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Motorola demanded license for all Apple iPhone patents for access to 3G standard

post #1 of 80
Thread Starter 
Motorola Mobility demanded access to Apple's entire patent portfolio in order to gain access to its own patents required to practice industry standards, such as connecting to 3G mobile networks.

Motorola's demands were revealed in documentation by the European Commission, which noted that in late 2011, patent licensing negotiations between the two companies "envisaged a cross-licence possibly to the benefit of all Android OEMs but also with mutual carve-outs."

The discussions, described by Florian Mueller of FOSSPatents, appeared to be based on a request by a German court to at least attempt to reach a settlement.

Mueller described one settlement negotiation between the two companies where "Apple didn't even send any corporate officer," and "no Apple official sat besides its outside counsel," suggesting that the company had no serious interest in negotiating with Motorola under the terms it demanded.

The discussions noted by the EC were made in relation to its cautious approval of Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility. The negotiators "realized that the deal would have to be palatable to Google, which didn't (and still doesn't) own MMI in formal terms but is likely to own it soon and has to consent to any settlement before MMI can enter into it," Mueller noted.

All the tea

A footnote in the EC document added that "according to Apple, Motorola Mobility has insisted that Apple cross-licenses its full non-SEP [standards essential patent] portfolio in exchange for Motorola Mobility's SEPs.

"Apple also argues that its refusal to accede to this demand led Motorola Mobility to sue Apple in an attempt to exclude Apple's products from the market. On the terms of Apple's own argument, Motorola Mobility's allegedly anti-competitive behaviour in this regard well precedes the [Google] merger at issue in the present decision. See, for instance, the e-mail of 2 February 2012 from Apple to the Commission."

While Motorola has indicated that Apple simply refused to properly license its patents, and has won German sales injunctions against certain iOS devices (which have been suspended, allowing products to return to the shelf) and against Apple's iCloud messaging services (which are still in effect, and which Motorola is trying to expand into the US), Apple has appealed the rulings.

Apple stated it appealed "because Motorola repeatedly refuses to license this patent to Apple on reasonable terms, despite having declared it an industry standard patent seven years ago."

Discriminatory licensing to block iPhone sales

In December, Apple filed a new complaint against Motorola, detailing that the company has attempted to revoke its patent license with Qualcomm (which produces the baseband chips that allow iPhone and iPad models to connect to wireless networks) and demand new licensing terms from Apple.

"Motorola’s German lawsuit is in direct breach of a Patent Licensing Agreement between Motorola and Qualcomm. As a Qualcomm customer, Apple is a third-party beneficiary of that contract," the company stated.

"Moreover, under this same contract, Motorola’s rights under the ‘336 and the ‘898 patents are exhausted. Accordingly, Apple brings this suit for breach of contract, declaratory, and injunctive relief, and asks this Court to enjoin Motorola from prosecuting and enforcing its claims against Apple in Germany."

Government scrutiny of Motorola, Google and patent abuse

Both the U.S. Department of Justice and the European Commission have approved Google's $12.5 billion acquisition of Motorola, but they have also voiced concerns that Google will abuse the patents it acquires from Motorola. The DoJ called out Google for being "more ambiguous" than Apple or Microsoft in its commitments to upholding FRAND licensing terms for standards-essential patents.

Last month, European Union Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia announced plans to "use antitrust powers to prevent patents from being used to unfairly control market share, including in ongoing investigations," adding, "I am determined to use antitrust enforcement to prevent the misuse of patent rights to the detriment of a vigorous and accessible market. I have initiated investigations on this issue in several sectors and we will see the results in due time."

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Motorola Mobility demanded access to Apple's entire patent portfolio in order to gain access to its own patents required to practice industry standards, such as connecting to 3G mobile networks.

Motorola's demands were revealed in documentation by the European Commission, which noted that in late 2011, patent licensing negotiations between the two companies "envisaged a cross-licence possibly to the benefit of all Android OEMs but also with mutual carve-outs."

The two bolded statements are mutually exclusive.

Likely the truth is the first casualty of this war.
post #3 of 80
Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #4 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

So they can copy Apple's products.
post #5 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The two bolded statements are mutually exclusive.

Likely the truth is the first casualty of this war.

I read those statements differently. The entire patent portfolio statement is with regards to Motorola getting the licenses to use. The mutual carve-outs are with respect to which of Apple's patents also get licensed to all Android device makers. In other words, Motorola gets it all, and other vendors get only a subset.

Is that how others read it?


Thompson
post #6 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

Especially for something that is FRAND. Samsung is NOT operating in good faith
post #7 of 80
Motorola to Apple: We want access to your entire patent portfolio now and in the future as long as you make 3G devices.

Apple to Motorola: Good luck with that.
post #8 of 80
Just give Motorola/Google all your patents, Apple. Cant we all play nice? Why is Apple always such a bully?
post #9 of 80
There is something highly amusing about all these Chromebook ads here on AI
post #10 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I read those statements differently. The entire patent portfolio statement is with regards to Motorola getting the licenses to use. The mutual carve-outs are with respect to which of Apple's patents also get licensed to all Android device makers. In other words, Motorola gets it all, and other vendors get only a subset.

Is that how others read it?

Read it the exact same way as you.
post #11 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The two bolded statements are mutually exclusive.

Likely the truth is the first casualty of this war.

The two bolded statements were related to two different periods of negotiation. One in November 2011 and the second in February of 2012 (check Foss Patents). It's entirely possible that Motorola changed its demands in that time period. Therefore it's irrelevant if the statements were in fact mutually exclusive, which others are also disagreeing with.

I'm glad that you make sure you're understanding the situation properly before suggesting that Apple is lying.
post #12 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Just give Motorola/Google all your patents, Apple. Cant we all play nice? Why is Apple always such a bully?

Because thats not how the world works.
post #13 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I read those statements differently. The entire patent portfolio statement is with regards to Motorola getting the licenses to use. The mutual carve-outs are with respect to which of Apple's patents also get licensed to all Android device makers. In other words, Motorola gets it all, and other vendors get only a subset.

Is that how others read it?


Thompson

Yes, I believe you're correct.

In reading the document from the EU commission, the "carve-outs" was specifically with respect to the rights Google might have if the MMI buyout was executed. The implication being that even if MMI got rights to some of Apple's patents in a deal, that didn't mean Google would get automatic rights if they bought Motorola. So, Google (and therefore all the Android licensees) wouldn't necessarily get rights to all of the patents that MMI had rights to just because they bought Motorola.
post #14 of 80
Moto goes and develops the patent that runs the digital wireless world, and they get money from EVERYONE who runs a phone or a network. But the condition of that is that they offer it in a fair, non-monopolistic way. This will be rejected again. This is a temper tantrum.

So we see why Google was forced to build up its patents.
post #15 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

Apple hold many software patent, starting with the multi-touch input
post #16 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Apple hold many software patent, starting with the multi-touch input

Ok, but that doesn't explain why they need all of Apple's patents for some FRAND 3G patents. Sounds like Moto's trying to scam Apple.
post #17 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJameson View Post

Ok, but that doesn't explain why they need all of Apple's patents for some FRAND 3G patents. Sounds like Moto's trying to scam Apple.

Motorola doesn't "need" the patents. They just want them. You probably could say that they "need" them to be competitive in the wireless hardware marketplace but so does everyone else that can't have them.
post #18 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

Because thats not how the world works.

pretty sure he was being facetious.
post #19 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

Motorola doesn't "need" the patents. They just want them. You probably could say that they "need" them to be competitive in the wireless hardware marketplace but so does everyone else that can't have them.

That was my point. Moto is trying to scam Apple by abusing its FRAND patents to overreach beyond anything that would be considered fair and reasonable.
post #20 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Just give Motorola/Google all your patents, Apple. Cant we all play nice? Why is Apple always such a bully?

Apples patents are not essential. Moto's are. It is not fair or reasonable to deman access to nonessential patents in exchange for essential ones, especially when that is on top of cash payments

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(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #21 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I read those statements differently. The entire patent portfolio statement is with regards to Motorola getting the licenses to use. The mutual carve-outs are with respect to which of Apple's patents also get licensed to all Android device makers. In other words, Motorola gets it all, and other vendors get only a subset.

Is that how others read it?

Thompson

Yes, that's how I read it.
post #22 of 80
LOL looks like google really think they can just do whatever they like with their newly acquired FRAND patents.
post #23 of 80
Come on DED. So you attribute this story to FOSSPatents but don't provide a link? You basically recap the story here, so a link would be nice. There, I did it for you.
post #24 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

Why? To insulate Google.

Bottom line: I'd laugh uncontrollably at them and everyone of their attorneys, CEO, Chairman and anyone else I could get a hold of, while on the bench, and then fine them for their hubris to the tune of several billion dollars both for wasting the courts time and for this absurd attempt at abuse of power with FRAND patents.
post #25 of 80
I see now my question was flawed. I can see why Moto wants all of Apple's patents the question I should have asked is: How could they possibly think that is ever going to happen?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #26 of 80
So Motorola is basically saying, "Samsung and HTC, you give me x per unit...Apple, you give me x per unit plus access to all your patents.

If that doesn't take the Non-Discriminatory out of FRAND, I don't know what does.
post #27 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Likely the truth is the first casualty of this war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

I'm glad that you make sure you're understanding the situation properly before suggesting that Apple is lying.

Don't bother -- 'cos, he doesn't. He just wanders in, says something random and obfuscatory, roils the waters, and then wanders out.

His standard operating procedure.
post #28 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

pretty sure he was being facetious.

Pretty sure it was a lame attempt...
post #29 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

the question I should have asked is: How could they possibly think that is ever going to happen?

Taking their own press releases too seriously?

And Apple is supposed to be the company who's the master at distorting reality?!?
post #30 of 80
Why doesn't Apple just buy up some FRAND IP and do the same to Android phones? Hell… they could buy up Qualcomm itself which I am sure has some IP in there too.
post #31 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmx View Post

Why doesn't Apple just buy up some FRAND IP and do the same to Android phones? Hell they could buy up Qualcomm itself which I am sure has some IP in there too.

Do what same, attempt to abuse the FRAND power? How does that make them better than everyone else? How does that make it right?

I'd much rather Apple just do everything legally. Let the abusers get caught and have their worlds come crashing down around them.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #32 of 80
Oh dear, Moto are going to get spanked in Europe for this.

There are parallels to Microsoft's behaviour back in the early 2000s. IIRC they told Sony that they wanted access to all of Sony's IP in return for the Windows license. Sony said "you've got to be kidding", and the authorities climbed all over Microsoft's ass.

Here we have a standards essential patent, and Moto doing something very similar.

Hope Google have deep pockets cause the fines will be huge.
post #33 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Hope Google have deep pockets cause the fines will be huge.

Well, they've already wasted 12.5 billion on Motorola, what's another couple billion?

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #34 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why does Moto needs Apple's entire patent portfolio?

Exactly. Doesn't Moto Mobile have its own documents related to its own Patents?
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An Apple man since 1977
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post #35 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I read those statements differently. The entire patent portfolio statement is with regards to Motorola getting the licenses to use. The mutual carve-outs are with respect to which of Apple's patents also get licensed to all Android device makers. In other words, Motorola gets it all, and other vendors get only a subset.

Is that how others read it?

That's how I read it.

What I don't understand is the two mutually exclusive situations we have here.

For one, we're being told that motorola is doing all these things that are patently anti-competitive with their FRAND patents WRT Apple. The other part is that you have to assume that no lawyer could be so dumb as to green light doing something so clearly illegal. I tend to believe we're (the Apple fan public) are not being told the whole story by those experts we tend to quote often. If everything they were saying is really right, these lawsuits over the FRAND patents would be settled in Apple's favor every time before they even went to the jury. I don't get it.
post #36 of 80
Really! I pantent some thing. It then belongs to ME!! Why in the fuck should I share it with some one who is a cry baby because they cant be as creative as ME!! Really this is utterly stupid. Either lead follow or get out of the way. Or maybe get bought out. LOL.
An Apple man since 1977
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An Apple man since 1977
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post #37 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Why? To insulate Google.

Bottom line: I'd laugh uncontrollably at them and everyone of their attorneys, CEO, Chairman and anyone else I could get a hold of, while on the bench, and then fine them for their hubris to the tune of several billion dollars both for wasting the courts time and for this absurd attempt at abuse of power with FRAND patents.

This is what I'm talking about, in the above post. If they were really this ridiculous, they WOULD get laughed out of court and fined to boot. But that's not happening. So what are we missing?
post #38 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Pretty sure it was a lame attempt...

I think the rest of us all saw it pretty clearly
post #39 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

So they can copy Apple's products.

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post #40 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

This is what I'm talking about, in the above post. If they were really this ridiculous, they WOULD get laughed out of court and fined to boot. But that's not happening. So what are we missing?

Clearly what you're missing is an understanding of how court works.

Nothing gets literally laughed out of court. Both sides get an opportunity to present their side - no matter how weak the argument is. (There is an exception that one side can get summary judgment if there are absolutely no matters of fact to be decided, but that's nearly unheard of in an intellectual property case).
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