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Ex Apple engineer claims Steve Jobs rejected new Apple TV UI 5 years ago [u] - Page 2

post #41 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:06pm
U jelly Margolis?
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post #42 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I just don't get why they wouldn't have just gone with a direct iOS lookalike though, you know?

Something like this.

Those mockups are brilliant.

What I like most about them (or, what I like least about this 4th AppleTV UI) is that they advertise movies to rent and buy on the main screen. That should all be kept under the iTunes Store Movies listing.

They should also make it more clear that Movies, TV Shows and Music are pointing you to the iTunes Store, not your already purchased or networked content. Are they all in the same button or do you have to go to Computers for it? I don't know because it's not obvious.

I do like their 16:9 buttons since HDTVs are mostly that aspect ratio or similar, but yours are more familiar and feel less cluttered with more space between icons and 15 instead of 20 icons when showing a full page.

I also like your ticker and widget, which would be a great way to add Dashboard like overlay so long as they had a quick method to call it and then remove it.

"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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post #43 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:11pm
I can only say I think that the latest interface if pretty decent on my 50 inch Plasma Panasonic.

The latest Apple TV is pretty darn good.

Not sure if it's the 'last' word on the ATV interface. I suspect IF Apple bring out there own TV then this one is merely the 'placeholder' for it and a more app/iOS style interface...

Lemon Bon Bon.
You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
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post #44 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:21pm
"Easier than ever to use" does not automatically mean good design. A user interface must also be non-fatiguing and pleasing to look at for long periods of time AND also be easy to use. Regardless of its easy usability there are some folks who don't find this new UI as being pleasing to look at and that alone is a departure from other Apple products that excelled at both.

Let's hope Apple reads these on-line discussions and pays more attention to the visual impact of their UI.
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post #45 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:24pm
This is complete bs!
All of a sudden the appl tv's UI is crap.
The haters are out in full force.
Yet despite all this tash talk the apple tv wil still sell like hotcakes.
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post #46 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:26pm
Think of reverse air play...

Then the UI might make more sense soon?
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post #47 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:29pm
Also, iPhoto for Pad has the most functional, intelligent, and gorgeous UI I've ever seen on any Apple app. Apple is doing the best work today it has ever done, with or without Steve Jobs. Enough with this concern-trolling bullshit.
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post #48 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:42pm
I'm a true believer in "if it isn't broke don't fix it". There was a reason why the Apple TV was so popular. But Apple has made major guy changes in the past not only to their OS but to Premium applications. Final Cut Pro X was a major change as a good example. We will have to see in the long run. Hopefully Apple wont turn into another Microsoft as to design things that cause the end user more grief than pleasure.
An Apple man since 1977
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An Apple man since 1977
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post #49 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:46pm
New, old UI, all the same. It takes 256 clicks to find a movie or show.

Great line. So true.
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post #50 of 151
3/24/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by va_plinker View Post

Think of reverse air play...

Then the UI might make more sense soon?

I don't see of any reason it would go the other way.

AirPlay mirroring is the best this to happen to the AppleTV UI. People wanted a web browser on the AppleTV and now they have it.


"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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post #51 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:00pm
I think Steve Jobs's irritation with this style of UI for the TV would've been based on his gut-feeling. Being consistent with the iOS grid of icons is an obvious and easy choice, but Jobs made Apple special by pushing relentlessly to find the un-obvious choice. Having said that, my wife and friends (who also own iPhones/iPads) immediately discovered previously buried features as if they were new. After the update, I heard "Oh cool, they added Radio stations!"

If I can be so presumptuous, I would guess the new UI would feel slightly clumsy to Jobs. In a small form factor, a grid of colorful icons is inviting and helpful. On a large TV screen, big square icons start to feel more cheap and remedial. I imagine Jobs perceived TVs as a more sophisticated visual experience and deserving of a more elegant UI treatment on the level of elite home theater hardware.
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post #52 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:04pm
I swear the first thing I thought when I saw that new TV UI was:
"That doesn't look like something Steve would have approved."

And its real simple: the colors of the UI are competing with the colors in the movie posters. It ends up as a cacophony of colors...and the eye doesn't know where to land.

Sorry but most posters on this thread aren't qualified to comment. Design isn't just opinion and it can't be determined by anecdotal nonsense like, "My kids like 'em." You either have a trained and sophisticated design eye -- or you don't. (very few do)

This UI sucks and is a bad sign moving forward.

A good design will appeal to about 95% of its audience...and won't provoke 1/3 of the fanbase to say: "it sucks!"

Unless...it sucks.
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post #53 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

AirPlay mirroring is the best this to happen to the AppleTV UI. People wanted a web browser on the AppleTV and now they have it.



What app is that showing Earth in the solar system?? Very cool looking!
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post #54 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:09pm
Why is that Steve Jobs is dead everything Apple does is attacked with comments about how Jobs wouldn't have approved this or that. I don't think it's likely everyone at Apple was waiting for Jobs to die so they could do things their way. This isn't like your parents leaving you in charge for the first time. There is no reason to expect Tim Cook to rebel against everything Apple has built up.

"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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post #55 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rlob View Post

What app is that showing Earth in the solar system?? Very cool looking!

That is Solar Walk - 3D Solar System ($2.99).
Another great feature for an iPad/Apple TV combo is dual-screen mode. That is MetalStorm: Wingman (Free).

"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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post #56 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:14pm
I would rather have the Computers tab replaced with Photos.

The TV shows, Movies, Music for shared computers would be listed under those icons.

IMO, that would be much simpler, especially for users who may not know the particular item is on a shared computer.
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post #57 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

After about a week with it, I have to agree that the new UI grates. I miss the simplicity and subtlety of the previous one.

Interestingly, however, my kids (both teenagers) prefer the new UI.

Can't win them all, I suppose...... \

Yeah, they probably also prefer the new Star Wars trilogy to the old one.

"Can't innovate anymore my ass!" -- Phil Schiller

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"Can't innovate anymore my ass!" -- Phil Schiller

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post #58 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

I swear the first thing I thought when I saw that new TV UI was:
"That doesn't look like something Steve would have approved."

And its real simple: the colors of the UI are competing with the colors in the movie posters. It ends up as a cacophony of colors...and the eye doesn't know where to land.

Sorry but most posters on this thread aren't qualified to comment. Design isn't just opinion and it can't be determined by anecdotal nonsense like, "My kids like 'em." You either have a trained and sophisticated design eye -- or you don't. (very few do)

This UI sucks and is a bad sign moving forward.

A good design will appeal to about 95% of its audience...and won't provoke 1/3 of the fanbase to say: "it sucks!"

Unless...it sucks.

Bullshit. You'll find a large percentage designers that will tell you that skeuomorphism is the worst thing ever (ie. iBooks). But another percentage will tell you there's nothing wrong with it, and consumers have shown that they love it. I used to work in a branding agency. Trust me, there's never any 'consensus' by 'design experts'. There would be arguments everyday between the most skilled, talented, and seasoned designers about the most fundamental of things, as well as the tiniest details. Being a designer myself, I'd also say that you're wrong about this new UI being objectively worse than the previous from a design standpoint. Design means so many things to different people, and when it comes to UI, functionality is just as important and plays a huge role in the design process.
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post #59 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:25pm
FWIW, I believe a good UI is as intuitive and "invisible" as possible. If you have to think about it, if it draws attention to itself, or if it leaves you wondering how to do something, then it is less than that. For this reason, an easier interface is a better one, regardless of how ugly it is or isn't. People who need the stimulation of a complicated UI can buy something else.

"Can't innovate anymore my ass!" -- Phil Schiller

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"Can't innovate anymore my ass!" -- Phil Schiller

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post #60 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:35pm



The Devil Wears Prada is the top movie on iTunes? Bullshit! Tell me it ain't so!
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post #61 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:36pm
I think Apple is trying to get a jump on Microsoft 8's form, fit & feel of its tiles in the startup menu. At this point, its hard to say who has copied whom, but it appears both may end up looking very similar with similar purpose & function for the home page. I think Apple will handle the start-up menu issue differently, & I don't see them eventually going to touch-screen TV for say, an 80" screen.
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post #62 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellya74u View Post

I think Apple is trying to get a jump on Microsoft 8's form, fit & feel of its tiles in the startup menu. At this point, its hard to say who has copied whom, but it appears both may end up looking very similar with similar purpose & function for the home page. I think Apple will handle the start-up menu issue differently, & I don't see them eventually going to touch-screen TV for say, an 80" screen.

Apple certainly went all in with iPhone OS back in 2007 but what MS has been doing since WinPh7 are active tiles which are distinctly different from the static icons, save for badges, that Apple has used.

I can see how MS could have started to follow Apple's lead here but they quickly evolved past it. If anything it's a copy of Flipboard which first appeared in 2010, but I have to think that it's not likely Apple copied from them either, or vice versa.

"Goodbyeee…"

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"Goodbyeee…"

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post #63 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:41pm
So SJ rejected this before there was iOS, before there was an app store. Maybe then it was rejected because you could provide for the limited number of choices using the previouse drop down menu design. Now with the potential of hundreds of choices, that design previous design is not practical. He never said why it was rejected. I guess it was in a different context.
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post #64 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Thank goodness Margolis is here to step into the spotlight when “nobody else” at Apple says no to bad design, and the only person who ever did is gone.

Well yes, let's have him get is 15 minutes of fame with a statement that he can't prove and Apple, due to their cult of secrecy, will never refute
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post #65 of 151
3/24/12 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

I don't see what all of the fuss is about. pull down menus is backwards to me. I think the icons can be square rather than rectangle. Plus, if we can easily delete the one's we don't use, since I don't watch professional sports, those can be eliminated.

They are baked in so they would never let you delete them. But if you could just reorder Tim to the bottom that would be good
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post #66 of 151
3/24/12 at 2:01pm
Amen, brother. Amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

How much more of these pseudo-revelations of a post-mortem Jobs will we have to read about?
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post #67 of 151
3/24/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

They are baked in so they would never let you delete them. But if you could just reorder Tim to the bottom that would be good

BREAKING: Staunch Apple fans call for Tim Cook's marginalization!
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post #68 of 151
3/24/12 at 2:16pm
So Steve Jobs rejected the iPad too when he decided that they should make the iPhone instead?
The one thing we know it wasn't the UI of the Apple TV before. If something not right at the time it doesnt means it cant be good later.
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post #69 of 151
3/24/12 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

I swear the first thing I thought when I saw that new TV UI was:
"That doesn't look like something Steve would have approved."

And its real simple: the colors of the UI are competing with the colors in the movie posters. It ends up as a cacophony of colors...and the eye doesn't know where to land.

Sorry but most posters on this thread aren't qualified to comment. Design isn't just opinion and it can't be determined by anecdotal nonsense like, "My kids like 'em." You either have a trained and sophisticated design eye -- or you don't. (very few do)

This UI sucks and is a bad sign moving forward.

A good design will appeal to about 95% of its audience...and won't provoke 1/3 of the fanbase to say: "it sucks!"

Unless...it sucks.

By that criteria the fully Jobs vetted OS X rollout was a complete design disaster. And we are well into the era of bad signs.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #70 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post



The Devil Wears Prada is the top movie on iTunes? Bullshit! Tell me it ain't so!



You can be sure:
The six movies were chosen for variety and for their appeal to a wide variety of demographics.
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post #71 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:22pm
I don't care that it is now a grid of icons but the implementation is crap. Most TV screens would be 40" or more and they can't fit all the icons on the screen ? Massive huge plates for icons, reminds me of Lotus Notes ... I think I'm going to be sick.
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post #72 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

After about a week with it, I have to agree that the new UI grates. I miss the simplicity and subtlety of the previous one.

Interestingly, however, my kids (both teenagers) prefer the new UI.

Can't win them all, I suppose...... \

No offense - I'm sure yours are exemplary - but taste isn't standard equipment on teenagers.
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post #73 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrections View Post

how ridiculous....sj also liked the first versions of ical, which were crap. Sj was not unerring in his design judgement. Flower power imacs? Hockey puck mouse?

bingo.
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post #74 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

It is a startlingly bad UI from almost any point of view and for a variety of reasons.

People here took me to task when I said Steve would never approve of it. It seems I might have been correct though.

I have been taken to task for os x bad ui desicions repeateadly here by the usual suspects, and I also claimed Steve would have never approved... For some things we will never now if he would or wouldn't. I sure hope the people who can take the right decisions reach the right executive places at apple. I have suggested that apple, esp. so in os x, should offer far more choice for customization than they are currently offering since very apparently the guy who had the flair to say no to bad design choices is no longer with us.

The interface of the atv though is particularly bad, and it amuses me to no end what I read here from some people that seem like they are prepared to rationalize away ANY current design choice of apple. I think apple could issue an atv ui with a static turd in the centre of the screen and they would still find something good to say about it along the lines of say... well you 've looked at what a turd google tv is, at least apple are open about it.
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post #75 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Trust me, there's never any 'consensus' by 'design experts'...Design means so many things to different people, and when it comes to UI, functionality is just as important and plays a huge role in the design process.


If good design was different for every person...there would be:
-No professional designers
-No art schools
-No Apple Computer

Design is predicated upon both universal principles as well as adopted cultural nuances. A good designer must know and master both.

The design of an Apple Store, the design of ipods and ibook Air...the iOS GUI ...appeal to almost everyone...because they employ well established design principles.

The reason this iTV design fails so miserably is it's a bastardized combination of two clashing designs: the Rounded bright and colorful icons in the lower half...and the rectangular (equally colorful) colors at the top.

This design is in fact a departure from the iOS design, where there is symmetry and consistency--cubic icons against a neutral background with no other visual clutter.
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post #76 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kymcha View Post

I don't care that it is now a grid of icons but the implementation is crap. Most TV screens would be 40" or more and they can't fit all the icons on the screen ? Massive huge plates for icons, reminds me of Lotus Notes ... I think I'm going to be sick.

The scale of the icons are grossly oversized. However, the market for the Apple HDTV that will be developed is yet to materialize.

You have to envision your iPad/iPod Touch/iPhone being your Inspector Panel and the HDTV interfacing directly with the AppleTV and/or in conjunction needing to test different form factors and Application categories traditionally perceived to be the sole domain of TV and Movies.
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post #77 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:38pm
I trekked off to the local shrine of  to buy one but so loathed the UI I departed empty handed, not feeling the need for any more ugly complexity in my life. It felt like trying on cheap shoes.

Really A screen the size of a wall, and I'm supposed to scroll? I don't think so.
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post #78 of 151
3/24/12 at 3:44pm
Looks like the AppleInsider copy and paste job forgot to include the Next Web update with a clarification by Mr. Margolis:

"Update: In a comment, Michael Margolis clarified the UI and the elements Steve Jobs took issue with:

The new UI shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. There is a clear effort at Apple to make everything match the look and feel of their popular iOS products – starting with Lion and increasing momentum with Mountain Lion.

To be clear – he didn’t like the original grid. This was before the iPhone was popular and before the iPad even existed.

Given that the iPad is far more successful than the AppleTV, migrating the AppleTV to look more like the iPad was probably a very smart move – even if some of the users of the old UI don’t prefer the new one."

Oh, there you go - all this insinuation that Apple design is going down the tubes without SJ is rubbish.
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post #79 of 151
3/24/12 at 4:59pm
What AppleTV really needs is a Spotlight-like top level search. From the home screen, type in a string that will show results from Computers (movies, tv, music, photos), Netflix, iTunes movies/tv, and so on. Too many screen to click through without this.

Of course, Siri would be nice too, but I'm sure they are saving that for the actual TV...
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post #80 of 151
3/24/12 at 5:03pm
Used to be a subtle and calming "landing site", "Home Page", "Desktop", whatever you want to call it.
When you would flip your 40" TV screen onto the AppleTV port; or when you would back your menu button all the way back to the "main screen" and then walk away, it was always a beautiful screen that I would not mind leaving displayed on my 40" TV all day long.

Now... It's a fucking billboard. A bunch of ugly fucking corporate logos and poorly designed icons. A bunch of shit that I don't want to have to weed through every time I want to make what was, previously, a simple menu choice.

I don't give a rat's ass if Harry Potter is the top movie. I don't want it on my default AppleTV screen unless I purposely am asking the question; "What's the top movie?"

Yes. It is bad design. It just is.
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