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FaceTime on Apple's new iPad not allowed over LTE

post #1 of 83
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A new report has confirmed that Apple's third-generation iPad will not be allowed to make FaceTime calls on an LTE network.

The Verge performed some testing late Wednesday and discovered that the new iPad will need to connect to a Wi-Fi network to use FaceTime. Though the news hardly comes as a surprise, since Apple's 3G-enabled iOS devices are unable to use FaceTime over 3G, it does put to rest questions about whether the added download speeds from LTE might open up the feature for 4G cellular networks.

Report author Dieter Bohn found the LTE FaceTime restriction to be "doubly frustrating" because Verion LTE iPads can generate Personal Hotspot Wi-Fi networks that would presumably allow other iOS devices to make FaceTime calls via the same LTE connection.

Late Apple co-founder Steve Jobs unveiled FaceTime alongside the iPhone 4 in 2010. The video calling service launched as , but Jobs promised that Apple would "work a little bit with the cellular providers" in hopes of bringing it to mobile networks.




Early reviews of the iPad show that LTE service on the device is significantly faster than previous-generation 3G networking. All Things D journalist Walt Mossberg said he averaged download speeds of 17 megabits per second on Verizon, while a colleague averaged 12 mbps on AT&T's network. The New York Times' David Pogue tested the iPad in three cities and got speeds ranging from 6 to 29 mbps.

The new iPad goes on sale at 8 a.m. local time in 10 countries on Friday. The device will be available in the U.S., Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland and the U.K, as well as Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.






[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


Report author Dieter Bohn found the LTE FaceTime restriction to be "doubly frustrating" because Verion LTE iPads can generate Personal Hotspot Wi-Fi networks that would presumably allow other iOS devices to make FaceTime calls via the same LTE connection.

Can anyone confirm if this is currently possible with an iPad 2 tethered with an iPhone?

I thought the distinctive tethering icon means apple devices treat tethered wifi connections differently to vanilla wifi.
post #3 of 83
What is it? Is LTE so new that they don't want the Face Time hogging the LTE data network? Is the iPad "3" user on Facetime such a hog they wanted you to switch to 3G? IS it possible to switch to 3G on the new iPad?

The Picture above shows a man who is upset over this and is actually trying not to use his new iPad for a Frisbee.
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post #4 of 83
FaceTime works great over 3G. I use it all the time on my jailbroken iPhone.
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post #5 of 83
I hate how Apple keeps imposing these unnecessary limitations. It should be up to the user to decide if his or her connection is good enough and data plan can handle the traffic.
post #6 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasakka View Post

I hate how Apple keeps imposing these unnecessary limitations. It should be up to the user to decide if his or her connection is good enough and data plan can handle the traffic.

You are making two assumptions heres:

1) Apple imposed it.

2) It's unnecessary.

Neither of those are really clear at this point. Sure, they both might be true. Maybe Apple just wants to piss you, personally, off. Or, possibly, there's a reason it is this way?
post #7 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasakka View Post

I hate how Apple keeps imposing these unnecessary limitations. It should be up to the user to decide if his or her connection is good enough and data plan can handle the traffic.

The carriers impose these limitations, not Apple.
post #8 of 83
so many guys complaining about no 5mp front cam and no facetime over LTE...

imagine hundreds (if not thousands) of people jamming up one LTE tower...

there's no way the carriers would allow it.
post #9 of 83
If I purchase an unlimited plan, why is it being throttled?

Why is it when I send a video text, it's pixelated to the point it's unrecognizable? But I can watch Hulu Plus all day over 3G and it looks great.

Why isn't AT&T allowing the hotspot feature at launch?

If I pay for a certain amount of minutes, why does AT&T care if I spend them tethering?

Why can't I FaceTime over LTE? Because of the integrity of the network?
post #10 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

Can anyone confirm if this is currently possible with an iPad 2 tethered with an iPhone?

I thought the distinctive tethering icon means apple devices treat tethered wifi connections differently to vanilla wifi.

Good question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

FaceTime works great over 3G. I use it all the time on my jailbroken iPhone.

But how would that affect the network if all devices were allowed to have realtime 2-way QoS A/V streams? Things get hairier when you scale up, especially when you scale up from a fraction of a fraction of a percentage to 100% at once. If you can't do it in stages then you better be damn sure it can handle the load when you can or you end up, in this case, making the app/device look bad and the negatively affect everyone on that tower/network.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

What is it? Is LTE so new that they don't want the Face Time hogging the LTE data network? Is the iPad "3" user on Facetime such a hog they wanted you to switch to 3G? IS it possible to switch to 3G on the new iPad?

Quite the opposite. Verizon has already felt the crunch of the iPhone on their 3G network that by the time the iPhone 4S was coming out they were offering permanent double data for the same price for anyone that would sign up for a 4G-capable phone. Right now LTE is wide open.

I wouldn't have expected Apple would launch cellular FaceTime with the iPad first. While it could allow for a certain level of testing before releasing in the 6th gen iPhone it even if it failed miserably people would still expect, and even if it wasn't an issue it would not be a clue as to what would happen when the more popular device that is all cellular connected and connected when you leave the store.

I expect this is coming but I would expect it with iOS 6.0 and next iPhone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kasakka View Post

I hate how Apple keeps imposing these unnecessary limitations. It should be up to the user to decide if his or her connection is good enough and data plan can handle the traffic.

Sure, let's not let a company decide what's best for their products, let's socialize all companies so it's up to the people to decide what is included.

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post #11 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

If I purchase an unlimited plan, why is it being throttled?

To avoid individual customers from degrading the network to the point that other customers begin to cancel their service.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Why isn't AT&T allowing the hotspot feature at launch?

They don't want to give a service away for free that they can otherwise charge for. They figure they have clout because of their larger network compared to Verizon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

If I pay for a certain amount of minutes, why does AT&T care if I spend them tethering?

Because you have already paid for those minutes. They want to sell you something else. Also FaceTime utilises a data connection rather than a phone conversation connection.

We had to deal with the same kind of "brilliant" CEO thinking when Sol Trujillo was at the helm of Telstra. Boy wasn't the Australian public glad to see that revolving door kick him up the ass on the way out of the country.
post #12 of 83
edit: Pipped by Dunks.

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post #13 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

If I purchase an unlimited plan, why is it being throttled?

Because "unlimited" is a stupid marketing word that doesn't translate to anything.

Did you think AT&T's network doesn't have a limited capacity?

Laws of physics: they do. So, how would one have "unlimited speed" then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Why is it when I send a video text, it's pixelated to the point it's unrecognizable? But I can watch Hulu Plus all day over 3G and it looks great.

Because, errr, Video text is compressed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Why isn't AT&T allowing the hotspot feature at launch?.

finite resources?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

If I pay for a certain amount of minutes, why does AT&T care if I spend them tethering?

Because of finite capacity/resources? Tethering means more load. Their infrastructure doesn't scale proportionally to the usage, so that everyone can use it to the max and still be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Why can't I FaceTime over LTE? Because of the integrity of the network?

Yes.
post #14 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

I thought the distinctive tethering icon means apple devices treat tethered wifi connections differently to vanilla wifi.

If there is a difference, they forgot to add one more restriction. A few months ago I was in the UK for a holiday with family, and had my sisters iPhone tethered to mine (I have a better data plan for going abroad).
So when she plugged in her phone at night it decided to go ahead and make an iCloud backup on the 'WiFi' network... Expensive mistake!
post #15 of 83
Well that's a bit silly isn't it... we finally get Cellular networks the speed of Wi-Fi and they don't allow you to use FaceTime. It just goes to show the reason it was not allowed on 3G was never about bandwidth, it was about keeping the carriers happy.
post #16 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Well that's a bit silly isn't it... we finally get Cellular networks the speed of Wi-Fi and they don't allow you to use FaceTime. It just goes to show the reason it was not allowed on 3G was never about bandwidth, it was about keeping the carriers happy.

Bingo! Based on this, Facetime's wifi only limitation wasn't Apple based, it was carrier imposed.
post #17 of 83
While this is all well and good that Apple see fit to be mommy and daddy regarding my data usage in the US, I happen to be in Europe where they actually encourage data usage. Tethering is allowed/encouraged and Skype runs freely on the networks here. Apple needs to look at Geographical locations and decide rather than using the "one size fits all" US model. Sorry that US operators are into screwing their customers. It's not the case where I'm at, nor in other parts of Europe.
post #18 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Well that's a bit silly isn't it... we finally get Cellular networks the speed of Wi-Fi and they don't allow you to use FaceTime. It just goes to show the reason it was not allowed on 3G was never about bandwidth, it was about keeping the carriers happy.

1) I don't think we can conclude it wasn't bandwidth-based back in 2010 when FaceTime was introduced since the 3G HW in the iPhone 4 and the cellular networks at the time could handle the load of a single device. The bandwidth issue could come from multiple devices, or at least a bottleneck of processing that much QoS data.

2) The same with 3G applies to 4G. The extra speed means nothing if that is choked off, but as previously noted I don't think that would happen nor is it germane as FaceTime carrier updates probably wouldn't get announced until a major iOS or iPhone update.

3) It's not just about the carriers being happy, but it's about us being happy with the carrier. Make a few customers happy at first for a feature or make every one unhappy because even basic network access slows to a crawl. Would that happen? I have no idea without looking at their infrastructure, but they have had 18 months to prepare.

4) It's not about it technically being to get a 2-way video chat with a jailbroken or 3rd-party service as those will not as simple or as used as Apple's default service, especially when it goes live. For example, even Siri, which is a lot less data to sent and received, had a lot of problems its first week and that was only with new iPhone 4S. Now that was the server-side processing, not the data network, but the result of an overload is the same: an unhappy customer.

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post #19 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Ferrari View Post

Bingo! Based on this, Facetime's wifi only limitation wasn't Apple based, it was carrier imposed.

So the carriers are writing iOS are they? Or do you mean they requested Apple to nobble their products? If it is that latter then it is not carrier imposed, it is Apple enforcing the limitation.

The trouble with Apple imposing such restrictions is that their devices are sold world-wide. Carriers in other countries, perhaps Japan and South Korea, might well have the capacity to allow these features to operate, but with Apple universally imposing such restrictions because of US carriers requests, users in such countries are in effect being penalised by the collusion that occurs in the US.
post #20 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

4) It's not about it technically being to get a 2-way video chat with a jailbroken or 3rd-party service as those will not as simple or as used as Apple's default service, especially when it goes live. For example, even Siri, which is a lot less data to sent and received, had a lot of problems its first week and that was only with new iPhone 4S. Now that was the server-side processing, not the data network, but the result of an overload is the same: an unhappy customer.

But Europe has had video chatting for a while. While it may have been limited to local countries it was used and encouraged by the operators. I'm not sure but again, Apple should let the users decide or at least let the country operators decide. A blanket ban of 3G or LTE FaceTime will guarantee that it will stay a niche idea and nothing more.
post #21 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

So the carriers are writing iOS are they? Or do you mean they requested Apple to nobble their products? If it is that latter then it is not carrier imposed, it is Apple enforcing the limitation.

Let's go with the simplest answer that was given by Steve Jobs back in 2010 and then build up to the real answer from there. Jobs said they had to work with the carriers and it wouldn't be ready in 2010. What jobs was saying is :It isn't included because it would have made FaceTime look bad thereby making Apple look bad.


Quote:
The trouble with Apple imposing such restrictions is that their devices are sold world-wide. Carriers in other countries, perhaps Japan and South Korea, might well have the capacity to allow these features to operate, but with Apple universally imposing such restrictions because of US carriers requests, users in such countries are in effect being penalised by the collusion that occurs in the US.

Sure, but that happens in business. In business you can't treat everyone an individual market. Last Last year Verizon iPhone 4 buyers got a phone that considerably less talk time (2G) than competing phones because Apple used a Qualcomm Gobi chip that was only set for CDMA/CDMA2000. Could this have cost them some business for those that were looking specifically at this feature? Sure, but it prepared them for making the iPhone 4S and now the iPad 3 better cellular devices and probably has shrunk their costs down in the process. Not exactly a bad long term move. That's how companies work. If Apple does make a huge contingency for a carrier it'll probably be for China Mobile's GSM/TD-SCDMA/TD-LTE network.

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post #22 of 83
Is LTE tethering allowed?
post #23 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

But Europe has had video chatting for a while. While it may have been limited to local countries it was used and encouraged by the operators. I'm not sure but again, Apple should let the users decide or at least let the country operators decide. A blanket ban of 3G or LTE FaceTime will guarantee that it will stay a niche idea and nothing more.

The US is not socialist country, as you are well aware, so the people don't control what features are added. The question one should be asking is: why isn't Apple adding this feature that could easy be enabled and would seemingly strengthen their iPhone dominance?

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post #24 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Is LTE tethering allowed?

On Verizon it is. AT&T has no tethering plan at this time but word is they are working on it... surely in response to Verizon. I'm not sure if Canada's carriers allow tethering on LTE or at all with the iPad.


PS: Are you Finnish?

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post #25 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The US is not socialist country, as you are well aware, so the people don't control what features are added. The question one should be asking is: why isn't Apple adding this feature that could easy be enabled and would seemingly strengthen their iPhone dominance?

Agreed, and I am sure the question has been asked a million times with Apple choosing not to answer a million times. While I initially liked FaceTime because of its superior quality, I use Skype because it works over 3G which is the point in the first place. Again, Apple might decide not to implement it in the US, fine and dandy, but other countries do not need their hand held by Apple in regards to data usage. Just a thought.
post #26 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Agreed, and I am sure the question has been asked a million times with Apple choosing not to answer a million times. While I initially liked FaceTime because of its superior quality, I use Skype because it works over 3G which is the point in the first place. Again, Apple might decide not to implement it in the US, fine and dandy, but other countries do not need their hand held by Apple in regards to data usage. Just a thought.

Apple is a US company. The US is Apple's largest single market and will likely be so until China can overtake it. The needs of a few small countries aren't going to come first with a feature they can market. As you pointed out to me people were furious that Apple included the bands for the US and Canada LTE but not for Europe even though they clearly state that the countries and carriers for which LTE will work. Imagine if they gave Finland FaceTime over 3G (and above) but not the US. The LTE thing requires HW, this is just a line or two of code. Bottom line: There are other reasons beyond our desires that need to be considered.

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post #27 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

Can anyone confirm if this is currently possible with an iPad 2 tethered with an iPhone?

I thought the distinctive tethering icon means apple devices treat tethered wifi connections differently to vanilla wifi.

Confirmed here in Australia.

I just tethered my iPad 2 to my iPhone 4S and was able to make a FaceTime call.
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post #28 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Apple is a US company. The US is Apple's largest single market and will likely be so until China can overtake it. The needs of a few small countries aren't going to come first with a feature they can market. As you pointed out to me people were furious that Apple included the bands for the US and Canada LTE but not for Europe even though they clearly state that the countries and carriers for which LTE will work. Imagine if they gave Finland FaceTime over 3G (and above) but not the US. The LTE thing requires HW, this is just a line or two of code. Bottom line: There are other reasons beyond our desires that need to be considered.

Nope, I'm not Finnish. Just an American working here...

Combined the rest of the world is larger than the US and globally Apple is blocking a proposed feature because of only one country. The LTE debacle is the product of slow minds who happen not to read the specs of the product. DC-HSPA+ works pretty fast here and in some cases can rival current US LTE speeds so in a way it is a non-issue. However the FT is something all together different. If Skype and a few other apps can function over 3G, I know for sure that FT can. In this instance Apple is "punishing" (wrong word) the world because US networks can't handle it.
post #29 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A new report has confirmed that Apple's third-generation iPad will not be allowed to make FaceTime calls on an LTE network.

post #30 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Is LTE tethering allowed?

That's interesting, there's no easy way to tether a Mac to iPad.

Verizon says they're doing it:
http://appadvice.com/appnn/2012/03/v...pad-data-plans

For low, low prices for large, large data.

Oh, oops. Make that high prices for measly data.
post #31 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

That's interesting, there's no easy way to tether a Mac to iPad.

Verizon says they're doing it:
http://appadvice.com/appnn/2012/03/v...pad-data-plans

Not for another twenty-four hours, anyway.
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post #32 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

If Skype and a few other apps can function over 3G, I know for sure that FT can. In this instance Apple is "punishing" (wrong word) the world because US networks can't handle it.

How many Skype customers are there in the US that have it installed on cellphones? Once FaceTime is active on iPhones and iPads with WiFi+3G/4G then every single device will be a free iCloud account away from being FaceTime customers. I assume the majority have iCloud accounts based on Apple's statement of the uptake. So the issue isn't can 'a' cellular device connect to FaceTime and work, it's can a % or x-many cellular devices connect to FaceTime and not cause a network issue?

As perviously noted I think it will be okay, but that's just a guess. Maybe Apple had to wait for LTE to be ready in order to protect itself. If that's the case then we shouldn't have expected it as Apple doesn't like to change the iPad OS anymore than it has to outside a major iOS update. That means because we didn't get it with iOS 5 and iPhone 4S that iOS 6 and the next iPhone would be the earliest to expect it which makes this entire thread moot.

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post #33 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) I don't think we can conclude it wasn't bandwidth-based back in 2010 when FaceTime was introduced since the 3G HW in the iPhone 4 and the cellular networks at the time could handle the load of a single device. The bandwidth issue could come from multiple devices, or at least a bottleneck of processing that much QoS data.

2) The same with 3G applies to 4G. The extra speed means nothing if that is choked off, but as previously noted I don't think that would happen nor is it germane as FaceTime carrier updates probably wouldn't get announced until a major iOS or iPhone update.

3) It's not just about the carriers being happy, but it's about us being happy with the carrier. Make a few customers happy at first for a feature or make every one unhappy because even basic network access slows to a crawl. Would that happen? I have no idea without looking at their infrastructure, but they have had 18 months to prepare.

4) It's not about it technically being to get a 2-way video chat with a jailbroken or 3rd-party service as those will not as simple or as used as Apple's default service, especially when it goes live. For example, even Siri, which is a lot less data to sent and received, had a lot of problems its first week and that was only with new iPhone 4S. Now that was the server-side processing, not the data network, but the result of an overload is the same: an unhappy customer.

I don't think there would be network overload. Video calling is one of those ideas that looks cool in the movies but people don't actually want to use it day to day. It's too formal. No one wants to put their makeup and their smile on when they can just call or text.

For regular communications (or really anything you have to do over and over), speed and convenience becomes the most important thing. More important than media fidelity.

Where convenience is not so important is when it's a special occasion or once off, such as showing the new baby to Grandma, or showing someone the beautiful sunset you're seeing. But once-offs are not going to overload the network.
post #34 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

How many Skype customers are there in the US that have it installed on cellphones? Once FaceTime is active on iPhones and iPads with WiFi+3G/4G then every single device will be a free iCloud account away from being FaceTime customers

Skype is the Apple of video calls : it just works. I for once have never ever used FT on my iPad 3G but Skyped quite a lot, even over 3G networks. Sure the video quality is not as good as what you get from FT (yes I did test it). But as I want my vcs to work, I take the workhorse that gets the job done.

Skype
post #35 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A new report has confirmed that Apple's third-generation iPad will not be allowed to make FaceTime calls on an LTE network.
...

Not an issue at all: few will notice, fewer will complain, none will refrain from buying.
post #36 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Apple is a US company. The US is Apple's largest single market and will likely be so until China can overtake it. The needs of a few small countries aren't going to come first with a feature they can market.

A few small countries?

Firstly, what about countries like Germany - which has 80 million people? Nearly a third of the population of the US - I wouldn't exactly call that 'small'.

Secondly, there are a lot more than a 'few' countries in Europe and the rest of the world with decent 3G service. Try 'dozens' and you're getting there.

It's stupid that a limitation which is entirely about US carriers' disproportionate market power is imposed on the rest of the world.
post #37 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

A few small countries?

Firstly, what about countries like Germany - which has 80 million people? Nearly a third of the population of the US - I wouldn't exactly call that 'small'.

Secondly, there are a lot more than a 'few' countries in Europe and the rest of the world with decent 3G service. Try 'dozens' and you're getting there.

Since this thread is about FaceTime over LTE I am referring to the few small countries that could handle the iPad's LTE bands. Clearly I wasn't referring to 3G or that would be, what, nearly 200 countries and 7.75 billion people? I only know of one official country outside the US but I rounded up to include a spattering of unknown networks. Again, they simply won't come before the US, especially not for a feature they can market.

Quote:
It's stupid that a limitation which is entirely about US carriers' disproportionate market power is imposed on the rest of the world.[

It's erroneous to conclude that it's only because of the US. Many countries have an inferior cellular network compared to the US so you can't take the best in a list and say that all other nations should adapt instantly. Sometimes, the weakest link does hold back the rest. That's business. That's life. I don't care for Android development being stunted by the poor way in which it's licensed and updated by Google but it's not my place to demand Google should control their store to reduce malware and that vendors should have updates tested and released right away.

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post #38 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Good question.



But how would that affect the network if all devices were allowed to have realtime 2-way QoS A/V streams? Things get hairier when you scale up, especially when you scale up from a fraction of a fraction of a percentage to 100% at once. If you can't do it in stages then you better be damn sure it can handle the load when you can or you end up, in this case, making the app/device look bad and the negatively affect everyone on that tower/network.



Quite the opposite. Verizon has already felt the crunch of the iPhone on their 3G network that by the time the iPhone 4S was coming out they were offering permanent double data for the same price for anyone that would sign up for a 4G-capable phone. Right now LTE is wide open.

I wouldn't have expected Apple would launch cellular FaceTime with the iPad first. While it could allow for a certain level of testing before releasing in the 6th gen iPhone it even if it failed miserably people would still expect, and even if it wasn't an issue it would not be a clue as to what would happen when the more popular device that is all cellular connected and connected when you leave the store.

I expect this is coming but I would expect it with iOS 6.0 and next iPhone.



Sure, let's not let a company decide what's best for their products, let's socialize all companies so it's up to the people to decide what is included.

All people are doing nothing but facetiming with each other all day huh? not to mention the fact that iPad 3 is only out of the gates today.

All bullshit all the time.

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post #39 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasakka View Post

I hate how Apple keeps imposing these unnecessary limitations. It should be up to the user to decide if his or her connection is good enough and data plan can handle the traffic.

This is not Apple - it's a carrier restriction.
post #40 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

All people are doing nothing but facetiming with each other all day huh? not to mention the fact that iPad 3 is only out of the gates today.

All bullshit all the time.

Two fallacious statements and an insult without a single point made. Impressive in its own way.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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