Ex Apple engineer claims Steve Jobs rejected new Apple TV UI 5 years ago [u] - Page 3

Actually what is rubbish is the insitance that a vast number of apple's user base who are despising the inane iOS-ification of pretty much anything apple, resulting in some pretty bad ui choices -with the atv exemplifying this- are somehow against apple, or seriously misguided, or behind the times, or whatever...and the short sightedness by apple's management thinking that if they make everything look like iOS, regardless of the requirements of the appliance they make, they will sell more. They will sell more in the short term but in the long term they 'll dilute so much of what apple is about, pushing the limits of innovation and design for consumer products as well as NOT pandering to immediate market expectations that it will cost them dearly.

Apple doesn't have to be a boutique tech manufacturer like they used to, but they can't either be an everything to everyone manufacturer as they are aiming to be now. The brand will go to shit if everything looks like ios (which is also starting to date) eventually. There is a fine line between uniformity of style and banality. In the case of the atv uniformity to ios means interfaces that are neither very functional nor very well designed. Is that what post SJ apple is aiming at? No matter how much Margolis sugar coats his bitting and revealing comments, it takes a stretch of the imagination to consider this a smart move.

I think the new UI is absolutely awful. The Icons are too big, some are half revealed ( which is the worst bit).
Some icons hold menus while others start apps. When the icons go into the the old menu it looks like a half-arsed attempt at something that never quite came off.

The AppleTV is a great device and can't understand how a company renowned for great design came up with a UI so crap.

1) Apple should sue this guy for slander. And who the hell fact checked his information. Anyone can claim Steve says or did this or that. Who the hell cares? And who really knows from guy OUT of the Apple circle for 5 f'ing years. 5 years people.

2) I have both ATV2 and ATV3. I happy for the improved interface as it flows way faster but clearly, clearly it's not a finished or refined interface.

3) My marketing background tells me the interface smells like a intermediary to something really cool and unlocked. The UI is moving the consumer into the device people not the other way around.

4) Reality check - these forums are populated by core consumers who either love or hate Apple. Working as an exec in the entertainment industry has taught me that while keeping the core happy is important it's the mass market that pushes the growth in a product forward.

5) The whining and moaning. Really. I love Apple TV and you will all live what's coming so be patient and stop having tantrums. Thankfully Apple doesn't react to such whines. Geez us

6) As predicted - I already got a breaking news email from Seeking Alpha broadcasting this to analysts - insane.

They are taking design cues for the pinnacle of design that is ms...sad...



arketp ftw!!!!

I guess that's the answer to everything these days for apple...

I'd love to know how you two would strengthen Apple's ecosystem.

By becoming Android developers. Then their taste and experience would be right at home.

I don't think that they are trying to be an everythig to everyone manufacturer. Their range of products is narrow.

They seem to aim at the profitablility sweet spots. They sell whatever makes the most profits. Upper midrange computers in luxurious packaging, easy-to-use smartphones, easy-to-use tablets and music players are all they got.

They do not really sell out of a narrow range - but the range includes good-to-high volumes and large profit percentages.

They have a niche, and they don't stray into others quickly. Their niche is high-profit items which sell in reasonable volume. So far, it has worked very well for them.

I would not expect that they will change quickly, but I also would expect them to use whatever elements they feel will increase volume and profits together. If that means iOS everywhere, they will do it.

The engineer in the article failed to mention he was the one that came up with the god awful UI.

Thus is why is is now "former" engineer.

I think that is very accurate.

I think that is an excellent suggestion. Even more so if the interface can be customised using an iOS app or a Lion app rather than having to use the small remote control which can be a bit of a pain in the arse at times. The more the Apple TV interface becomes like the iPad interface the better as far as I am concerned - with locks screens and multiple home screens.

It is obvious that the iOS based Apple TV software has this capability built in, so why not use it?

I don't mind the new UI.

If there are apps coming, the old pulldown menus would be really bad (REALLY BAD)

the new look lends itself to apps.

remember.. 5 years ago, there was no app store... now iOS, and MacOS have a smilar layout - pretty sure Jobs approved the phone, ipad and Launch Pad.

this supports the rumors that some kind of Apple TV (set?) was at least being considered
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...pple-tv-298300

Why would "a menu" called "Apps" be bad?

to whomever (not you Zither):

another example of a 10% post...

told you he is a worthy poster and NOT a troll or a hater or whatever name you wish to think him.

Prof just curious what makes a great UI?

Just because one disgruntled ex engineer said it was rejected by SJ meant it a bad UI.

Do you know how Apple will be enhancing it a few years down the road? SJ is not always right and ex engineer who mentioning this may be out to damage the reputation of Apple.

Hindsight makes perfect vision so how about telling what great UI Apple should be developing tomorrow?

I'm totally ok with mine. I typically use the remote app to navigate around and since this is my first ATV i'm not wedded to the former UI.

He tried to make it sound like Steve didn't like like that UI and dumb Tim Cook and/or dumb Jonny Ive decided to use it anyway and that there's only one person designing such things (and I guess he's an idiot). Then recants and says 'oh no that's not the truth'

it feels like we need to create a new verb for things kinds of things. shall we call it to daisey something. After our fav not so truth teller.

Very valid complaint. It is not intuitive at all. Tallest suggestion of using icons more like iOS would potentially solve that by putting it in the same purple icon for buying/renting and the same video/music/photos icons folks know

I preferred the old interface as well. It was much more organized.

The icon grid is great, I just don't like the styling. Hoping they're a bit of a stop-gap so that the REAL release of AppleTV this fall can blow people's minds.

Bring back the old interface - just in 1080P.
Why have those stupid icons if there isn't an App store or a way to delete the wants you don't want?
Ridiculous.
Btw I hate the Lion icons on my Mac too- makes the Mac now look like a computer for idiots.

I like the new UI... Thanks for the update, Apple.

You really don't like much, do you?

He likes trolling and bashing Apple. Does that count?

You're one of them who gets it!

The new UI looks like Apple is trying to rip off Win8 or WindowsPhone OS, it lacks proper structure and organization and is ugly as hell, instead we have all on one screen clutter. Barf!

Ever since Apple started violating its own UI guidelines we have a steadily accelerating trend of a disintegrating UI consistency, and cutesy but utterly non-functional real world metaphors.
In a few years Apple will reinvent M$' Bob (if you're old enough to remember that disaster of a UI)

Why is it that Apple makes drool worthy hardware but their software UI can be so bad? There's this aesthetic dichotomy between the two which boggles the mind considering how design obsessed Steve was. Even in some of his keynote presentations he would use 3D charts with fake wood panelling which looked awful. Apple really needs to get their hardware and software in sync (stylistically).

Yeah, if Steve was still alive he would never have approved of people doing that.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._steve_do.html


Having fewer icons per row makes it faster to select the one you want.


How exactly do we know that this is a post-SJ decision? He worked on the next iPhone before he died. The point made in the article update was that Steve rejected the grid design for all the products including the iPhone and iPad.

So, for all the people siding with Jobs on this, presumably they'd rather iOS and Launchpad didn't use icon grids either? They'd rather their iMac was called MacMan? They're happy with their SJ-approved iPhone 4 antenna kill-switch? Happy with the little fat iPod they made? The puck mouse? Flowery iMac? The Garageband fake wood effect? The brushed metal UI?

If the ATV UI is so bad, why does Jony Ive not step in? He apparently has a nice TV in his den, surely he wouldn't stand for such a bad design that he has to use himself.

Lose the crap ui elements.

Apparently Jony Ive doesn't have enough executive decision power when it comes to interface design. Scott Forestahl, Eddie Cue and Gregh Federichi seem to be in charge of this.

I think the update to the article is an issue of diplomacy. I am sure the right phone calls and emails reached Margolis.

In terms of SJ's blunders, most of them are open to discussion. The fat ipod or the puck mouse I dislike as well, but I kinda like the flowery mac. Steve pushed for an even slimmer iphone design according to Ive's prototype and placed the antenna around the phone. The kill switch was a matter of the antennae engineers then not executing well then on these design requirements. In the 4S they re-engineered slightly and the problem was solved. The difference of this error to that of the atv interface is that on one hand someone pushed for a slimmer more cutting edge product, with very unusual and innovative antennae placement and this motivation of pushing the limits of innovation resulted in a mistake, while on the other hand with atv someone is very apparently pushing not for innovation, but for the ui to look more like ios for marketing and sales reasons purely, and the end result is an interface that looks bad and isn't as functional as it should be either.

In my mind misteps from wanting to innovate and create something aesthetically compelling and unprecedented are preferable to misteps stemming from the urge to make everyone look like the iphone so (presumably) you ship more units. One is a bold gutsy move that pushes mainstream technology, the other is a marketing dept decision that chokes any good ui design potential and innovation by commanding it to align and conform with available standards, simply by virtue of the market being accustomed to them.

Since SJ got ill there have been a number of bad design decisions at Apple that IMHO SJ would have rectified....one of which is the universally disliked new iCal interface which has nothing to do with Apple's basic design philosophy and has taken a step backward by getting rid of the mini calendar. This is a worrying trend and one which I hope is dealt with by perhaps making Ive responsible for approving everything just as Jobs did including interface design.
While I am at it - getting rid of mobileme galleries and keychain syncing is another ridiculous decision....integration and ease of use is why I came to use Apple to begin with. Divesting themselves of truly useful integration tools can only do harm.

Do you mean 'apparently' because he allowed this UI to pass or because it's been reported that's the case? Steve Jobs himself said Ive has more operational power than anyone else at Apple:

'He called Jonathan Ive, Apples design chief, his spiritual partner at Apple. He told Isaacson that Ive had more operation power at Apple than anyone besides Jobs himself that theres no one at the company who can tell Ive what to do. That, says Jobs, is the way I set it up.'

http://www.edibleapple.com/2011/10/2...es-steve-jobs/

That page also has a good quote about why companies can fail and I suspect the further on Apple goes without a new revolution, we will hear more allusions to the artists being ignored in favour of the sales guys.


It might seem less functional just now but if they add items, drop-down menus would get very cluttered. An icon view can be customised to put your favourite items only a few small clicks away. Step 1 is building a scalable design, the menu system was not scalable.

I'd say it is because of the shape of the HDTV being wider than it is high. I think it looks better this way than having square icons.

I like your reasoning!


No need to apologize, as you state this is the way to present it and make your point come across.


I copied the URL to my Mini and watched this post on my 37" HDTV. Of course that didn't truly make it the experience with all the forums formatting so I opened a
few pictures in Preview and showed them fullscreen. Hmm, at first I thought the canvas wasn't the best choice since I can 'discern the pixels' but after looking at it
from 3m/10ft I think you made the right decision. It looks good, but in the middle is just isn't great as there are highlights in there that look a bit like it's pixelated
(or whatever the right word is here).

I don't think the weather widget is 'needed' as I have an iPad lying on the table or couch to control my Mini and if I want to know what the weather is I'll grab that, or
my iPhone. The clock is good thinking and nicely simplistic done. The Apple logo mid-top reminds me of the Rhapsody days and made me want to click it (!)

I think the size of the icons is good, certainly do not make them bigger. The 36pt title is large enough, the 'caption line' for the number of episodes and such might
be too small for people without 20/20 vision. I'm fortunate and still don't wear glasses but the smaller line might be a little too small for those who do.


Would love to see what improvements you come up with. I think the spotlight search is great, but with the screen mostly blank you might want to add something to
it. Perhaps latest additions to users iTunes library or ... I don't know, latest purchases, whatever.

Sorry that I don't respond to all your ideas, too little time. Did read it all, and like it.


Sorry to hear you think you lost it. Doesn't look to be the case to me, but of course you know how you feel. All I can say is that with your informative posts, and
particular with this one you are on your way to get that spark back, even though I believe you already have it, otherwise this post/work would not be read by us all.
For that, I thank you.

Cheers,
PhiBoogie

I guess the person didn't read the post, only looked at the mockups. People in Marketing tend to do that.

Actually that was real wood panelling in his 3D charts, make from trees he personally selected and were harvested by virgins.

The world wasn't comfortable with the grid-of-icons concept? You mean it wasn't comfortable with the exact same style used by the Mac/PC desktop. Or the same style as the Finder/Windows Explorer in icon view? Really? That's your argument?

I agree. It is difficult to tell which icon is highlighted. Hopefully there aren't more rejected ideas in the pipeline.

One thing I noticed when going from the old Dish Network DVRs to the newer Vip 922 was that for hand held remote navigation (i.e. arrow key navigation) a linear list is much easier than a gird. For a touch interface or a mouse interface the grid is probably better but with arrow keys it's more effort to constantly be moving be moving up/down left/right, instead of just up/down.

My problem with the new AppleTV UI is that it's inconsistent.

- The Main Screen grid
- The TV and Movie sub menus
- The "classic" sub menu for Computers

They all look radically different from one another. WTF??? Where's the clear vision? The follow through? There is absolutely no need for each sub menu to have a unique look. They need to pick one look and stick with it.

As it stands, the current UI reminds me of Windows 8 in that it used multiple UI's. BTW, that's not a complement.