AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama is stoking racial tensions to get reelected
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Obama is stoking racial tensions to get reelected - Page 2

post #41 of 169
3/26/12 at 3:03pm
I'm just simply waiting for the other shoe to fall.

I care little about the racism argument though the "f%^& coons" comment taking in context with Zimmerman's diatribe about "assholes always getting away" is going to doom him.

Even if Zimmerman avoids criminal prosecution he's going to ignominiously lose any civil case that comes up. He's done like a baked potato.

In the end everyone loses. Martin, Zimmerman, The Sanford PD and local citizens.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #42 of 169
3/26/12 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I care little about the racism argument though the "f%^& coons" comment taking in context with Zimmerman's diatribe about "assholes always getting away" is going to doom him.
.

Who cares if he said that? ... Nothing illegal about calling people names.
The fact is, he chased someone down and shot him ... I don't care if he liked the persons skin color or not, as that has no bearing whatsoever on the crime.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #43 of 169
3/26/12 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Who cares if he said that? ... Nothing illegal about calling people names.
The fact is, he chased someone down and shot him ... I don't care if he liked the persons skin color or not, as that has no bearing whatsoever on the crime.

Agreed. Race it or should be irrelevant here. One person shot another person is dead.

The relevant factors will be whether the shooting was accidental or intentional and, if intentional defensive or not.

There may be other mitigating or aggravating factors such as whether the shooter actively chased after the victim, etc.

But, agreed, race is a red herring here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #44 of 169
3/26/12 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Who cares if he said that? ... Nothing illegal about calling people names.
The fact is, he chased someone down and shot him ... I don't care if he liked the persons skin color or not, as that has no bearing whatsoever on the crime.

His only defense comes down to "was he justified or not?". He clearly has no authority to touch or detain anyone who is not committing a crime.

The "self defense" claimed is flimsy if he provoked the action after being told not to pursue by the 911 agent.

Name calling is not illegal but words can make or break your case as they can provide clues into someone's potential motives and at this point Zimmerman's motives seem rather nebulous.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #45 of 169
3/26/12 at 4:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ya know...if you take "capitalism"...and drop "capit" and add an "r" and replace the "l" with a "c'...you have "racism."







I don't even know what the fuck that means. It's like these people have protest sign dice and they're randomly putting together combinations of words of things things they don't like into some bigger combination of something they REALLY don't like.


In fairness that was a typo...it should read "you can't have capitalism without racism."
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #46 of 169
3/26/12 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

In fairness that was a typo...it should read "you can't have capitalism without racism."

Not sure that changes the meaning (whatever that is). It's a pretty ignorant claim for someone to make.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #47 of 169
3/26/12 at 4:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

What I meant was "you" as in each individual person that thinks about this case.
Race only matters to bigots.

Yes... Jessie and Al and friends are bringing race into it ... but not because race BELONG's in the debate ... only because that is their default position for EVERYTHING.
The fact that they do this ALL THE TIME shows that THEY are the bigots and racists. Most other people would be happy to prosecute the crime based on what happened rather than on the color of one's skin or their religion or whatever other bigoted ideas Jessie and Al want to come up with.

Got it. We agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks



"I'll think of Trayvon® every time I cash my royalty check."

That is absolutely disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

There seems to be a general trend amongst the right wingers here to default to blaming the victim. That comes as little surprise, given that the victim is someone who doesn't fit into the preferred mold... ie "Trayvon Martin is not one of us".

A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."

And what of the other witness? Why do you dismiss one and not the other? Was this witness interviewed by police? The point is we simply don't know. The process needs to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Read the thread. It is readily apparent that those who have bought into institutionalized racism automatically *assume* that Martin was a gang-banger, or a criminal, or had bad intent, because of his color, his attire, perhaps even his age or all these combined.


What the hell? No one here has done that. In fact, I've not heard anyone anywhere that has done that. If anything, I'm inclined to think Trayvon was truly an innocent victim. In the very least, Zimmerman was extremely overzealous and reckless. The only point I and many others have made is that Jesse "Hymie" Jackson and Al "White Interlopers" Sharpton are stoking racial hatred and demanding and eye for an eye when we still don't know the facts. And we've got the President of the United States joining in with...wait for it...racially coded language.

Quote:
There has been endless repetitive indoctrination by the media, especially in the last 30 years, to demonize young black males, and people default to what is comfortable and convenient, an easy solution that fits their often insular, filtered world view.

That I agree with. But that doesn't mean this was a racially motivated killing, or that the police are racist. It may mean that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, and that is a serious (and separate) problem.

Quote:

Oh, and gated communities are for those who prefer to filter their existences from people like Trayvon.... whose profile fitted the description of a person who should not be there... despite having permission to be there.

You're really showing your ignorance here. This was a mixed-race community. Secondly, your implication that people who live in gated communities are racists is outrageous.

Quote:

What kind of precedent can be set by the complete lack of justice in this case? Trigger happy bozos employed by private security can fire at people as a first resort, then give the excuse of "self defense" despite contrary reports by witnesses, and expect the police to do nothing.

Lack of justice? Why...because there wasn't an immediate arrest? The problem here is that you have joined the rest of racial instigators in presuming guilt, and presuming hatred in the shooter's heart. You've jumped right on the bandwagon. You don't give a shit about the facts, which is evidenced by you completely ignoring the OTHER (and original) witness's claim that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

Quote:

Furthermore, the lack of *any* action in this case re. the law, has been a huge step BACKWARD in race relations. It has been one month since the killing. There has been no justice and by the way things are going, there probably will be no justice. Is this acceptable anywhere? Is this OK in a western industrial nation?

A special prosecutor has been appointed. The case is not over by any stretch. But that's not good enough for people like you that want blood.

Quote:

There are some folk in here trying to defend the indefensible, by sticking up for a callous killer.

Who the fuck appointed you judge and jury? You have no idea if Zimmerman was a callous killer. You have no idea if Trayvon was a sweet innocent boy, or a kid that had been suspended multiple times from school for offenses including drugs, vandalism and suspicion of burglary. None of this may matter...in the end Zimmerman may have killed him because he was black, because he had on a hoodie, because he was over zealous, or because he was a psycho. WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW. Unlike you, I want to see what happens with the process. I want to see the facts as they become available.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I did.




Maybe you could help me by pointing to some specific posts or quotes.





I'm personally reserving my judgement until I've had the opportunity to see and hear all of the facts that are available. Even then the case might not be clear. I haven't been following the case very closely.




Again, I'll reserve judgement. I suspect that the suspect isn't going anywhere right now and the police are perhaps re-investigating but trying to avoid a knee-jerk reaction also.

It's true that it's quite possible justice will not prevail in this case. That would be bad. But I'm not assuming that's the case at this point.

Well done and I agree. No one here has "blamed the victim." But there are facts (or what appear to be facts at present) that don't exactly make this case cut and dried. It's possibly Zimmerman is a psycho, or a racist, or over zealous, or all three. It's possible Martin attacked him...and it's possible he did not. It's also possible that Zimmerman was merely over zealous and suddenly felt threatened for some reason (perhaps he thought Martin had a gun, etc). It's possible the police chief was incompetent, or a racist, or neither. We can speculate, but that's useless. We need the facts. We need to see how the process plays out.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #48 of 169
3/26/12 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

My impression of Obama leads me to believe that if this kid had been white, he would still have said the same thing. Because he has class.

And that eats some people up.



I think many Americans would do well to learn something from Obama. He really has class.

And that really eats some people up.






ps

He isn't talking about color, and that was my point. Other people are trying to make a big fuss, a "distraction". Wonder why?

One possibility: the candidates the GOP has this year just don't stand up, and even the GOP knows it. A really angry, sexually-frustrated "Catholic" and a say-anything-to-win, completely out of touch with regular folks guy who isn't interested in being POTUS, just padding his resume. Should I mention the poster boy for family values Newt?

Another possibility...


pps

Yeah, I am responding to my own post. Guess I like talking to myself, OK?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #49 of 169
3/26/12 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I think many Americans would do well to learn something from Obama. He really has class.

And that really eats some people up.


I disagree. He's classless and reeks of rank, cynical partisanship. He's arrogant and testy as well.

Quote:

ps

He isn't talking about color, and that was my point. Other people are trying to make a big fuss, a "distraction". Wonder why?

Bullshit. "America has soul searching to do?" "If I had a son, he might look like Trayvon? Are you kidding me, sir?

Quote:

One possibility: the candidates the GOP has this year just don't stand up. A really angry, sexually-frustrated Catholic and a say-anything-to-win guy who isn't interested in being POTUS, just padding his resume.

Another possibility...


pps

Yeah, I am responding to my own post. Guess I like talking to myself, OK?

Romney will be the nominee. Given that this is his second campaign and he's already independently wealthy, I highly doubt that he "doesn't want to be President."
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #50 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I'm just simply waiting for the other shoe to fall.

I care little about the racism argument though the "f%^& coons" comment taking in context with Zimmerman's diatribe about "assholes always getting away" is going to doom him.

Even if Zimmerman avoids criminal prosecution he's going to ignominiously lose any civil case that comes up. He's done like a baked potato.

In the end everyone loses. Martin, Zimmerman, The Sanford PD and local citizens.

The law does not lose it will still be there if no one doesn't do anything to change it.I would not want to be in Zimmerman's shoes.
Reply
Reply
post #51 of 169
3/27/12 at 6:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

The law does not lose it will still be there if no one doesn't do anything to change it.I would not want to be in Zimmerman's shoes.

To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #52 of 169
3/27/12 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I think the president should look upon all the children of america and see his sons and daughters.

It's almost like you are saying he should be the president for everyone instead of just for those that look like his imaginary son.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Read the thread. It is readily apparent that those who have bought into institutionalized racism automatically *assume* that Martin was a gang-banger, or a criminal, or had bad intent, because of his color, his attire, perhaps even his age or all these combined. There has been endless repetitive indoctrination by the media, especially in the last 30 years, to demonize young black males, and people default to what is comfortable and convenient, an easy solution that fits their often insular, filtered world view. Oh, and gated communities are for those who prefer to filter their existences from people like Trayvon.... whose profile fitted the description of a person who should not be there... despite having permission to be there.

You've been asked multiple times now to support these contentions and the point is that you can't. No one in this thread has been going around declaring Trayvon is probably X, Y or Z. At best all I've done is noted that the facts need to come out because one side of the story accompanied with a bunch of photos several years old aren't the complete facts on the matter. Likewise calling for mob justice is not appropriate. Have you looked into the demographic profile of Sanford or of this gated community? These aren't some McMansions with large rolling lawns. It clearly looks like either townhomes or condos with a bunch of common areas.

Quote:
What kind of precedent can be set by the complete lack of justice in this case? Trigger happy bozos employed by private security can fire at people as a first resort, then give the excuse of "self defense" despite contrary reports by witnesses, and expect the police to do nothing.

This is nonsense and hyperbole. You are projecting and suffering from your own "facts" that you have gotten only from your insular and filtered sources. You sound more paranoid than George Zimmerman right now.

Quote:
Furthermore, the lack of *any* action in this case re. the law, has been a huge step BACKWARD in race relations. It has been one month since the killing. There has been no justice and by the way things are going, there probably will be no justice. Is this acceptable anywhere? Is this OK in a western industrial nation? There are some folk in here trying to defend the indefensible, by sticking up for a callous killer.

One instance in one city is an exception and is not at all the rule. Your attempts at guilt here are insulting and consist of nothing more than demands based off that guilt. There is a grand jury investigating this. There is clearly more to the story than police took statement and left and there is clearly more being done than that even now. In the meantime there will be hundreds of cases of black on black crime and black on white crime and you won't care, speak or give a damn about any of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Who cares if he said that? ... Nothing illegal about calling people names.
The fact is, he chased someone down and shot him ... I don't care if he liked the persons skin color or not, as that has no bearing whatsoever on the crime.

The claim that he chased him down hasn't been substantiated from what I have read. He admits to following him while contacting the police and was told he doesn't need to do that. It hasn't been made clear whether he took that advice. In otherwords we don't know who confronted who.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

His only defense comes down to "was he justified or not?". He clearly has no authority to touch or detain anyone who is not committing a crime.

The "self defense" claimed is flimsy if he provoked the action after being told not to pursue by the 911 agent.

Name calling is not illegal but words can make or break your case as they can provide clues into someone's potential motives and at this point Zimmerman's motives seem rather nebulous.

As you note, IF is the question here. As for the motives and nebulous, doing a little math it won't be hard for his lawyer to make a pretty decent defense of them. Maybe it is just because I read the news rather than watching it but the numbers don't sound terrible when you do a little math. Much has been made of his number of calls to 911. However he was doing this neighborhood watch program for 6 years. You divide the number of calls by the timeframe and it shows he called once every six weeks. That doesn't sound like a paranoid nutcase. Seeing something suspicious once every six weeks doesn't sound crazy if you are investigating an entire neighborhood. The timeframe will help him with regard to his defense as well. He went six years without an incident. It makes it possible to declare that the change in that state was based on Trayvon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I think many Americans would do well to learn something from Obama. He really has class.

And that really eats some people up.
ps

He isn't talking about color, and that was my point. Other people are trying to make a big fuss, a "distraction". Wonder why?

One possibility: the candidates the GOP has this year just don't stand up, and even the GOP knows it. A really angry, sexually-frustrated "Catholic" and a say-anything-to-win, completely out of touch with regular folks guy who isn't interested in being POTUS, just padding his resume. Should I mention the poster boy for family values Newt?

Another possibility...

pps

Yeah, I am responding to my own post. Guess I like talking to myself, OK?

I suppose you make sense to youself. To everyone else it clearly sounds like you are trolling.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #53 of 169
3/27/12 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
Police believe Zimmerman was attacked by Martin

Quote:
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.

As others have noted, the above may not be entirely true, either. However, it would seem to have as much credibility as the stories that Trayvon was just walking back from the store, minding his own business.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #54 of 169
3/27/12 at 11:44am
Zimmerman a registered Democrat, self-identified Hispanic American

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #55 of 169
3/27/12 at 2:42pm
Nobody knows all of the full details in this case yet of course, but since everybody is speculating, I also have an opinion.

This case is very overblown, and frankly, it doesn't concern me much at all, since I'm not an ignorant race baiter, unlike the current President of the USA. What we basically have here is a Democrat VS Democrat crime. Both parties involved are minorities. One is Hispanic-American and the other was African-American. We also have a whole bunch of Democrat racists and race baiters who are out to make this into a race issue.

I believe that Mr. "NO LIMIT N*GGA" (Twitter handle) was a typical, low life thug. The evidence and facts that are available so far, support this. There was some altercation and somebody got shot, big deal. There is no convincing evidence that this is primarily race related, and I believe that the media is making a big deal out of nothing.

Obama said that if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. Well, I suggest that Obama hold another press conference and comment on this video. Because if Obama had many sons and daughters, they'd look like this.

Police: Trayvon protesters ransack store
North Miami Beach Walgreens incident caught on video

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-T...z/-/index.html

Hopefully, one of the more disgusting, racially obsessed Presidents that the USA has ever had will be removed from office in the coming election.
Reply
Reply
post #56 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:14pm
I'm only concerned with Due Process.

Race and how Martin carried himself on twitter or where ever else is not of importance to me. What "is" important is what provoked the incident that led to gun fire and have we followed the precepts in place to ensure that Due Process of the law has been fulfilled.

I want to know what crime was being committed by Martin and what justification exists for Zimmerman coming in heavy.

Often police officers are allowed to use Deadly Force which is understandable in a position that will frequently put them in harms way. Regular citizens largely are exempt from Deadly Force unless there are other mitigating circumstances (i.e someone broke into your home or you've been attacked with a deadly weapon)

Zimmerman did apply long standing Equal Force doctrines. The assumption that someone may have a gun does not grant citizen use of Deadly Force.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #57 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I'm only concerned with Due Process.

Race and how Martin carried himself on twitter or where ever else is not of importance to me. What "is" important is what provoked the incident that led to gun fire and have we followed the precepts in place to ensure that Due Process of the law has been fulfilled.

I want to know what crime was being committed by Martin and what justification exists for Zimmerman coming in heavy.

That depends who you listen to. If Zimmerman's account is accurate, Martin was acting suspiciously (walking slow in the rain, acting intoxicated in some way, unfamiliar person in a neighborhood that had been suffering break-ins, etc). Secondly, if his story is true, Martin committed assault. We just don't know what's true.

Quote:

Often police officers are allowed to use Deadly Force which is understandable in a position that will frequently put them in harms way. Regular citizens largely are exempt from Deadly Force unless there are other mitigating circumstances (i.e someone broke into your home or you've been attacked with a deadly weapon)

Zimmerman did apply long standing Equal Force doctrines. The assumption that someone may have a gun does not grant citizen use of Deadly Force.

Incorrect. If Zimmerman was attacked and fired in self-defense, he's not criminally liable (all things being equal...such as the firearm being legally owned, etc).
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #58 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:35pm
I'm no lawyer but if Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman, one factor that could go against Zimmerman on the self-defense claim would be if he did anything (and what that was) to provoke an attack from Martin.

The provocation wouldn't justify Martin attacking Zimmerman. Martin is was presumably capable of self-control in the face of provocation.

However, it might throw some cold water on the pure self-defense claim. It might land things somewhere between 1st degree murder and pure self-defense. Possibly manslaughter due to aggravating circumstances.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #59 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 
Obama 2012 announces campaign hoodies on sale.

You can't make this shit up.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #60 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:48pm
Zimmerman's problem is the 911 call. I'm not referencing the potential derogatory comments but rather the operator getting the confession from Zimmerman that he was in fact following Martin. When told that he didn't need to do that he replied "ok" affirming that he understood the suggestion.

The operator did not have authority over Zimmerman but it puts Zimmerman in an awkward position as he's got to explain how he's following someone and then suddenly gets attacked.

Buttress that up with Martin's girlfriend who stated that she heard conversation between Zimmerman and Martin that sounded like anything but Martin blindly attacking Zimmerman.

The self defense story is really really weak. It's likely going to fall apart in court under testimony and what we're going to be left with is Zimmerman using too much force without proper authority and grounds.

Zimmerman should enjoy whatever freedom he has left.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #61 of 169
3/27/12 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Zimmerman's problem is the 911 call. I'm not referencing the potential derogatory comments but rather the operator getting the confession from Zimmerman that he was in fact following Martin. When told that he didn't need to do that he replied "ok" affirming that he understood the suggestion.

The operator did not have authority over Zimmerman but it puts Zimmerman in an awkward position as he's got to explain how he's following someone and then suddenly gets attacked.

Buttress that up with Martin's girlfriend who stated that she heard conversation between Zimmerman and Martin that sounded like anything but Martin blindly attacking Zimmerman.

You put an even finer point on this. There's a point that could cloud things even further. What if Zimmerman was following Martin in some way that Martin felt threatened or in danger and attacked Zimmerman in what he thought was his own self-defense? Zimmerman then uses this attack as the pre-text to shoot Martin in his "self-defense."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #62 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Zimmerman's problem is the 911 call. I'm not referencing the potential derogatory comments but rather the operator getting the confession from Zimmerman that he was in fact following Martin. When told that he didn't need to do that he replied "ok" affirming that he understood the suggestion.

The operator did not have authority over Zimmerman but it puts Zimmerman in an awkward position as he's got to explain how he's following someone and then suddenly gets attacked.

Apparently the police found his explanation credible.

Quote:

Buttress that up with Martin's girlfriend who stated that she heard conversation between Zimmerman and Martin that sounded like anything but Martin blindly attacking Zimmerman.

Yes, but there is at least one other witness...an eyewitness who corroborates Zimmerman's story. He also had physical evidence of having been attack.

Quote:

The self defense story is really really weak.

If it was, he would have been charged already. I'm not saying it's going to hold, but it's not "weak."

Quote:
It's likely going to fall apart in court under testimony and what we're going to be left with is Zimmerman using too much force without proper authority and grounds.

You made that up. You're doing exactly what the media is doing. You don't have the facts...you're just speculating and relaying your personal feelings.

Quote:

Zimmerman should enjoy whatever freedom he has left.

See above. We don't know. At this point I don't know what the hell to think. He could have used too much force. He could have followed him and shot without cause out of fear, adrenaline, etc. He could profiled him. He could have believed Martin was a threat when he actually wasn't. His story could be completely true. We just have to see what happens as the facts come out.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #63 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:00pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
You say you don't know, but you sound awfully biased toward Zimmerman. Shocking.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #64 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Apparently the police found his explanation credible.

Well...it wouldn't be the first time in history the police screwed up and/or tried CYA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If it was, he would have been charged already.

That's not necessarily so.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #65 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You say you don't know, but you sound awfully biased toward Zimmerman. Shocking.

What is my basis for being biased? Go ahead, BR. I'm waiting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well...it wouldn't be the first time in history the police screwed up and/or tried CYA.

Good point.

Quote:

That's not necessarily so.

It's likely though.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #66 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:16pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
You appear to be taking Zimmerman for his word while ignoring the evidence against him.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #67 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:16pm
SDW2001

Police don't try cases. They enforce the law...Judges and Attorney's uphold the law. It doesn't matter what the police deem as credible or not once it hits the court room .

I haven't read any reports of eye witness so it'll be interesting to get this testimony.

Oh it's weak...very weak. Zimmerman is not talking and the Sanford PD is already reeling from past transgression (Justin Collison - son of Police Lieutenant turns himself in)

It doesn't matter though. Sanford PD has lost the case to the Feds anyways.

I'm speculating but doing so in a logical manner. The question is how does Zimmerman go from telling a 911 operator that Martin is running only to be attacked just minutes later?

Did Martin flee and then suddenly do a 180 and come back to attack an unsuspecting Zimmerman?

Why does Martin's gf speak about a confrontation with Martin and Zimmerman on that led to physical contact?

Zimmerman's story doesn't jive with what's floating around and the only guy that does know what happened is 6ft deep.

Zimmerman's story better put it all together or he's toast.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #68 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's likely though.

I don't see how. That's conjecture on your part.

Here's more:


Quote:
On February 26th, the night Martin was killed, police questioned Zimmerman for five hours at police headquarters. The police report noted Zimmerman was "bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."

Police did not administer a drug and alcohol test or an immediate background check on Zimmerman, although they did both on Martin.

The next day, detectives re-enacted the shooting with Zimmerman at the scene. They also discovered Zimmerman had two prior arrests: one for assaulting a cop, the other for domestic abuse.

For the next two weeks, lead investigator Chris Serino pursued a manslaughter charge against Zimmerman.

Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it.

Public pressure grew. On March 12, police gave the case to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. He told them they needed more evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #69 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't see how. That's conjecture on your part.

Here's more:

Fair enough
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #70 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

SDW2001

Police don't try cases. They enforce the law...Judges and Attorney's uphold the law. It doesn't matter what the police deem as credible or not once it hits the court room .

The police gather evidence that may lead to charges, though.

Quote:

I haven't read any reports of eye witness so it'll be interesting to get this testimony.

Oh it's weak...very weak. Zimmerman is not talking and the Sanford PD is already reeling from past transgression (Justin Collison - son of Police Lieutenant turns himself in)

I'm not sure what that has to do with it. That indicts the whole department?

Quote:


It doesn't matter though. Sanford PD has lost the case to the Feds anyways.

I'm speculating but doing so in a logical manner. The question is how does Zimmerman go from telling a 911 operator that Martin is running only to be attacked just minutes later?

I agree that is an unanswered question.

Quote:

Did Martin flee and then suddenly do a 180 and come back to attack an unsuspecting Zimmerman?

Good question. Possibly, possibly not. We don't know.

Quote:

Why does Martin's gf speak about a confrontation with Martin and Zimmerman on that led to physical contact?

She's not an eyewitness. At least that's my understanding.

Quote:

Zimmerman's story doesn't jive with what's floating around and the only guy that does know what happened is 6ft deep.

Zimmerman's story better put it all together or he's toast.

I've seen very little evidence that contradicts his story, and very little evidence that the media narrative of him being racist zealot who hunted down a poor kid is accurate. But that again goes back to us not knowing.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #71 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:28pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
You just described Fox News's narrative of the media's narrative--not the media's narrative. You are in the bubble.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #72 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

She's not an eyewitness. At least that's my understanding.

She's still a witness. An "ear" witness if you will. Granted her testimony would likely carry less weight than someone who saw something. Though even eyewitnesses are notoriously bad. All of the witnesses will be taken together to try and re-construct the whole picture.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #73 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

She's still a witness. An "ear" witness if you will. Granted her testimony would likely carry less weight than someone who saw something. Though even eyewitnesses are notoriously bad. All of the witnesses will be taken together to try and re-construct the whole picture.

Agreed.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #74 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You just described Fox News's narrative of the media's narrative--not the media's narrative. You are in the bubble.

Right, BR. The media hasn't rushed to judgement at all.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #75 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:38pm
Frankly the more that comes out the more it starts looking like a much more muddled situation that probably has Zimmerman pursing Martin, Martin possibly feeling threatened and reacting and attacking Zimmerman, Zimmerman reacting in "self-defense" and shooting Martin for attacking him.

If all that's true, the reasons for Zimmerman pursuing Martin will be debated for a long time. Legally they're probably not relevant though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #76 of 169
3/27/12 at 5:44pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
It's telling that SDW isn't arguing for Trayvon's right to stand his ground against this crazy guy following him to his father's house.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #77 of 169
3/27/12 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You appear to be taking Zimmerman for his word while ignoring the evidence against him.

It's that crazy presumption of innocence thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You say you don't know, but you sound awfully biased toward Zimmerman. Shocking.

Presuming someone is innocence absent a charge or even both sides of the story isn't a bias. It's commonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's telling that SDW isn't arguing for Trayvon's right to stand his ground against this crazy guy following him to his father's house.

Both sides (Trayvon parents/Zimmerman lawyer) have told stories involving each party being the aggressor. When Trayvon is the aggressor it is excused and Zimmerman should be charged. When Zimmerman is the aggressor, he is excoriated and should be charged. It's sort of sad how you don't see your hypocrisy there.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #78 of 169
3/27/12 at 10:15pm
TheBlaze.com

Quote:
He then went on to accuse Cooper of having a lack of concern for Martin’s family, which prompted a quick retort from Cooper: “Well sir, actually, you have no idea what’s in my mind, or my heart, or what I’ve been reporting on….. What I‘m wandering is aren’t you just taking advantage of a situation to try and get in front of cameras and get your name out, for your group, which is tiny?”

Hmmm....that sounds a bit familiar.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #79 of 169
3/27/12 at 10:50pm
It's good to see that this thread has moved to discuss the actual event and away from the new distraction that Faux and friends are trying to fire up. If that had come in to the discussion as opposed to being the topic from the outset, it would be a different matter.

First up, I will admit I am not following and cannot follow this case that closely and certainly don't have it on the news 24 hours a day here in Japan as you probably do back in the US. There are plenty of topics in the news here to focus my attention on.

Is anybody familiar with the Florida laws covering neighborhood watch programs? What are the limitations placed on them? What authorities do they have? What are their operating procedures? How closely do the work with the police? What equipment do they have? Do they patrol as individuals or in pairs or teams? Do they record their activities, audio only or also video?

If this was a gated community, were there any surveillance cameras? Did any of the houses nearby have any cameras?

I tend to agree that the 911 call telling the guard not to engage does seem pretty harmful to the case at this point if the guard then continued to approach. I also think that the question of only if the boy pulled a 180 there might not have been a confrontation is a good one.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this as I am beginning to get questions about it from friends here in Japan who remember the case of a Japanese exchange student who was shot and killed in a backyard in I believe Louisiana about 15 years ago. He was going to a Halloween party and went to the wrong house wearing his mask. He simply entered the back yard and was shot; the shooter went free. The case shocked the Japanese as guns are strictly restricted here (only hunters can legally have guns). There are murders, however, usually involving knives.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #80 of 169
3/28/12 at 6:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's telling that SDW isn't arguing for Trayvon's right to stand his ground against this crazy guy following him to his father's house.

Explain how it's telling. Go ahead, BR. Call me a racist. I know you want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

It's good to see that this thread has moved to discuss the actual event and away from the new distraction that Faux and friends are trying to fire up. If that had come in to the discussion as opposed to being the topic from the outset, it would be a different matter.

First up, I will admit I am not following and cannot follow this case that closely and certainly don't have it on the news 24 hours a day here in Japan as you probably do back in the US. There are plenty of topics in the news here to focus my attention on.

Is anybody familiar with the Florida laws covering neighborhood watch programs? What are the limitations placed on them? What authorities do they have? What are their operating procedures? How closely do the work with the police? What equipment do they have? Do they patrol as individuals or in pairs or teams? Do they record their activities, audio only or also video?

I don't think they have any special authority to use force. Zimmerman's claim is self-defense as a citizen, not as a neighborhood watch volunteer.

Quote:

If this was a gated community, were there any surveillance cameras? Did any of the houses nearby have any cameras?

If there were, we don't have the tapes. My father lives in a large gated community in Florida, and there are none of which I'm aware.

Quote:

I tend to agree that the 911 call telling the guard not to engage does seem pretty harmful to the case at this point if the guard then continued to approach. I also think that the question of only if the boy pulled a 180 there might not have been a confrontation is a good one.

I don't know if his pursuit itself is relevant or not.

Quote:

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this as I am beginning to get questions about it from friends here in Japan who remember the case of a Japanese exchange student who was shot and killed in a backyard in I believe Louisiana about 15 years ago. He was going to a Halloween party and went to the wrong house wearing his mask. He simply entered the back yard and was shot; the shooter went free. The case shocked the Japanese as guns are strictly restricted here (only hunters can legally have guns). There are murders, however, usually involving knives.

That's a very different situation. At worst, I think Zimmerman profiled Martin and was overzealous in shooting him. Proving a hate crime or anything premeditated is going to be very tough. In fact, unless his story of being attacked can be disproved (which, from my understanding, is what has to happen), him getting charged with any major crime is going to be tough. A civil lawsuit would be another story.
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama is stoking racial tensions to get reelected