) loves heavy feeling clunkers of keyboards and mice. These feel like some horrible growth under the hand. IBM started the trend of putting more keys on keyboards, but on keyboards, less is actually more. For those who are heavy inputters of numbers, I agree with a numeric keypad, but for most of us it is just a waste of space. I now use a trackpad, which really doesn't have any weight factor at all, so long as it doesn't move around. Less is more.
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post #80 of 109
3/12/12 at 6:25pm
Jony Ive's real comment is that if Apple can't make it better, they don't do it. In other words, unlike most companies that bring out inferior knock-off products in order to share in the profits of a sector, Apple does not work in this blatant commercial way.
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