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Thermal test of iPad's A5X chip shows operating temperature of 97 degrees F - Page 2

post #41 of 105
A warm iPad might be a great feature. My hands often freeze when using ipad outside in the winter time. Now, I have a hand warmer. Hopefully it will still feel warm when temperature outside is 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

99.9% of the time, I use the iPad in landscape, my hands never touch the "hot" area. With a case over the iPad, who's going to notice? And who in their right mind will be leaving their iPad without a protective case?

That reminds me, Apple's magnetic cover is just pure garbage. It doesn't protect the iPad at all.
post #42 of 105
New iPad right here, surfed, sent mails, watched youtube, watched video, played Real Racing II and IB II.

Is it warm? Yeah, my hands are warm too.
Does it keep my hands warm in the cold? Would be a nice and free feature
Does it reenergize the battery like in a hybrid car? Nah, not yet
Does it hamper the usage of the iPad? No.

When there is no shit that bothers you just grab a fly and shove it ... same with personalities, you either have one, are one or every shit happening is personal to you.
post #43 of 105
Sounds like an aftermarket opportunity for cooling cases.

My MacBook was at 153 F a moment ago on the CPU and often gets quite warm to the touch - in the 90 F range on the upper surface of the case next to the keyboard - so not sure what the fuss it about.

If there was some issue suggesting possible damage or a risk of bursting into flames that would be bad news.
post #44 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Let's see. The Dutch site shows a maximum of 92.5 degrees on the external case running GL Benchmark. Repair Labs shows a maximum if 97 degrees ON THE CHIP and 92 degrees external running Netflix. Tested showed a maximum of 82 degrees running 82 degrees running Infinity Blade.

Consumer Reports shows 116 degrees running Infinity Blade.

Hmmm. Who to believe? I guess it won't be the first time CR has faked results to get attention:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...20900-idx.html



That's absurd.

First, you don't have any idea how long it would have taken to shrink the CPU. It's really funny how people can make claims like that without having any clue.

Second, it's an obvious result. The unit uses almost twice as much power as the previous one. Power doesn't just disappear, it must go somewhere. A tiny portion of it is dissipated as light (although total light output didn't change much from iPad 2 to iPad 3, so that's not going to account for the difference). The rest must be heat - regardless of how heavy or thick the device is. It is not surprising that it's slightly warmer.

I have a clue for you - a 300 HP car engine puts out more heat than a 100 HP car engine, too. I guess CR should be investigating the car manufacturers. If a radiator hose breaks, just think of how much faster that high performance car will overheat.

There are no reports of the device overheating to the point of shutting off. Apple says it meets their specifications. And even the most anti-Apple reports claim that it's not too hot to hold.

People are just stirring up a controversy where none exists.


What part of the word "If" did you not understand?

Do you think they will shrink it for the iPhone 5 launch in September? Yes, that's right - there is a very good chance they will. And its a few months away

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post #45 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Sigh. I'm trying to remember if there's been an Apple product rollout in the last 10 years or so that didn't feature an abrupt flurry of hysteria around some perceived failing. Hysteria, I might add, that typically blows away again as if it never happened, followed by every increasing sales and soaring consumer satisfaction numbers.

You are absolutely right. People are gunning for Apple and will whip up anything they can to try and derail them. Throw as much mud as you can and see if any of it sticks. It didn't work with the iPhone 4 (antenna-gate), it didn't work with the iPhone 4S (Siri-gate). Let's see if they can make any of this stick.
post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

What part of the word "If" did you not understand?

Do you think they will shrink it for the iPhone 5 launch in September? Yes, that's right - there is a very good chance they will. And its a few months away

Sorry, I'm not going to play 'if' games. Apple knows a lot more about what's available than you do.

As for the next die shrink:
- You don't know when it will occur.
- Even if it does occur for the next iPhone, that doesn't prove that it would work for the iPad. For example, I suspect that the next iPhone won't need the 4 graphics cores of the A5X

But even if it does occur and even if the iPhone uses the same A5X processor, that doesn't provide justification for waiting for the next die shrink. Why in the world should Apple wait 6 months for the next generation when the current one isn't causing any problems (other than people having to hear incessant whining from Apple-haters)? There is no evidence that there's a problem, so why should Apple give up billions of dollars in revenues just so some smug, self-satisfied people have to find something else to complain about (and I'm sure you and CR would find something else to complain about even if Apple were using 38 nm chips)?
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post #47 of 105
They were using the egg frying App from Adobe. You start the app and turn over the iPad. Very useful when camping.
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post #48 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

You are absolutely right. People are gunning for Apple and will whip up anything they can to try and derail them. Throw as much mud as you can and see if any of it sticks. It didn't work with the iPhone 4 (antenna-gate), it didn't work with the iPhone 4S (Siri-gate). Let's see if they can make any of this stick.

Apple have this covered, the aluminum and glass are both 'non stick'
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post #49 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleADayKeepsDrAway View Post

A warm iPad might be a great feature. My hands often freeze when using ipad outside in the winter time. Now, I have a hand warmer. Hopefully it will still feel warm when temperature outside is 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

99.9% of the time, I use the iPad in landscape, my hands never touch the "hot" area. With a case over the iPad, who's going to notice? And who in their right mind will be leaving their iPad without a protective case?

That reminds me, Apple's magnetic cover is just pure garbage. It doesn't protect the iPad at all.

Have to admit on the magnetic cover point, I moved on to a nifty adjustable case that makes into a stand with infinite angles and totally protects the iPad. It was $9 in Marshalls, my favorite iOS gadget store. I get to wander the two or three gadget shelves for hours while the wife is shopping there

I wonder if there is another use for the mag covers? Note to self ... See if it sticks to fridge ...
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post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granmastak View Post

In other news, Al Gore says the new iPad is contributing to Global warming but he still wants one so he can surf the net he invented.

When will people give up on that totally false and lame attempt at humor?

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
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post #51 of 105
And now the compromises begin with Apple without Steve

However, it does show to always buy Apple products on the "bug fix" version and not the major update -- 3GS, ipad 2, and 4s are all fantastic products with no deficiencies in design
post #52 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacInsider2 View Post

And now the compromises begin with Apple without Steve

However, it does show to always buy Apple products on the "bug fix" version and not the major update -- 3GS, ipad 2, and 4s are all fantastic products with no deficiencies in design

Oh, yeah. Steve would have been able to break the laws of physics. He could easily have had twice the power consumption without generating additional heat. /s
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post #53 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Let's see. The Dutch site shows a maximum of 92.5 degrees on the external case running GL Benchmark. Repair Labs shows a maximum if 97 degrees ON THE CHIP and 92 degrees external running Netflix. Tested showed a maximum of 82 degrees running 82 degrees running Infinity Blade.

Consumer Reports shows 116 degrees running Infinity Blade.

Hmmm. Who to believe? I guess it won't be the first time CR has faked results to get attention:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...20900-idx.html

Here's another one (CNET) which shows that the difference is very slight - and nowhere near the 116 degrees CR claims:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...?tag=mncol;txt

Sounds like CR is the only one seeing a 'problem'.

I'm going to trademark "CRgate".
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post #54 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Oh, yeah. Steve would have been able to break the laws of physics. He could easily have had twice the power consumption without generating additional heat. /s

You are of course aware that many yahoos ride around in trucks with electrolysis devices run off their truck's batteries creating hydrogen they then feed into their fuel intake don't you? They all claim to get huge fuel savings.

The laws of thermodynamics are there to be broken if you don't know enough physics.
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post #55 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

You are of course aware that many yahoos ride around in trucks with electrolysis devices run off their truck's batteries creating hydrogen they then feed into their fuel intake don't you? They all claim to get huge fuel savings.

The laws of thermodynamics are there to be broken if you don't know enough physics.

I'm quite aware of the lunatics out there. I participate in an energy forum and we get a new perpetual motion machine at least once a week.
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post #56 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm quite aware of the lunatics out there. I participate in an energy forum and we get a new perpetual motion machine at least once a week.

That must be absolutely hilarious. You should post them somewhere to read.

edit ...

As long as you had a disclaimer stating that it was in conflict with the laws of thermodynamics you could sell a ton of stuff legally I'd imagine.
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post #57 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

That must be absolutely hilarious. You should post them somewhere to read.

edit ...

As long as you had a disclaimer stating that it was in conflict with the laws of thermodynamics you could sell a ton of stuff legally I'd imagine.

They generally don't do that. They simply claim that the scientists who tell them that they're violating the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

On rare occasions, they say that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to them because their technology isn't bound by those laws.

When you ask for independent, third party verification, the response is something along the lines of "the people at NIST or DOE or xxxxx have already evaluated it, but they don't know what they're doing and got the results wrong. I am the inventor and I know it works so that should be good enough for you".

It was sort of funny at first, but it loses its humor after a while - mostly because so many gullible people get sucked in no matter how much you explain that it's a scam.
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post #58 of 105
This is the silliest topic ever on the iPad!

Or this is the stupidest topic ever!

Duh.

Sure, the iPad has twice the number of LED bulbs. This it is going to be warmer than the iPad 2.

Big deal.

Live with it.

Enjoy it!

It great during the winter!

Wow wee!

Yippee!

Its faster!

Stupid.

I bought mine.

I love it.

I love that its warmer!

The warmth assures me it is faster!
post #59 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Hmmm. Who to believe? I guess it won't be the first time CR has faked results to get attention

Didn't Consumer Reports win that suit? Have they ever been successfully sued for defamation?
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post #60 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Not necessarily. Well yes, but in a few years a proc with this same power as this will run significantly cooler, so it's not simply cut and dried like that.

The iPad 2 puts out 25 Wh or heat over the 10 hours while the new one puts out 42.5 Wh. Of course it is going to be hotter. What did peopel expect?

Going to 28 nm allows "the same" processor to use less energy. My guess though, is that when they do go to 28 nm they will also go quad core and the power consumption will stay the same. It will always be a trade off, how much processing power can you get and still keep the device cool enough to handle.

Now if they had built the 15" iPad like I want, the surface area would be over twice as large and the temperatures would be much lower.
post #61 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Not necessarily. Well yes, but in a few years a proc with this same power as this will run significantly cooler, so it's not simply cut and dried like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm quite aware of the lunatics out there. I participate in an energy forum and we get a new perpetual motion machine at least once a week.

Tell me is that forum more entertaining than AI?
post #62 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Didn't Consumer Reports win that suit? Have they ever been successfully sued for defamation?

Here's some background:
http://junksciencearchive.com/consum...r_lat0923.html

Note that the standards for defamation are pretty high - you must show actual malice and that the information was posted with intent to harm. Because of this, the decision was split. The jury said that CR knowingly published false statements but did not do so with intent to harm, so no damages were awarded:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/08/bu...r-reports.html

So, the jury decision was that CR had made a false report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Sure, the iPad has twice the number of LED bulbs. This it is going to be warmer than the iPad 2.

If that were the explanation, the temperature wouldn't depend on what you're doing with it. As it is, there's a big increase in temperature when you play games or do GPU benchmarks, so the A5X is probably a major contributor.
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post #63 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

An external test involved having the two iPads to play movies on Netflix. The third-generation iPad started at 27 degrees C (80.6 degrees F) and warmed up to 32-33 degrees C (89.6-91.4 degrees F), while the iPad 2 started at 24 degrees C (75.2 degrees F) and only climbed to 25-26 degrees C (77-78.8 degrees F).

[ View article on AppleInsider ]

Wow! If my kid's forehead is 32-33 degrees C (89.6-91.4 degrees F) I will take him to the emergency room right away. lol
post #64 of 105
For once, can people chill out? The chip is running a screen resolution bigger than a 42 inch TV. It's obvious that it will get much warmer.
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post #65 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFruniken View Post

My point is the following.

If the iPad 3's external housing gets hotter, it may be partly because of better heat transfer from the processor to the external world. Something already mentioned elsewhere, namely heat produced by other parts such as LED backlights, is not directly contributing to peak temperatures in the processor.

Further, given that the A5X has a metal housing, it may also be evacuating the heat better than the A4's plastic housing.

Also, opening up the case may not give a representative idea of the processor temperature, because of different heat conduction to the outer shell.

The only reliable measurement would be to access the on-chip temperature sensors.
Maybe there would be no FUD articles to publish if it would actually turn out that the actual dye temperature in the iPad3's processor is hardly different from that in the previous models. Would such a realization put CR, the NYT and others to shame? Probably not, they wouldn't even admit their unscientific mistake. They would simply start looking at something else to pick on.

^^^^ This. Lot's of uninformed heat trasfer discussion in this and related threads.
post #66 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

Wow! If my kid's forehead is 32-33 degrees C (89.6-91.4 degrees F) I will take him to the emergency room right away. lol

That's a good idea. Hypothermia can be dangerous.
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post #67 of 105
"Thermal test of iPad's A5X chip shows operating temperature of 97 degrees F"


Thank you for the "F" !
post #68 of 105
"but he still wants one so he can surf the net he invented."

I know another member has already posted a Snopes link on this subject, and I apologize that this is off topic, but decent people have to stand up for the truth and against casual slander and politically motivated lies whenever such BS appears. Please note that I'm not attacking the original poster, who I'm sure intended only to be amusing.

Anyone who still believes that Al Gore ever claimed he invented the Internet should read this. Even Newt Gingrich has defended Gore on this issue, as you'll find if you bother to read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore...ion_technology
post #69 of 105
I think these are isolated issues, as each test comes up with different numbers for maximum heat. How can one iPad get up to 116 degrees F but another only get to 100? Makes no sense. Do multiple tests and take the average. More scientific.
post #70 of 105
That's not bad. I run at 98.6 myself.
post #71 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbit View Post

I think these are isolated issues, as each test comes up with different numbers for maximum heat. How can one iPad get up to 116 degrees F but another only get to 100? Makes no sense. Do multiple tests and take the average. More scientific.

Because they are measuring at different points, after stressing the processor in different ways and with the iPad in different positions.

In all the cases (even the CR test) the qualitative result was the same - its warmer, but not too bad.
post #72 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

This is the silliest topic ever on the iPad!

Or this is the stupidest topic ever!

Duh.

Sure, the iPad has twice the number of LED bulbs. This it is going to be warmer than the iPad 2.

Big deal.

Live with it.

Enjoy it!

It great during the winter!

Wow wee!

Yippee!

Its faster!

Stupid.

I bought mine.

I love it.

I love that its warmer!

The warmth assures me it is faster!

How fittingly ironic that the post claiming this topic is the silliest ever is the silliest post in this thread.
post #73 of 105
I liked the article but have a problem with your methodology and use (or lack of use) of math / science units.

The issue is that when comparing temperatures and speaking about "hot" and "cold" device temperatures you need to use Kelvin (temps relative to absolute zero) if you want to compare the heat content (AKA Temperature). F temps will exaggerate, C even more so. Kelvin is correct method engineering wise.

The "hot" device (the iPad (3) ) is 306 K and the "cool" device is 299K.
This is a 2.28% difference which is probably less than measurement errors.
(You DID do a minimum of three measurements for each trial didn't you? ;-)

I don't expect dry engineering writing but a little physics understanding (of basic thermodynamics for example) should be present. Mentioning the basic fact that the new iPad uses 42.5W in 10Hr vs 25W in 10Hr for the iPad2 explains the minor heat increase.

Consumer Reports need to get engineers to do their testing.
Their methodology and reporting sucks, is sensationalist and self-serving.

PeterSW
post #74 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspicerwensley View Post

I liked the article but have a problem with your methodology and use (or lack of use) of math / science units.

The issue is that when comparing temperatures and speaking about "hot" and "cold" device temperatures you need to use Kelvin (temps relative to absolute zero) if you want to compare the heat content (AKA Temperature). F temps will exaggerate, C even more so. Kelvin is correct method engineering wise.

The "hot" device (the iPad (3) ) is 306 K and the "cool" device is 299K.
This is a 2.28% difference which is probably less than measurement errors.
(You DID do a minimum of three measurements for each trial didn't you? ;-)

I don't expect dry engineering writing but a little physics understanding (of basic thermodynamics for example) should be present. Mentioning the basic fact that the new iPad uses 42.5W in 10Hr vs 25W in 10Hr for the iPad2 explains the minor heat increase.

Consumer Reports need to get engineers to do their testing.
Their methodology and reporting sucks, is sensationalist and self-serving.

PeterSW

As explained in a different thread, you are incorrect.

You should be measuring heat gain while in operation. If the iPad 2 is at 70 degrees when turned off and 80 degrees when in use, that's a 10 degree heat gain from operation. If the iPad 3 is at 70 degrees when turned off and 90 degrees when turned on, that's a 20 degree heat gain from operation - or 100% more.

Of course, neither one is a significant problem and there are no reports of any problems caused by it. Furthermore, there are at least 4 or 5 different reports of external temperatures and none of them come close to Consumer Reports' figures. Most of them put iPad 3 temperatures in heavy use into the 90's, not 116.
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post #75 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakime View Post

... given that the tradeoff in terms of heat to stay at 45 nm for the A5X chip is quite small, few percent. The fact that you feel that the new iPad is warmer is because there are several reasons adding up, bigger battery, more pixels, etc.. But again the final difference in heat production is quite small. ...

In fact most of the heat comes from the processor chip (thats why the heat is localized) and that is confirmed by tests that measure the temperature of the chip itself.
Reducing the feature size to 32nm from 45nm will reduce the dissipation (heat production) with a factor of almost 3, if the chip design is unaltered and the clock frequencies stay the same.
So that's a very big difference.

J.
post #76 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

As explained in a different thread, you are incorrect.

You should be measuring heat gain while in operation. If the iPad 2 is at 70 degrees when turned off and 80 degrees when in use, that's a 10 degree heat gain from operation. If the iPad 3 is at 70 degrees when turned off and 90 degrees when turned on, that's a 20 degree heat gain from operation - or 100% more.

Of course, neither one is a significant problem and there are no reports of any problems caused by it. Furthermore, there are at least 4 or 5 different reports of external temperatures and none of them come close to Consumer Reports' figures. Most of them put iPad 3 temperatures in heavy use into the 90's, not 116.

Exactly, it's the temperature delta that counts. And in that case the scale (celsius, kelvin, fahrenheit) doesn't matter.

J.
post #77 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post

In fact most of the heat comes from the processor chip (thats why the heat is localized) and that is confirmed by tests that measure the temperature of the chip itself.
Reducing the feature size to 32nm from 45nm will reduce the dissipation (heat production) with a factor of almost 3, if the chip design is unaltered and the clock frequencies stay the same.
So that's a very big difference.

J.

First, I don't believe your numbers.

More importantly, reducing it to 11 nm would also reduce the heat generation - but 11 nm isn't ready either. What's the point of talking about something that isn't available.

Oh, and btw, some reports suggest that a lot of the heat is coming from the CPU, but a good bit also comes from the battery. If you discharge a battery quickly, it heats up.
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post #78 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

You use whatever unit you like. But please, considering the worldwide audience you have, change such titles into "Thermal test of iPad's A5X chip shows operating temperature of 97 degrees F" (that would prevent me from having a heart attack)

Really they should't have the "A5X chip" in the title -- when it's quickly concluded that the added heat is mostly due to the higher resolution screen.

About 8 degrees higher? I think it's probably a small miracle it wasn't even hotter than that.
post #79 of 105
I would think a good solution would be for Apple to due a software update, creating a "Normal" and "Turbo" mode in settings. The "Turbo" mode mainly for hard gaming or hd viewing, and "Normal" mode for pictures, browsing, reading, etc.
post #80 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

Really they should't have the "A5X chip" in the title -- when it's quickly concluded that the added heat is mostly due to the higher resolution screen.

I don't think so. Look at the table at the beginning of this thread.

At idle, iPad 3 is 1 degree warmer than iPad 1 or 2.

Web browsing, iPad 3 is 3 degrees warmer than iPad 1 or 2.

Watching a YouTube video, iPad 3 is 4 degrees warmer than iPad 1 or 2.

Playing Infiniti Blade, iPad 3 is 4-9 degrees warmer than iPad 1 or 2.

The amount of heat generated by the screen is likely the same in all of those cases (the screen's heat is mostly from the backlight). The harder you stress the CPU and GPU, the more the iPad 3 gains on the earlier versions. That suggests pretty strongly that it's mostly the CPU/GPU which accounts for the difference. Also, note that on Infinity Blade, the iPad 2 is considerably warmer than iPad 1. The screens are the same, but the CPU/GPUs are different - once again confirming that it's the CPU/GPU that accounts for the difference.

Now, it is true that the higher resolution screen is the reason for the faster GPU, but it's the GPU generating the heat, not the screen.
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