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post #161 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No. But I do wonder how you think licensing someone to business has anything to do with buildings and bridges collapsing.

Ok, you think about it for a while then.
post #162 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ok, you think about it for a while then.

I have. Maybe you should. Perhaps you'll be able to invent a connection similar to your "I pay US taxes because someone else is paying US taxes" rationale.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #163 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I have. Maybe you should. Perhaps you'll be able to invent a connection similar to your "I pay US taxes because someone else is paying US taxes" rationale.

It's simple, actually. A building can collapse and hurt innocent people (i.e. deprive them of their life, liberty, and property in your lingo). So can a business. Very easily, in fact. The reason buildings collapse in china is due to lack of effective regulation.
post #164 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's simple, actually. A building can collapse and hurt innocent people (i.e. deprive them of their life, liberty, and property in your lingo). So can a business. Very easily, in fact.

But licensing won't stop that. You make it sound like businesses hurting people is the norm or even their purpose or goal and that were it not for the benevolent, paternal state they would not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The reason buildings collapse in china is due to lack of effective regulation.

I'll reserve judgement on that until I have more facts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #165 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But licensing won't stop that. You make it sound like businesses hurting people is the norm or even their purpose or goal and that were it not for the benevolent, paternal state they would not.

Exactly.

Quote:


I'll reserve judgement on that until I have more facts.

The entire comparison is stupid anyway.
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post #166 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But licensing won't stop that. You make it sound like businesses hurting people is the norm or even their purpose or goal and that were it not for the benevolent, paternal state they would not.

Nothing *stops* anything. Witness Bernie Madoff, Enron, whatever Internet scams you can dream of. But licensing (and observation of business practices) absolutely helps.
post #167 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But licensing (and observation of business practices) absolutely helps.

That's highly doubtful.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #168 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That's highly doubtful.

In a utopian world where people never lie, cheat or steal.
post #169 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In a utopian world where people never lie, cheat or steal.

And, of course those liars, cheaters and thieves never gain control of the government and its regulatory apparatus.



I'm guessing you can't prove your claim and that the evidence in support of it is quite thin and subject to generous interpretation. I'm also guessing that government regulation making the world a better place is simply what you naively think and hope will be true.

In the mean time there's lots of evidence that shows that government regulatory apparatus gets corrupted and usually pretty quickly...sometimes before it even becomes officially created. That's been the rule rather than the exception in the US from the ICC to the USDA, to the Fed, the FDA, FCC, FAA, SEC...the whole alphabet soup.

Additionally, this regulation plays to the naive confidence people have in government regulation and causes them to assume things are well covered when often they're not, actually creating great risk than of they were to assume not and look for other, independent signs to assuage their concerns. In a sense this creates something akin to the moral hazard problem.

So, as I said, highly doubtful.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #170 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And, of course those liars, cheaters and thieves never gain control of the government and its regulatory apparatus.

And of course if they ever do so we have no power to vote them out or change policy.

Oh, sorry... that's the business sector we have no power over (without regulation).

We have regulation of government.
post #171 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And of course if they ever do so we have no power to vote them out or change policy.

And with business we have the power to stop buying their products and services right now. And even to sue them (rarely a successful tactic with the government BTW). At the Presidential level in the US we've had almost 12 years of the same policies and are probably going to have at least 4 more of the same! The market typically changes much faster than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, sorry... that's the business sector we have no power over (without regulation).

Wrong as pointed out above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We have regulation of government.

Your faith in the state is astoundingly naive...and not a little scary.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #172 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And with business we have the power to stop buying their products and services right now. And even to sue them (rarely a successful tactic with the government BTW).

So let's say, hypothetically, that a powdered baby milk company decides to try increasing protein levels by adding melanin. They didn't expect it, but this caused 50 babies to die and 500 to get sick enough that they had to go to the hospital for treatment. Don't worry, we can sue the company! Fantastic!

Bernie Madoff is in jail! I guess all those investors are really really happy now.

The families of the miners killed got money in an out of court settlement! Hooray!

Oh, by the way, how are those lawsuits against BP for the gulf oil spill going? And all the worldwide boycotts?

Quote:
Your faith in the state is astoundingly naive...and not a little scary.

I don't have faith in the state. I have faith in the system. It's not perfect, but it's far better than the alternative.
post #173 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So let's say, hypothetically, that a powdered baby milk company decides to try increasing protein levels by adding melanin. They didn't expect it, but this caused 50 babies to die and 500 to get sick enough that they had to go to the hospital for treatment. Don't worry, we can sue the company! Fantastic!

Oh, by the way, how are those lawsuits against BP for the gulf oil spill going? And all the worldwide boycotts?

I'm quite sure it is in the realm of intellectual dishonesty to use examples of regulatory failure to try and prove your point that we need regulation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't have faith in the state. I have faith in the system.

To-mate-to...to-mah-to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's not perfect, but it's far better than the alternative.

Actually, that's exactly what I'd say about the market system.

Frankly the market system has a far, far better track record than most governments. It's really not even close when looked at honestly.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #174 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm quite sure it is in the realm of intellectual dishonesty to use examples of regulatory failure to try and prove your point that we need regulation.

Of course, because none of the problems that happen due to regulatory failure would ever happen due to regulatory absence.
Quote:
To-mate-to...to-mah-to.

Are you really admitting openly that you can't see the difference?
Quote:
Actually, that's exactly what I'd say about the market system.

Of course, since you don't observe the real world around you. There are plenty of examples of lack of regulation leading to loss of life, liberty and property. Everywhere.
Quote:
Frankly the market system has a far, far better track record than most governments. It's really not even close when looked at honestly.

The US government is not 'most governments'. Our system is better, and that's why you can't, for instance say 'look at the corruption in China! See! Lack of government is better than government in all cases!
post #175 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course, because none of the problems that happen due to regulatory failure would ever happen due to regulatory absence.

Actually...that's very possible, even probable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are you really admitting openly that you can't see the difference?

No. I'm openly claiming that you're arguing semantics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course, since you don't observe the real world around you. There are plenty of examples of lack of regulation leading to loss of life, liberty and property. Everywhere.

Yes, it's my lack of observation of reality.

I don't think you really want to get into an argument about which of private businesses or governments are responsible for the great harm, loss of life, liberty and property.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The US government is not 'most governments'.

No, it's a bad enough example all its own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Our system is better, and that's why you can't, for instance say 'look at the corruption in China! See! Lack of government is better than government in all cases!

Gee...why not? You get to point to Somolia and claim that is the prime example of libertarianism.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #176 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't think you really want to get into an argument about which of private businesses or governments are responsible for the great harm, loss of life, liberty and property.

Take war out of the equation (which we agree on) and I'll take that challenge. At least with regard to the US system of government.
post #177 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Take war out of the equation (which we agree on) and I'll take that challenge. At least with regard to the US system of government.

If I've given you the impression that the US form of government isn't pretty darn good (as governments go), then I apologize. But it has gotten worse, much worse. This correlates with it getting bigger, much bigger. It has exceeded the boundaries that it seems the founders had wisely intended. It needs to go in reverse.

I believe the single, primary role of government is to protect the basic rights of life, liberty and property of its citizens. The proverbial "night watchman" state. Anything beyond that is a precarious move that threatens to violate its primary purpose.

The US government has become an imperial behemoth both domestically and internationally. It and its supporters believe they have the right to control almost every aspect of almost everyone's lives. It has gone too far.

I also realize you are probably on the polar opposite of most of those beliefs.

While you and I probably agree on the ends, the goals on many things, we strongly disagree on the means. Your means involves imposing your values by force on everyone. Mine allows people to be free.

P.S. You don't just get to exclude war because you want to, because war comes from the big government you support. In fact more wars and more people have died from the presidents you have or would have supported (i.e., Democratic/Socialist presidents) than any other! It comes from the policies you support. The US wants to disarm Iran, you want to disarm individual citizens. The US wants Iraq's oil, you want the money belonging to the rich. It's really only a matter of degree. War is simply an extension of your desire to force your will onto others. The fact that your intended victims throw their hands up in surrender before the guns come out matters little. It's all part and parcel of the same mindset. Furthermore, you can't continue advocating massive spending a taxation and expect it won't be used for war as it has by the US. Talk about someone not observing reality!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #178 of 219
http://www.infozine.com/news/infozine/51270.html

It's clean. It's renewable. It's good for our planet. Except for when you want to build it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #179 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

http://www.infozine.com/news/infozine/51270.html

It's clean. It's renewable. It's good for our planet. Except for when you want to build it.

So why didn't they just move it to one of the proposed alternate sites? Seems pretty cut and dried.
post #180 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So why didn't they just move it to one of the proposed alternate sites? Seems pretty cut and dried.

Why don't you answer that yourself?

BTW, I've decided your home is built on land in a manner I have decided is environmentally insensitive. Please just move without compensation to whatever alternative site I demand at whatever cost it requires of you.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #181 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why don't you answer that yourself?

BTW, I've decided your home is built on land in a manner I have decided is environmentally insensitive. Please just move without compensation to whatever alternative site I demand at whatever cost it requires of you.

1) My home is not built yet; and
2) It's public land, not owned by me.

Now try again.
post #182 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

1) My home is not built yet; and
2) It's public land, not owned by me.

Now try again.

Don't be a hypocrite. You want me to try again and you haven't tried once.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #183 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Don't be a hypocrite. You want me to try again and you haven't tried once.

Money. That's the answer. And not a lot of it, relatively. The developers could save slightly more money in infrastructure if they built in a place that was not as environmentally conscious.

I was just pointing out the absurdity of your analogy.
post #184 of 219
Thread Starter 
"House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner, the top Republican in Congress, wrote to Obama to urge him to approve a controversial oil pipeline and fulfill a promise of an "all of the above" approach to ease dependence on foreign oil.

Republicans have intensified their attacks on the Democratic president's energy policies in recent days, blaming them for higher pump prices that could hurt his re-election prospects in the November 6 face-off against the eventual Republican presidential nominee.

However, the White House said it was wrong to suggest TranCanada Corp's proposed Keystone XL crude oil pipeline could quickly help bring down prices at the pump.

"He, being honest with the American people, makes clear that there are no silver bullets here, there are no quick fixes," White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters."
~ http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81R1N920120228


And so what did we have for the last ten years.... http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...1.00.37-PM.png
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post #185 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Money. That's the answer. And not a lot of it, relatively. The developers could save slightly more money in infrastructure if they built in a place that was not as environmentally conscious.

I was just pointing out the absurdity of your analogy.

Your claim isn't supported. Often they want the whole project just made unprofitable. They want the location changed, the size scaled back, until the it becomes unfeasible.

The press release mentions they came to terms with other groups. You don't find it odd that they find fault with every solar installation approved in the state and threaten, negotiate or sue all of them?

What does it say when even the clean technologies tech 5-10 years, lawsuits and all manner of negotiations and fees just to possibly be used? This isn't coal. This is solar power for goodness sakes.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #186 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Your claim isn't supported. Often they want the whole project just made unprofitable. They want the location changed, the size scaled back, until the it becomes unfeasible.

No, the environmental groups do not want that. The oil companies, however...
Quote:
The press release mentions they came to terms with other groups. You don't find it odd that they find fault with every solar installation approved in the state and threaten, negotiate or sue all of them?

Who is "they"? Please support your asinine assertion that the same groups oppose 'every solar installation approved in the state'. That's quite simply a level 11 lie.
Quote:
What does it say when even the clean technologies tech 5-10 years, lawsuits and all manner of negotiations and fees just to possibly be used? This isn't coal. This is solar power for goodness sakes.

It says someone is trying to block it from happening. Hmm... I wonder who?
post #187 of 219


To be honest, that would have to be adjusted for population for the point to be made. Still, the point is valid.
post #188 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post



To be honest, that would have to be adjusted for population for the point to be made. Still, the point is valid.

What has to be adjusted for population? What point is valid?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #189 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, the environmental groups do not want that. The oil companies, however...

Who is "they"? Please support your asinine assertion that the same groups oppose 'every solar installation approved in the state'. That's quite simply a level 11 lie.

It must be nice to label your own ignorance a lie by others.

The proposed California-based Calico solar project fails to meet basic environmental protection requirements and threatens imperiled wildlife, according to Defenders of Wildlife, the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Sierra Club.

None of those are oil companies. Are you now contending that they are front groups for petroleum interests?


Quote:
It says someone is trying to block it from happening. Hmm... I wonder who?

People who can read understand who and better still, they don't lash at people and display their own ignorance.

Defenders, NRDC and the Sierra Club have previously supported or reached agreements with developers of five of the seven large-scale solar projects approved in California by Interior since 2009. This consensus building effort resulted in better projects that would create almost 3,670 construction jobs, about 525 permanent jobs and nearly 2,600 megawatts of clean power while minimizing impacts on key species and wild lands.

Here's another take on it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #190 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What has to be adjusted for population? What point is valid?

He's claiming that increased U.S. production won't affect gas prices. His logic is flawed, but that's what he's claiming.

Why tonton is wrong: The graph shows U.S. production at a relatively constant level while price levels of gas fluctuate. However, if we dramatically increased production, it would clearly have an impact on the world oil market (for both real and speculative reasons)....which itself is the real driver of gas prices. He's arguing against the laws of supply and demand again, as well as how commodities market work.
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post #191 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You get to point to Somolia and claim that is the prime example of libertarianism.


I was trying to think of a prime example of tonton's ideal and I realized there is a place like that right here in the United States - a place with free healthcare for all, where nobody goes hungry and only those with authority have guns: prison.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #192 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I was trying to think of a prime example of tonton's ideal and I realized there is a place like that right here in the United States - a place with free healthcare for all, where nobody goes hungry and only those with authority have guns: prison.

Nice try, and very funny.

Of course, my place also has freedoms. Just not all the freedoms you proscribe, like the freedom to refuse to pay taxes when you're earning a healthy profit, or the freedom to make the world more dangerous by allowing anyone and everyone to go to the liquor store and buy a gun. But it was cute.
post #193 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He's claiming that increased U.S. production won't affect gas prices. His logic is flawed, but that's what he's claiming.

Why tonton is wrong: The graph shows U.S. production at a relatively constant level while price levels of gas fluctuate. However, if we dramatically increased production, it would clearly have an impact on the world oil market (for both real and speculative reasons)....which itself is the real driver of gas prices. He's arguing against the laws of supply and demand again, as well as how commodities market work.

Pop quiz: What percentage of the world oil production is from the US? If we double that production, how much of an effect would it have on global oil prices? Triple it?

And my suggestion to add population to the equation would make the production levels drop, so it supports your argument a little better. According to the graph and the fact that the US population has continued to increase, oil production per capita has been falling over those ten years. I was just being honest about that.
post #194 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nice try, and very funny.

Of course, my place also has freedoms. Just not all the freedoms you proscribe, like the freedom to refuse to pay taxes when you're earning a healthy profit, or the freedom to make the world more dangerous by allowing anyone and everyone to go to the liquor store and buy a gun. But it was cute.

You are incorrect. Taxation is theft, and I advocate doing away with it completely.

Also, guns do not "make the world more dangerous". Guns are inanimate objects.

Your place does not fit the definition of freedom:

"Freedom is a condition in which a person's ownership rights in his own body and his legitimate material property are not invaded, are not aggressed against." - Murray N. Rothbard

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #195 of 219
Thread Starter 
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS INFORMATION THAT MAY CAUSE NUCLEAR POWER ADVOCATES TO CHANGE THEIR THOUGHTS-

"The damage to the core of at least one of the meltdown-stricken reactors at Fukushima could be far worse than previously thought, raising fresh concerns over the plants stability and gravely complicating the post-disaster cleanup, a recent internal investigation has shown.

The low water levels also raise concerns that radioactive water may be leaking out of the reactor at a higher rate than previously thought, possibly into a part of the reactor known as the suppression chamber, and into a network of pipes and chambers under the plant or into the ocean. At the No. 2 reactor, workers still pump about 9 tons of water an hour into the core to keep it cool.

The investigation also found current radiation levels of 72.0 Sieverts inside the containment vessel, enough to kill a person in a matter of minutes, as well as for electronic equipment to malfunction.

Kazuhiko Kudo, a professor of nuclear engineering at Kyushu University in southwestern Japan, said it was now suspect whether the nuclear fuel was being adequately cooled. And if some parts of the fuel remained above water, there was a risk the fuel could again heat up and melt. That could trigger a dangerous spike in the pressure inside the containment vessel, and lead to more radiation escaping the reactor, he said.

The high levels of radiation would greatly complicate work to locate and remove the damaged fuel and decommission the plants six reactors a process that is expected to take decades.

With levels of radiation extremely high, we would need to develop equipment that can tolerate high radiation, Junichi Matsumoto, an executive at Tokyo Electric Power, said Tuesday.

Two other badly-damaged reactors Nos. 1 and 3 could be in even worse condition. Hydrogen explosions blew out the outer walls of those reactors, and officials believe that more nuclear fuel has breached the containment vessel at the No. 1 reactor than the others.

Experts also worry about a fourth reactor that was not operating at the time of the accident, but nevertheless poses a risk because of the large number of spent nuclear fuel rods stored in a water coolant tank there. The No. 4 reactor was also hit by a hydrogen explosion in the early days of the crisis, possibly due to hydrogen that leaked into the reactor from the adjacent No. 3 unit.

The spent fuel rods stored at the No. 4 reactor pose a particular threat, experts say, because they lie unprotected outside the units containment vessel. Tokyo Electric has been racing to fortify the crumpled outer shell of the reactor, and to keep the tank fed with water. But should a problem also arise with cooling the spent fuel, the plant could run the risk of another colossal radiation leak, experts say.

The many aftershocks that continue to hit the Fukushima region are also a source of worry.

The plant is still in a precarious state, said Mr. Kudo of Kyushu University. Unfortunately, all we can do is to keep pumping water inside the reactors, he said, and hope we dont have another big earthquake."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/wo...s.html?_r=1&hp
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post #196 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS INFORMATION THAT MAY CAUSE NUCLEAR POWER ADVOCATES TO CHANGE THEIR THOUGHTS...

Sure. And the psychotic episode of a Jet Blue pilot is going to cause us to 'change our thoughts' about Air Travel.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #197 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Sure. And the psychotic episode of a Jet Blue pilot is going to cause us to 'change our thoughts' about Air Travel.

The TSA has made me change my thoughts about air travel far more than a single isolated incident like that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #198 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Pop quiz: What percentage of the world oil production is from the US? If we double that production, how much of an effect would it have on global oil prices? Triple it?

Well, we use 20% of the world's oil and have 2% in proven reserves....but I'm hoping you're being honest enough to admit that's a very flawed data point for several reasons (I think you are). According to this, world oil production in 2011 was 87,500,000 bpd (barrels per day) and U.S. production was 7,800,000 bpd, or 8.91%. That places us behind only behind Saudi Arabia and Russia in terms of production.

Now, let's examine what happens when we double production as you suggested. Doubling U.S. production to 15,600,00 bpd results in new global oil production of 95,300,000 bpd (adding 7,800,000 in new U.S. production to the total). That means the U.S. share of production would be 16.4% (rounded to nearest tenth of one percent). That would make us the world's largest oil producer. Tripling production would result in global production of 103,100,000 bpd and U.S production of 23,400,000 bpd, or 22.7%. This is all assuming current levels.

So looking at the above, you're saying the doubling U.S. oil production would not affect oil prices? You're kidding, right?

Now, could we double production? I think we could. I don't know about tripling production. However, the 2% of reserves/use 20% of the world's oil nonsense is just that...nonsense. Those are proven reserves. We have tens of billions of barrels of oil that we're quite sure exists, but are not "proven" reserves. Secondly, proven reserves have a history of being much greater than originally "proven" over the years.

In fact, let's go further (or actually, not as far). Let's assume we increase U.S. oil production by 50%. Then we'd produce 11,700,000 bpd, or 12.9% of the new total. That would still make us the world's largest oil producer.


Quote:

And my suggestion to add population to the equation would make the production levels drop, so it supports your argument a little better. According to the graph and the fact that the US population has continued to increase, oil production per capita has been falling over those ten years. I was just being honest about that.

Is that to account for demand? I think that's already accounted for just based on how much is consumed.
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post #199 of 219
Thread Starter 
Nice short video on US oil production- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn6w7...eature=related
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post #200 of 219
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Sure. And the psychotic episode of a Jet Blue pilot is going to cause us to 'change our thoughts' about Air Travel.

Oh my, what a perfect ANALogy.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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