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Australian government accuses Apple of 'misleading' 4G claims with new iPad - Page 4

post #121 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

The appropriate amount used as necessary.

Regarding the labelling of the cellular-enabled iPad in the United Kingdom, it should be labeled '3G' because the 3rd generation of mobile telecommunications is the highest generation of standard mobile telecommunication services the iPad supports in the United Kingdom.

Furthermore, the cellular-enabled iPad supports frequencies within the spectrum band of 700 MHz to 2,100 MHz. However, the scheduled 4G LTE network in the United Kingdom will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports 4G LTE on the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands.

They aren't advertising 4G LTE in the UK (or other countries), why don't you look up the 4G standard in particular, the definition pertaining to HSPA+ which IS available in the UK and Australia.

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post #122 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:24pm
what does Apple have to do to make this ipad compatible with these other bands? Different chipset? Software upgrade? New SIM chip? Combination? Is it a contract? Approval? What is limiting them from being able to support these other bands?
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post #123 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Show me where Telstra have said that?? It's quite clear on there website to me.

http://www.telstra.com.au/bigpond-in...dband/bigpond/

The banner advertising in local stores, outside 4G LTE coverage area's i.e. most of Australia, unless they are adopting the ITU 4G definition as also used by Apple.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #124 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

what does Apple have to do to make this ipad compatible with these other bands? Different chipset? Software upgrade? New SIM chip? Combination? Is it a contract? Approval? What is limiting them from being able to support these other bands?

Chipset.
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post #125 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

They aren't advertising 4G LTE in the UK (or other countries), why don't you look up the 4G standard in particular, the definition pertaining to HSPA+ which IS available in the UK and Australia.

Is HSPA+ being advertised as 4G in Australia? I noticed Telstra called their LTE service there 4G, but I don't think the iPad 4G can make use of it.

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post #126 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

Furthermore, the cellular-enabled iPad supports frequencies within the spectrum band of 700 MHz to 2,100 MHz. However, the scheduled 4G LTE network in the United Kingdom will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports 4G LTE on the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands.

You realize, of course, that by the 2009 ITU recommendation that has yet to be completed, the 4G LTE deployment in the UK that you reference is not considered to be 4G ...
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post #127 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

So I have to travel to another country to use the feature of the product?? Dumb argument...

Why didn't it say in the ad that I have to put petrol in the car to make it move?

Who can I sue?

Americanisation is almost complete, we will soon be the 51st state.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #128 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The banner advertising in local stores, outside 4G LTE coverage area's i.e. most of Australia, unless they are adopting the ITU 4G definition as also used by Apple.

Ahh ok so were being misleading...so they dont have any TV ads, radio ads or website ads saying it's nationally wide.

Your complaint, if true, is that they have a 4G banner in a store where the coverage doesn't exist.
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post #129 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Is HSPA+ being advertised as 4G in Australia? I noticed Telstra called their LTE service there 4G, but I don't think the iPad 4G can make use of it.

No it is not. 4G has only ever been LTE here.
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post #130 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Why didn't it say in the ad that I have to put petrol in the car to make it move?

Who can I sue?

Americanisation is almost complete, we will soon be the 51st state.

lol this argument is dumber than your last! Care to try for a third?
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post #131 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Is HSPA+ being advertised as 4G in Australia? I noticed Telstra called their LTE service there 4G, but I don't think the iPad 4G can make use of it.

Ummmm, yes. By Apple. And it appears that the standards body agrees with this.
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post #132 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

They aren't advertising 4G LTE in the UK (or other countries), why don't you look up the 4G standard in particular, the definition pertaining to HSPA+ which IS available in the UK and Australia.

The HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA technical standards are not known as 4G in the United Kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Three
It was for that reason that last year we invested millions in upgrading our network to the next generation of 3G technology: HSPA+. We're now in the process of finalising our plans to roll out what's being described in the USA* as 4G. But lets be absolutely clearthis isn't 4G as in Long Term Evolution, or LTE as it's also known. Instead it's the leading-edge version of HSPA+ 3G technology called DC-HSDPA.

*The 42 Mbps Technical Standard has been described as 4G by T-Mobile in the USA.
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post #133 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Ahh ok so were being misleading...so they dont have any TV ads, radio ads or website ads saying it's nationally wide.

Your complaint, if true, is that they have a 4G banner in a store where the coverage doesn't exist.

...it's rather like having a 4G banner on a web based store where the coverage doesn't exist, like Apple's site for instance.

Where is Apple's specific claim that it is available worldwide?

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #134 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

The HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA technical standards are not known as 4G in the United Kingdom.

Is that a colloquial definition of has parliment deemed they will not acknowledge the ITU-R's new definition of 4G?

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post #135 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

...it's rather like having a 4G banner on a web based store where the coverage doesn't exist, like Apple's site for instance.

Where is Apple's specific claim that it is available worldwide?

Link?

Looks quite clear to me and they havent hidden it in a footnote.

http://www.telstra.com.au/bigpond-in...dband/bigpond/
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post #136 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

lol this argument is dumber than your last! Care to try for a third?

Maybe just a big sticker on cars advising that fuel may be required to make them work as advertised and that said car may not work as advertised in some areas e.g. the bottom of a river.

While we are on the subject of calling for prominent disclaimers for everything, I just thought I'd bring it up.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #137 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:50pm
The Danish also have a problem with Apple advertising the iPad w/4G, saying it's not compatible with their 4G networks but isn't clearly stated incompatible, thus misleading some buyers.denmark 4g LTE coverage map
They said they'll take it up with Apple Ireland tho.

http://www.mobilsiden.dk/nyheder/for...pad,lid.20298/

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #138 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Link?

Looks quite clear to me and they havent hidden it in a footnote.

http://www.telstra.com.au/bigpond-in...dband/bigpond/

What is not clear, to me, is that this won't work as advertised, at my house, the local shops or anywhere in between.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #139 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Maybe just a big sticker on cars advising that fuel may be required to make them work as advertised and that said car may not work as advertised in some areas e.g. the bottom of a river.

While we are on the subject of calling for prominent disclaimers for everything, I just thought I'd bring it up.

lol want go for a fourth? I think you should stop now...
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post #140 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Is that a colloquial definition of has parliment deemed they will not acknowledge the ITU-R's new definition of 4G?

Ofcom, the communications regulator for the United Kingdom, uses the term 4G to refer only to Long Term Evolution (LTE) and WiMAX.
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post #141 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What is not clear, to me, is that this won't work as advertised, at my house, the local shops or anywhere in between.

So the fact that they told you clearly in capital cities etc and even a link to a coverage map is not enough for you? This was not information hidden down the bottom of the page!
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post #142 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Link?

Looks quite clear to me and they havent hidden it in a footnote.

http://www.telstra.com.au/bigpond-in...dband/bigpond/

So they are considering LTE as 4G. This mean they are using UTI definition of 4G, which also considers HSPA+ as 4G. The inclusion of LTE and HSPA+ as 4G was announced in the same press release. You can't pick and choose what you like and ignore the rest.
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post #143 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What is not clear, to me, is that this won't work as advertised, at my house, the local shops or anywhere in between.

Oh puhleeese. My iPad doesn't work on LTE in my Jersey home but does fine in Manhattan. I knew that when I bought it, I knew that LTE was only available in certain areas, especially with my carrier. The advertisement never implied that LTE was available everywhere.
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post #144 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

So they are considering LTE as 4G. This mean they are using UTI definition of 4G, which also considers HSPA+ as 4G. The inclusion of LTE and HSPA+ as 4G was announced in the same press release. You can't pick and choose what you like and ignore the rest.

You may be right but I guess the courts will decide in the end.
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post #145 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

Ofcom, the communications regulator for the United Kingdom, uses the term 4G to refer only to Long Term Evolution (LTE) and WiMAX.

I assume that's much like the US's FCC which certainly gives them right to determine cardinal number followed by the letter 'G" can refer to what technologies.

I do find it odd that they have seemingly said that the ITU-R's new definition for '4G' that now includes WiMAX, HSPA+, and LTE are perfectly fine... except for HSPA+. I'm sure they have a reason, but do you know their reason for going in 2/3rd of the way?

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post #146 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I assume that's much like the US's FCC which certainly gives them right to determine cardinal number followed by the letter 'G" can refer to what technologies.

I do find it odd that they have seemingly said that the ITU-R's new definition for '4G' that now includes WiMAX, HSPA+, and LTE are perfectly fine... except for HSPA+. I'm sure they have a reason, but do you know their reason for going in 2/3rd of the way?

And whether or not institutions in various countries choose not to use the ITU definition (that includes HSPA+), I would have thought it improbable that a court would find against Apple for accurately using the ITU definition in their product description. Except in China, of course.
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post #147 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

So the fact that they told you clearly in capital cities etc and even a link to a coverage map is not enough for you? This was not information hidden down the bottom of the page!

Information that is available to iPad purchasers who are clearly advised to consult with carriers re:- availability of networks.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #148 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

And whether or not institutions in various countries choose not to use the ITU definition (that includes HSPA+), I would have thought it improbable that a court would find against Apple for accurately using the ITU definition in their product description. Except in China, of course.

I'll say it again, the whole debate is so irrationally weird.

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post #149 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granmastak View Post

Oh puhleeese. My iPad doesn't work on LTE in my Jersey home but does fine in Manhattan. I knew that when I bought it, I knew that LTE was only available in certain areas, especially with my carrier. The advertisement never implied that LTE was available everywhere.

I guess just like one I purchase here in Australia, where Apple is being investigated for false advertising, as per this article.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #150 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Information that is available to iPad purchasers who are clearly advised to consult with carriers re:- availability of networks.

The ACCC doesn't think so but I guess we will see what the courts think.

It should also be noted that the ACCC only litigates as a last resort when they cannot reach an agreement with the offending organisation.
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post #151 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I assume that's much like the US's FCC which certainly gives them right to determine cardinal number followed by the letter 'G" can refer to what technologies.

I do find it odd that they have seemingly said that the ITU-R's new definition for '4G' that now includes WiMAX, HSPA+, and LTE are perfectly fine... except for HSPA+. I'm sure they have a reason, but do you know their reason for going in 2/3rd of the way?

Ofcom operates under the Communications Act 2003 that allows it to regulate television broadcasting, radio broadcasting, telecommunications, postal services and ultimately all radio frequencies over which wireless devices operate in the United Kingdom.

From the information I gathered from the Ofcom website, I believe Ofcom defines 2G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 115 kbit/s via GPRS (sometimes referred to as 2.5G), 3G networks as offering theoretical speeds from 512 kbit/s to 7.2 Mbit/s via HSPA (sometimes referred to as 3.5G), 3.75G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 42 Mbit/s via HSPA+ and 4G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 100 Mbit/s via LTE.
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post #152 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

I am unable to find an absolute definition on the Ofcom website, however from the information I found I believe Ofcom may define 2G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 115 kbit/s via GPRS (sometimes referred to as 2.5G), 3G networks as offering theoretical speeds from 512 kbit/s to 7.2 Mbit/s via HSPA (sometimes referred to as 3.5G), 3.75G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 42 Mbit/s via HSPA+ and 4G networks as offering theoretical speeds of up to 100 Mbit/s via LTE.

UMTS is as low as 384 kb/s but CDMA2000 is even lower but you luckily never had to deal with that.

But lets take the 512 kb/s speed as the minimum and pair that with the 42 mb/s speed of HSPA+ even though it can go as high, currently, to 168 kb/s.

If we call 512 kb/s a unit of 1 then increment by 1 for each 512 kb/s that gives 42 Mb/s a value of 84. That's a huge jump to call such an expansive change all the same generation when marketing it to a customer. From a highly technical, backend perspective there is a need to know whether the air interface and access method are of the same generation and type, but the customer doesn't know about this stuff (no should they) so why are we so hell bent in marketing this obscure nomenclature to the customer.

And what happens to LTE when it gets over 100 mb/s? Do they call it 5G? What will they call LTE Advance? 6G?



edit: Here's something I wrote awhile back on the subject:

Using 3GPP and 3GPP2 standards the slowest theoretical maximum speed of a '3G' is CDMA2000 1X with a whopping speed of 153 Kbit/s.

If we compare that to the old ITU definition of '3G' you find that HSPA+ has a current theoretical maximum speed of 168 Mbit/s (172,032 Kbit/s) and LTE has 299.6 Mbit/s (306,790 Kbit/s).

That's a performance increase of 112,439% for HSPA+ and 200,516% for LTE that we are told all belong in the same generational category as a marketing term presented to the average consumer. Does that really make sense?

Customers don't care about what underlying air interfaces and channel access methods these technologies use; they only care about what offers more or less performance. The variance to far too large to be useful. While things might get better as we move into more LTE connected devices and the disparity in performance differences between LTE networks and devices grow we're still going to be faced with the same issue of the device either saying LTE or 4G. Now


One solution for marketing that the average customer could understand would be to start with a base-level theoretical maximum speed that uses the small common factor between the tower and handset. For example, let's refer to 10 Mbit/s as 1x. For 14.4 Mbps HSPA+ the handset would show 1.4x, for 21.1Mbps HSPA+ it would round to 2x, for 42Mbps DC-HSDPA it would show 4x, and for 73Mbps LTE it would show 7x.

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post #153 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'll say it again, the whole debate is so irrationally weird.

I think it is important that promotional literature does not mislead by making false claims, but asserting that Apple's claims are false based on various random local definitions of 4G that are inconsistent with the applicable standards body definition seems unreasonable.

I can imagine that some buyers may have been really excited about super fast connection speeds, and were disappointed, whether because of 4G incompatibility or just lack of signal at their location. Apple products typically do engender very high expectations in customers. But, if you buy a product without checking the basic specifications to ensure that it meets your needs and expectations then you will sometimes be disappointed, as the product review sections on Amazon provide countless examples of. Apple does provide all the necessary information to make an informed choice.
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post #154 of 198
3/27/12 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Apple does provide all the necessary information to make an informed choice.

In the fine print and that's the issue at hand.
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post #155 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurba View Post

The biggest single budget item of the current Australian federal government is a fibre broadband network, and the opposition claimed outside of metropolitan areas it'd be cheaper to use 4G wireless due to Australia's sparse population. The governments largely unchallenged retort is that 4G is unproven and doesn't exist anywhere in the world yet. To help ensure that they've ensured that the systems deployed in Australia are incompatible with the ones already in widespread use elsewhere.

So some other hardware manufacturer has kowtowed to the Australian Governments insistence that everything in OZ has to be incompatible, and they (probably rightly) feel miffed that Apple are able to say they have a 4G device without all that expense. (Yes yes I know OZ probably are not the only ones planning on using the 1800MHz band.)

I think it'd be good for consumers to start to realise the expense (lack of productivity) that their government is constantly hoisting upon them whilst also claiming that employees/public servants/companies need to become more productive.

Bottom line though - anyone who is not happy with their 'new ipad' are welcome to a refund last time I checked, so I can't see what further financial penalties the ACCC are hoping for.

Alternatively Apple can find/fund a small startup telco (eg: as vivid have done with WiMAX) to set up a single base station someplace on a compatible frequency in each major city.

No this is all about getting that 4G removed from the advertising, so the good Australian people don't realise that 4G networks elsewhere in the world are well developed and standardised already. And so some other manufacturer can reap the rewards of kowtowing.

Wow. Conspiracy theory much?
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post #156 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

In the fine print and that's the issue at hand.

I understand that, but there is a difference between making a false claim and then refuting it in fine print, which is the accusation here, as opposed to making an accurate claim and elaborating on it in fine print.
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post #157 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I think it is important that promotional literature does not mislead by making false claims, but asserting that Apple's claims are false based on various random local definitions of 4G that are inconsistent with the applicable standards body definition seems unreasonable.

Most global corporations that sell consumer products choose to rename their products in countries where the brand or product name causes confusion. If the 4G name is causing confusion, you don't try to argue with the population and tell them that they are speaking wrongly, you change the name in order to accommodate local linguistic customs.

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post #158 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Is HSPA+ being advertised as 4G in Australia? I noticed Telstra called their LTE service there 4G, but I don't think the iPad 4G can make use of it.

No one here calls HSPA+ 4G. Despite what anyone else here says, we simply don't. The only thing we call 4G right now is Telstra's new LTE network which is limited in scope and incompatible with the other thing we call "4G": iPad.
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post #159 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

What are you basing your 4G definition on? Who is your source for 4G definition? Link please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

<sigh>

OK, once more from the top...

The ITU, the international body responsible for defining telecommunications standards, has redefined 4G to include HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA, in addition to LTE (and Wi-Max). If that offends your delicate sensibilities, perhaps you could more effectively take the matter up with them?

In the mean time, as long as Apple isn't advertising LTE functionality in the UK -- LTE service which, I might add, doesn't even exist outside Bristol and possibly Cornwall -- why shouldn't they sell this as a 4G-compatible device, which it is? Or don't Three, Orange, Everything Everywhere, etc. support DC-HSDPA and HSPA+?

HSPA+ is widely regarded in the UK as a faster version of 3G rather than true 4G. In fact the UK government has not even auctioned the spectrum for 4G yet so whatever the ITU say in the UK you cannot call it 4G. Apple should simply describe it as HSPA+ rather 4G which would avoid any confusion.

Even when 4G does arrive in the UK the iPad will not support it as has been stated earlier the iPad does not support the spectrum that the UK 4G networks will support.

Whichever way you look at it calling it 4G compatible is totally misleading.
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post #160 of 198
3/27/12 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

So they are considering LTE as 4G. This mean they are using UTI definition of 4G, which also considers HSPA+ as 4G. The inclusion of LTE and HSPA+ as 4G was announced in the same press release. You can't pick and choose what you like and ignore the rest.

No, it means they are considering LTE as 4G.

You conclusion that Telstra is using the UTI definition does not follow

Telstra brand HSPA+ under their NextG offering. NextG was originally their branding for straight 3G services.

No Telco here calls HSPA+ 4G. Just face it. It's true.
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