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Apple's calls for repatriation tax holiday gain no traction with White House - Page 3

post #81 of 123
3/20/12 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrangerFX View Post

I propose a simple deal: Congress should allow Apple to repatriate as much money as they want with zero taxes as long as every dollar is used to open new factories in the USA and hire American workers. They can use the money to purchase equipment such as robotic assembly lines, solar power plants, additional server farms and so on but it must all be located here in the USA even if the gear is purchased overseas.

Thank god you're not in charge of economic policy. I guess blatant protectionism isn't shameful as it used to be. Sad. Trade lifts all parties. A policy of forcing anyone or company to buy something instead of something else causes FAR worse problems than any amount of lost tax revenue could ever. Welcome to communist USSR.
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post #82 of 123
3/20/12 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

And sadly that $3,000,000,000 wouldn't dent the $1.5 trillion dollar deficit.

Worse - since the government has shown it only can stand to spend more than it brings in, bringing in more would almost certainly just result in additional spending that's even greater than the additional income.

Starve the beast, that's the only way to shrink it.
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post #83 of 123
3/20/12 at 5:25pm
the problem is the polititions dont really seem to run things any more...our congress critters and to a large extent presidents in the past 12 years are all so interested in advancing their own dumbass agendas at any cost that it has ceased being a debate, and become a WWE style scripted back and forth that gets everyone worked up and nothing done.

Both sides are right and wrong on some points, that is true of any opinion - for example I am a Libertarian, but I realize that you cant eliminate the welfare state nor should you - you dont want families with kids and such out on the street a week or two after a job loss for example.

heres my take - yes taxes are too high, too complex and have way too many loopholes, government spending is way too high, and should be cut drastically


heres my stupid notion:
-on the income side-
- keep the progressive income tax, but remove all credits and deductions except charitible giving. "income"would now include capitol gains and money from real work - income tax rate of 5% on all income , 10% on every dollar over 30000/yr, and 30% on any dollar over 1 million.

- Flat corprate tax rate of 20% on profit, no exceptions, no deductions.

- stop using the tax code to influence behavior, let the market do that.

on the spending side

- cut the militery, get us out of the wars, get our guys out of germany, japan and such too
- cut the tsa budget to pre 9/11 levels, we dont need a bunch of high school dropout duchebags feeling us up at the airports. It wouldn't have stopped 9/11 as the weapons they brought on were legal at the time and the cockpit doors were not secured.
- really fix education, we spend more on education per student than anyone in the world and have terrible outcomes, more money isnt the answer, we need to use what we have smarter, and in the process learn how to teach our kids better and use less resources to do so.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #84 of 123
3/20/12 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

And sadly that $3,000,000,000 wouldn't dent the $1.5 trillion dollar deficit.


what is $1.5 trillion dollar deficit?

2011 US trade deficit $558 billion

US National Debt $15+ trillion
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post #85 of 123
3/20/12 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie View Post

UH, yeah ya think! And I love Apple products but give me an f'ing break.

Yeah they don't have enough. ONly 98 Billion in CASH. Meanwhile people are out of work and loosing their houses...

I could not agree more. Too bad the entire Republican party thinks it should all be tax free and corporate taxes should be zero. Meanwhile none of these big companies pays taxes anyways. What a joke, and it ain't funny...

BS..."the entire Republican party" does not take the position that corporate taxes should be zero.

Once again, brainwashed corporation-hating liberals have to resort to lies to prop up support for their totalitarian command/control ideology.

Oh...and wasn't it under Obama's administration that GE paid zero taxes?

...and received government subsidies for these dubious "green economy" initiatives?
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post #86 of 123
3/20/12 at 6:00pm
If you give tax breaks for repatriation, it offers an incentive for companies to move operations overseas as they pay lower taxes abroad and profits are returned without penalty. This is unfair for companies who don't move operations overseas and pay higher tax rates.

Therefore the repatriation tax must exist.

Evidence suggests that during tax breaks, major corporations do not invest in job creation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYXF9zp5AY4

Therefore the repatriation tax must be high.

Taxes are always unfair however as they take money from people who have earned it to give it to people who largely have not.

It seems to me the fairest option that benefits both govenrment and corporation would be to tie taxation with job creation. Instead of companies being forced to pay a portion of the earnings and receive nothing in return, they would instead have to commit to creating sustained jobs (audited independently) in their own country and business over a period of time.

The government gets their job creation and the corporation makes money by having a stronger workforce. Also, because the commitment would be multi-year, it's equivalent to a lower immediate tax rate e.g commit $20b to sustaining 100,000 new jobs over a 10 year period with salaries in the region of $30,000-50,000. Year 1 commitment is under $5b (<8% tax).

These jobs don't have to be salaried employees but funds for iOS developers or internal/external R&D funds controlled by the company.
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post #87 of 123
3/20/12 at 6:28pm
Ya know, all this criticism of Apple and how they choose to deal with their pile of cash is just plain stupid.

And fairly myopic.

Apple's dilemma (wow, can it be called that?) is a GOOD problem to have.

Apple is a US company...that has to deal with the IRS tax code (that's the dilemma).

Would anyone levy the same criticism if, say, Apple was based in Thailand?

   I am long on my shares of AAPL at $37.00

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   I am long on my shares of AAPL at $37.00

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post #88 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sy1492 View Post

The current issue here is the HIGH tax rate. Lowing the tax rate on foreign money will encourage domestic investments once companies like Apple bring back profits from overseas.

Two choices:
$0 of the $60,000,000,000 with current tax rate or
$x of the $60,000,000,000 with a lower tax rate

That $x multiplies when it's injected in this nation's economy.

.

Two choices:
Reward tax cheats
Don't reward tax cheats
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post #89 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Obama wants to rob Apple to pay down his $5 trillion increase in the deficit- no surprise here. Carry on.
One term president- so said Steve Jobs.

Right... Corporations should get a free ride and accumulate billions by using the commons paid for by everyone else. Give me a break. I love Apple, but they're showing their free lunch corporatism which is no surprise.
Without a healthy, educated workforce, laws to protect their IP, roads to deliver their products, etc etc, there would be no Apple.
I dnt expect them to behave differently, but I expect and applaud our President for telling them to shove it and start carrying their weight for the benefits they get.
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post #90 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienpresence View Post

Two choices:
Reward tax cheats
Don't reward tax cheats

Nobody's cheating anything. It's a question of time. Who has more time, Apple or Obama? Apple or your congressman?

Guess what... it's Apple. The conclusion to this fight is already written. It's just a matter of when. Politicians can't be patient. The system is set up against that.
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post #91 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Right... Corporations should get a free ride and accumulate billions by using the commons paid for by everyone else. Give me a break. I love Apple, but they're showing their free lunch corporatism which is no surprise.
Without a healthy, educated workforce, laws to protect their IP, roads to deliver their products, etc etc, there would be no Apple.

Apple has already paid taxes in accordance with the countries whose resources they used to produce the income. America just wants more for doing nothing. Apple paid taxes to America for the money earned here. The USA wants them to pay taxes on money earned using Japan's roads, water and air. The USA is the only country on earth that tries this BS.
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post #92 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alann View Post

Apple made a LOT of money exporting jobs and manufacturing overseas. It seems fair that some of that money should be taxed on its way back to the U.S.

It's not that simple. Apple hasn't exported jobs if they didn't exist in US in the first place. We don't have skilled engineers to design and manage production. And we sure don't have enough unskilled labor for the grunt work. Who wants to screw batteries into iPhones 5000 times each day? Nobody in the US is going to take that job. Those positions would have to be filled by robots. Which is still a challenge. Thus, those 100K's jobs in china would equate to only 1000's in the US. Yet, those would be high paying jobs good for America. However, we don't have people with the required engineering skills to run the factories and program/supervise the robots, manage inbound supply chain, etc.

Operated-owned factories aren't efficient nor flexible. Given Apple's product cycle and demand fluctuations, it's near impossible to manage capacity utilization. It would be constant fight against having too much or too little labor & factory equipment. Nearly all CE products are assembled by contract manufacturers, 40% CE products come from Foxconn. It's manufacturing on demand. Only pay when needed, and can easily adjust volume. Samsung, Sony, Toshiba, all the major CE's use Foxconn for assembly because it's the most efficient solution.

The idea that Apple has moved jobs overseas is a farce. The idea that Apple should bring those jobs to US is laughable. It's not even a issue of higher wages. Apple does't have the needed labor, expertise, geographic location, factories in the US. Even then, Apple wouldn't have economies of scale and flexibility that contract manufacturer affords.

Saying Apple makes a lot of money from overseas manufacturing is like saying Apple has made a lot of money from using FedEx. Imagine if FDX were a Chinese firm, should Apple be expected to buy its own planes/trucks and distribute in-house so that those jobs are filled by Americans? Imagine what that would look like on launch day.
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post #93 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Obama wants to rob Apple to pay down his $5 trillion increase in the deficit- no surprise here. Carry on.
One term president- so said Steve Jobs.

Was George Bush "robbing" you when you were made to pay income taxes during his administration? How is it that only Democratic presidents are accused of theft via taxation??
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post #94 of 123
3/20/12 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruceedits View Post

You got that right! Steve Jobs tells Obama the manufacturing jobs are NEVER coming back to the US. Now the company wants their money made overseas with little to no taxation. Can you say chutzpa?

Why should the US government get tax dollars on foreign income, it is not like the US government helped Apple earn ANY of the money?
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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post #95 of 123
3/20/12 at 8:09pm
honestly...if the money was earned overseas and all income from overseas production I do not see why they should be taxed to bring it here...if I go work in England for a month and come back to the US do I have to pay a tax? (honest question as I never worked overseas)

Or at least if they are requiring a tax to be paid it should be significantly less than the 35% (if I'm reading it correctly) that they're asking for.

I don't see how money earned and taxed in country A should be taxed again in country B...but being that I am unversed in these sort of dealings my opinion isn't worth a damn, but still...I say no tax, or no default tax rate at the very least based on what I know.
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post #96 of 123
3/20/12 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Apple should import the iPads, iPhones etc to the US partially completed (mostly completed) as raw materials/parts. Then set up a factory in the US to polish the glass, etch the name and FCC id info, put the cord and the charger in the packaging and call it made in USA. Their foreign subsidiaries have to buy the products from the US and the money stays here.

This would at least double shipping costs. Apple would have to pay taxes in the US on every product made and then pay foreign taxes on the profits made selling them in the foreign country. The money would still stay overseas because Apple would have to still pay taxes to bring the money home.

Your idea / plan would add to Apple's costs and substantially reduced their profits. Tell me again why they should do this?
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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post #97 of 123
3/20/12 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

No, Bruce, that's not how it works for Toyota or basically all other countries' multinational companies. For nearly all the rest of the world profits are taxed in the country they are earned and that's all. The US on the other hand wants to take money from already taxed profits earned in other countries. Even European governments with huge social systems that require crazy amounts of tax dollars to prop up don't try to steal money their nation's companies on the profits those companies earn from international business.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know. Can you or anyone post some links? Need some light reading...

For example BMW, they import engines etc into SC. Do they put profit on the imported parts(engine etc); thus really no US profit from assembly of components and sale is done in US(to avoid our outrageous corporate tax rates).... The profit is back in Germany and they pay no tax here? Or do they pay the horrible tax rate here, and not pay tax there?
Or...(which is what I understand really happens)... Do they just pay or deduct the difference in rates between the countries?

Really, I don't know, any international finance guys in the house?
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
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post #98 of 123
3/20/12 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Obama wants to rob Apple to pay down his $5 trillion increase in the deficit- no surprise here. Carry on.
One term president- so said Steve Jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

Was George Bush "robbing" you when you were made to pay income taxes during his administration? How is it that only Democratic presidents are accused of theft via taxation??

Because Republicans never talk about raising people's taxes which Obama and the Dems have basically guaranteed with the sunset of the Bush tax rates this year. Your vote is powerful.
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post #99 of 123
3/20/12 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

If the government caves into the demands of the business community, it isnt going to help with the overall economy as a whole.

This will only encourage companies to send jobs or manufacturing plants OUTSIDE of the US in anticipation of future tax breaks from Congress to take advantage of.

Wrong. The opposite. Taxing income earned abroad when repatriated encourages companies to stockpile income outside the US, and when the firm wants to build a call support center, or R&D facility, data center etc they will be incentivized to use the funds held outside the US, which means it will be spent outside the US.

The government demands that firms must pay to bring money back, then they will just keep hoarding it abroad. The government will receive $0. Agreeing to a 5% tax may not be 35%, but better than nothing.
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post #100 of 123
3/20/12 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff View Post

I love Apple, but I have as much sympathy for them on this issue as I do for millionaires complaining about their income taxes. I'll take that dilemma over the alternative, any day...

Exactly which millionaires do you see complaining about their income taxes?
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post #101 of 123
3/20/12 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

Was George Bush "robbing" you when you were made to pay income taxes during his administration?

I doubt his income was earned outside of the US.
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post #102 of 123
3/20/12 at 9:07pm
It's interesting that not one of the corporate-hating, big government/nanny state-loving people posting here can answer the simple question of why Apple (or any other corporation) should be taxed AGAIN on income that has already been taxed?

As others have pointed out, Apple has already PAID taxes on this income in other countries. I'd like for one of the big government liberals to explain why Apple should pay taxes again.

It's no wonder that our country is failing and that no one wants to do business here. So many Americans believe that it's their right to take what others have earned.
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post #103 of 123
3/20/12 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffi View Post

If I'm an individual working overseas where's my tax break? There are many countries for which I won't receive one. Government sshould offer to tax a US companies _more_ when it keeps it's money offshore.

The first $97,000 you earn oversees is not taxed by the US Govt. Any tax you pay to a foreign government offsets what you would owe to the US.

Pretty fair, and about what a tax holiday does.

Given that apple is now paying a dividend, and the dividend rate is going up, the US would do well to allow a 5% repatriation tax rate. That is the only way it will come back, and it would effectively get taxed at 28% between repatriation, dividend tax, and the new Medicare tax.

Instead, the government wants a 53% cut.
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post #104 of 123
3/21/12 at 2:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

BS..."the entire Republican party" does not take the position that corporate taxes should be zero.

Once again, brainwashed corporation-hating liberals have to resort to lies to prop up support for their totalitarian command/control ideology.

Oh...and wasn't it under Obama's administration that GE paid zero taxes?

...and received government subsidies for these dubious "green economy" initiatives?

GE paid the highest corporate taxes, 35%, when Reagan plugged all the corporate loop holes created by Carter and other democrat cronies.

GE not surprisingly hires former Carter's tax laywers to lobby for tax-breaks and now pays the effective rates of 12%.

thx liberals
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post #105 of 123
3/21/12 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

honestly...if the money was earned overseas and all income from overseas production I do not see why they should be taxed to bring it here...if I go work in England for a month and come back to the US do I have to pay a tax? (honest question as I never worked overseas)

Or at least if they are requiring a tax to be paid it should be significantly less than the 35% (if I'm reading it correctly) that they're asking for.

I don't see how money earned and taxed in country A should be taxed again in country B...but being that I am unversed in these sort of dealings my opinion isn't worth a damn, but still...I say no tax, or no default tax rate at the very least based on what I know.

For starters, people are ignoring the fact that it's a global economy. It is not correct to call Apple a 'U.S. company'. It's a global company.

More importantly, it is incorrect to say that all the money was earned overseas and all income was from overseas. R&D was done in the U.S. Much of the sales were in the US (companies routinely use transfer pricing to shift their profits overseas). And, the corporate offices are in the U.S. Considering that Apple doesn't do its own production, it's hard to claim that most of the money was earned overseas. Most of the money was earned by design, R&D, and corporate decisions - all of which were made in the U.S.

Finally, if the money is going to be distributed to US shareholders, it needs to be brought back to the U.S. Since it's going to US shareholders, that means it is being classified as US profits.
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post #106 of 123
3/21/12 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

For starters, people are ignoring the fact that it's a global economy. It is not correct to call Apple a 'U.S. company'. It's a global company.

Of course it is, but people want to have things both ways. They want the manufacturing advantages of Asian manufacturing (which is fine), they want international markets (which is great), but they still want the company identified as an "American" company.

This is the kind of thing that will eventually break down national borders, but I think we're stuck with these issues for a while. Whether you feel the government is getting screwed due to lost revenue, or the companies are getting screwed due to "excessive" taxation, it's all part of a much larger paradigm shift.
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post #107 of 123
3/21/12 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Right... Corporations should get a free ride and accumulate billions by using the commons paid for by everyone else. Give me a break. I love Apple, but they're showing their free lunch corporatism which is no surprise.
Without a healthy, educated workforce, laws to protect their IP, roads to deliver their products, etc etc, there would be no Apple.
I dnt expect them to behave differently, but I expect and applaud our President for telling them to shove it and start carrying their weight for the benefits they get.

I disagree with this. It's not just reasonable levels of useful infrastructure that the federal government puts in place for companies like Apple to use to find success. The federal government asks the private sector to pay for all sorts of wasteful spending and vote-buying entitlement schemes (that benefit politicians' careers) and failed "green energy" initiatives (that benefit politicians' cronies) and economy killing regulatory bodies and possibly Ms. Fluke's contraceptives and God knows what else.

If we want a better economy the conversation should not be about how we can get corporations or anybody else to pay more to the bloated federal government. The conversation should be about gutting federal spending so there is less need for tax dollars. That way more dollars are left in the hands of real innovators and job creators like Apple and fewer dollars are needed to pay for failures like Solyndra.

You leave money where it is working not confiscate it to put it where it is being wasted and where things are failing.
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post #108 of 123
3/21/12 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail View Post

Of course it is, but people want to have things both ways. They want the manufacturing advantages of Asian manufacturing (which is fine), they want international markets (which is great), but they still want the company identified as an "American" company.

This is the kind of thing that will eventually break down national borders, but I think we're stuck with these issues for a while. Whether you feel the government is getting screwed due to lost revenue, or the companies are getting screwed due to "excessive" taxation, it's all part of a much larger paradigm shift.

Be careful Conrail. If another user adopts the name CSX or NS then they will partially own you.

...except in Detroit, New York, or parts of Pennsylvania.
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post #109 of 123
3/21/12 at 7:05am
The bottom line: Apple, and every other corporation, uses the argument that repatriating the money held overseas through a tax holiday will stimulate significant job/economic growth. This argument isn't supported by the statistical evidence from previous corporate tax holidays. Additionally, corporate tax cuts in general are one of the least effective ways of stimulating economic activity according to statistics. It doesn't even need to be repatriated tax cuts. Companies don't primarily base their spending or hiring on tax windfalls. They primarily base it on the current or projected demand for their products/services.
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post #110 of 123
3/21/12 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

If we want a better economy the conversation should not be about how we can get corporations or anybody else to pay more to the bloated federal government. The conversation should be about gutting federal spending so there is less need for tax dollars. That way more dollars are left in the hands of real innovators and job creators like Apple and fewer dollars are needed to pay for failures like Solyndra.

Solyndra participated in a federal loan guarantee program that was intended to support business growth. That loan guarantee program was passed in 2005 by a GOP controlled Congress. The fact that Solyndra ultimately failed is not a factor of the government being involved, but rather the realities of the worldwide solar cell market. Loans always involve some level of risk, regardless of whether they're being made by the public sector or the private sector. Loans are also generally considered to be a POSITIVE when it comes to stimulating economic and business growth.
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post #111 of 123
3/21/12 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sy1492 View Post

The current issue here is the HIGH tax rate. Lowing the tax rate on foreign money will encourage domestic investments once companies like Apple bring back profits from overseas.

Two choices:
$0 of the $60,000,000,000 with current tax rate or
$x of the $60,000,000,000 with a lower tax rate

That $x multiplies when it's injected in this nation's economy.

.


$0 of $60B means depriving shareholders of that money as well. If shareholders want their dividends, they'll convince Apple to bring the money back at the current tax rate.

Apple can pay taxes like every other entity in this country.
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post #112 of 123
3/21/12 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by foregoneconclusion View Post

Solyndra participated in a federal loan guarantee program that was intended to support business growth. That loan guarantee program was passed in 2005 by a GOP controlled Congress. The fact that Solyndra ultimately failed is not a factor of the government being involved, but rather the realities of the worldwide solar cell market. Loans always involve some level of risk, regardless of whether they're being made by the public sector or the private sector. Loans are also generally considered to be a POSITIVE when it comes to stimulating economic and business growth.

The realities of the worldwide solar cell market is that China has been dumping cell panels on the market below cost - clear predatory pricing. Solyndra is not the only company that got hurt.

It's too bad that neither political party has been willing to put pressure on China to play fair.
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post #113 of 123
3/21/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turley Muller View Post

Wrong. The opposite. Taxing income earned abroad when repatriated encourages companies to stockpile income outside the US, and when the firm wants to build a call support center, or R&D facility, data center etc they will be incentivized to use the funds held outside the US, which means it will be spent outside the US.

The government demands that firms must pay to bring money back, then they will just keep hoarding it abroad. The government will receive $0. Agreeing to a 5% tax may not be 35%, but better than nothing.


Did you not read my prior post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

If the government caves into the demands of the business community, it isnt going to help with the overall economy as a whole.

This will only encourage companies to send jobs or manufacturing plants OUTSIDE of the US in anticipation of future tax breaks from Congress to take advantage of.

Companies are already utilizing tax planning to extreme measures and finding loopholes in the system to take advantage of.

To cave into the demands of these organizations is only going to make matters worse than it is already.






Check this link for more information:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3593

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #114 of 123
3/21/12 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by foregoneconclusion View Post

Solyndra participated in a federal loan guarantee program that was intended to support business growth. That loan guarantee program was passed in 2005 by a GOP controlled Congress. The fact that Solyndra ultimately failed is not a factor of the government being involved, but rather the realities of the worldwide solar cell market. Loans always involve some level of risk, regardless of whether they're being made by the public sector or the private sector. Loans are also generally considered to be a POSITIVE when it comes to stimulating economic and business growth.

The Bush White House disapproved the loan. It was the Obama administration that aggressively pushed the loan guarantee. While one can find some Republican involvement in the early legislation to guarantee the loan it was the Democrats who made sure it happened and the failure occurred on Obama's watch.

I don't like government loan guarantees. The politicians and bureaucrats making the decisions to guarantee the loans are using taxpayer funds and really could not care less whether or not the loan is repaid. If the venture fails they will just borrow more or raise taxes or whatever to cover the loss. If they are Democrats they know that they will not be held responsible because Democrat voters always blame everything on Republicans and corporations somehow no matter what.

In a worst case scenario these federal loan program administrators would lend money to these ventures intending for the ventures to fail but to do so in a way where the creditors to whom the hundreds of millions are paid are big Democrat party contributors. It stinks.
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post #115 of 123
3/21/12 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

Nothing is stopping Apple from investing it's money in the US. How about starting by, I don't know, investing money in the US? One great way to invest money in the US is to bring that money back to the US and paying rightful taxes on it. It's not like they couldn't afford it and it's not money lost either. The states is trillions of dollars in debt in part because companies keep sending jobs overseas due to greed.

I like and use Apple products, and I own a bunch of AAPL shares which have had a really nice effect on my life. I also contribute my time and money to a variety of charity organizations of my choosing. Giving our government even more money to waste by going to war with whomever we're even at war with right now, and growing even larger than the already bloated mess that we have now, are not the charities I choose to contribute to. Neither, for that matter, are the "middle class."

If you want to donate your money to either our government or "the middle class," please go right ahead, but I could really give a s--t about either. I pay the bare minimum of taxes required of me by law; I buy Apple products because I like to use them, I purchased AAPL stock as an investment, and out of the charities I choose to give money to, our government certainly isn't one of them, it steals more than enough from me already and sets fire to it on a mind-boggling collection of retarded projects and goals that I've no interest in funding.

Manufacturing WILL come back to the united states. The week after robotics advances to a state where unskilled workers are no longer necessary. The purpose of a corporation is to generate revenue for the shareholders, not take care of the dysfunctional who are used to spending far more money on credit, then they can ever hope to repay in their lifetimes; or paying taxes twice on the same money.

The "middle class" are not poor. I think it's safe to say that nobody living in poverty is spending their time hanging out and ranting on an Apple message board. Real poverty is horrible, and to reiterate I give both my time and my money to help organizations I feel are making a difference. Pinheads from middle America with a massive sense of entitlement, 5 giant-screen TVs and a house they could never afford to purchase in the first place, are not people I'm terribly interested or concerned with.
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post #116 of 123
3/22/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Trade lifts all parties.

Really, try asking the Native Americans how that "Manhattan Deal" worked out for them.

Newbee says:  Using a Mac "inspires" you, using all others just ... tires you.  

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post #117 of 123
3/22/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


Starve the beast, that's the only way to shrink it.

Maybe eliminating special interest groups and lobbyists would be a good first step.

Newbee says:  Using a Mac "inspires" you, using all others just ... tires you.  

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post #118 of 123
3/22/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Maybe eliminating special interest groups and lobbyists would be a good first step.

I'm thinking an amendment to the Constitution that changes the wording of how bills are created to this:

Quote:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. All bills for the approval of new states shall originate in the Senate; but the House of Representatives may propose of concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

The President may approve any appropriation and disapprove any other appropriation in the same bill. In such case he shall, in signing the bill, designate the appropriations disapproved; and shall return a copy of such appropriations, with his objections, to the House in which the bill shall have originated; and the same proceedings shall then be had as in case of other bills disapproved by the President.

I bolded the most important takeaway, but there are certainly others.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #119 of 123
3/22/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I'm thinking an amendment to the Constitution that changes the wording of how bills are created to this:

Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title.

Sounds good to me.

Newbee says:  Using a Mac "inspires" you, using all others just ... tires you.  

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post #120 of 123
3/22/12 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubbytee View Post

what is $1.5 trillion dollar deficit?

2011 US trade deficit $558 billion
m
US National Debt $15+ trillion

The U.S. budget deficit ....... Google it!

Newbee says:  Using a Mac "inspires" you, using all others just ... tires you.  

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