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Australian government accuses Apple of 'misleading' 4G claims with new iPad - Page 2

post #41 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

A plain and simple "4G services are not available for Apple's iPad 4G in Australia" right above the selection box for iPad wi-fi with 4G would be more appropriate wouldn't it, assuming Apple didn't actually intend for there to be some confusion? I'm interested in your answer.

So this latest Apple is evil melodrama is quibbling over the fact that they didn't say, "4G not available in Australia" vice "4G is only available in the US and Canada" - wow.
post #42 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post

Well it specifically states on the page I perviously quoted that 4G is only available in the US and Canada. So I guess the issue comes down to word-smithing and it should say 4G is not available in Australia. Even so, if you bought the iPad in Australia (did you?), you can return it within 14 day if you're not satisfied with the speed, advertising, or any other issue you have with it.

So we agree that Apple should just come out and plainly say in bold type "4G services not available for Australia" rather than the unclear and confusing statements they make in the features description.

And yes, of course a purchaser can return one if dissatisfied. I think Apple is using the potential 4G feature as a selling point to get them into a buyer's hands. They're hoping (probably correctly) that most who might be disappointed to find no 4G won't also make it enough of an issue to return it, even tho some percentage might not have ordered it in the first place if known that 4G isn't a feature for them.
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post #43 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

Because 4G is coming on line and being developed now. Normally people complain when 'x' technology isn't included, even though it's not been globally adopted as a standard. This time Apple are ahead of the game. No complaint to be had here. It's not even hidden in the small print- it states clearly that you can connect to 4G where 4G is available. Apple makes no claim about the availability of 4G locally.

If the iPad had a particular function that would only work in the UK and no where else in the world, is it right that Apple should advertise it around the world with a little small print saying that it will only work in the UK?

I think it's a little North American bias, to say stop complaining when Apple introduces and advertises functions that are "ahead of the game" when they're not accessible anywhere but USA and Canada. If it was the other way around, you would be annoyed that they're advertising something you have no access to
post #44 of 198
All 3 major carriers in Australia will run 4G over 1800 mhz which is not supported on iPad 3rd Gen.

I also think this is poor form by apple. Telstra is spending a lot of money advertising their 4G network. Many will think that an iPad wifi + 4G will work on the 4G network and will be disappointed to find out it won't.

(Optus also is rolling out services at 900mhz and 2300mhz - not sure if they will both carry 4G)
post #45 of 198
My iPhone 4S says 4G in the status bar when it's clearly not a 4G device. Is that misleading? Should the US govt be on Apple's case for it?
post #46 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

The same should happen all over the world. Where I live in the UK the iPad is of course sold as 4G, but there are no 4G networks here, and when there are, they won't work with the iPad 4G.

It's a scam, and clearly designed to mislead consumers. Of course you can look at the small print and see it's a scam, but how many will do that? It's akin to advertising a car as being capable of doing 200mph*.

* - when towed by a rocket powered dragster.

Yes you could buy a rocket powered dragster, or in the iPad's case, travel to America to use it, but in reality that's never going to happen.

Funny you mention cars. When I had Jaguar XJS in the UK before I emigrated to the US, it had 160 on the speedometer and in Germany I did get it up to 140 and there was more under the pedal, I just chickened out . However, in the UK at the time I was there the limit was 70 so Jaguar should have advertised it as having a maximum speed of 70? That would be pretty bad

Or perhaps a small label stating in certain countries the product cannot achieve its maximum potential due to limitations imposed by that country, not the device, might be a better solution.

Meanwhile where are those sheilas that are supposed to appear when I drink Fosters?
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post #47 of 198
And as it states right under the ad on the Australian site, which is the same as the US and Canada sites,
Quote:
Really really fast is your only option.
The new iPad supports fast cellular networks the world over.2 So you can browse the web, stream content or download a movie at blazing-fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA — the fastest 3G networks out there. You’ll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+.3

And on the Australian iPad Store, it clearly lets you choose a model and further states:
Quote:
The iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G model can roam worldwide on fast GSM/UMTS networks, including HSPA, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA. When you travel internationally, you can use a micro-SIM card from a local carrier. You can also connect to the 4G LTE networks of AT&T in the U.S. and Bell, Rogers, and Telus in Canada.

This is a world-wide launch. Attempting to satisfy all the idiosyncrasies for every country and having to modify each and every time it changed would be ludicrous. One would think that Aussies never leave their continent.

And this is a country (as all countries) that post laws such as:
Quote:
  • Children may not purchase cigarettes, but they may smoke them.
  • You may never leave your car keys in an unattended vehicle.
  • It is illegal to roam the streets wearing black clothes, felt shoes and black shoe polish on your face as these items are the tools of a cat burgular.
  • It is illegal to walk on the right hand side of a footpath.
  • Under Australian Communications Authority (ACA) regulations, a modem can’t pick up on the first ring.
  • Taxi cabs are required to carry a bale of hay in the trunk.
  • Bars are required to stable, water and feed the horses of their patrons.
  • The legal age for straight sex is 16, unless the person is in the care/custody of the older person, in which case it is 18.
  • Only licensed electricians may change a light bulb.
  • It is illegal to wear hot pink pants after midday Sunday.
  • You must have a neck to knee swimsuit in order to swim at Brighton Beach.
  • Until the Port Arthur Killings it was legal to own an AK-47 but not legal to be gay.
  • Lawmakers are proposing a new law that will not allow anyone to come closer than 100 meters from a dead whale’s carcass.

P.S. No one is immune from such stupidity.

By the way, my car has a top speed of 220 km/hr. Should it have a sticker on it that states, "Not in your driveway".
post #48 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

So we agree that Apple should just come out and plainly say in bold type "4G services not available for Australia" rather than the unclear and confusing statements they make in the features description.

And yes, of course a purchaser can return one if dissatisfied. I think Apple is using the potential 4G feature as a selling point to get them into a buyer's hands. They're hoping (probably correctly) that most who might be disappointed to find no 4G won't also make it enough of an issue to return it, even tho some percentage might not have ordered it in the first place if known that 4G isn't a feature for them.

So now you're reduced to claiming it's not in sufficiently bold type - how about if Apple adds a large red sticker on the box that says, "4G only available in US and Canada"? Make you happy than? Also, can you point out where Australians consumers who purchased the iPad are now complaining that they got hood-winked by the advertising? Did this government agency take action because of consumer complaints?
post #49 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironsword View Post

The question we have to ask is "is it legitimate for Apple to call the new iPad "4G" if the hardware supports the technology even though it can't be used in the market it is being sold in?". What does 4G mean to the average consumer? Being able to reach "4G" speeds or actually being able to connect to a network that is being marketed by a carrier as 4G/LTE?
It's all a bit of a mess really.

4G is not a technology, it's a category of technologies. LTE is one technology in that category but not the only one. HSPA+ is another one and Australia has it.

Yes, 2 years ago HSPA+ was categorised only as 3.5G, but then the ITU changed the classifications and now it is officially 4G.
post #50 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmas View Post

This is only once you open the box. The problem is with the advertising that try to sell a feature that is unusable in the geography. In Australia it is effectively a 3G device. This is part if the problem when a specification I a Lipitor loose on what can be a GSM 4G device.

Look at the photo that was posted with the article "UP TO" 4g speeds. That doesn't equal 4g anymore than "up to 10 hours" equals that you will always get 10 hours. That additional note likely clarifies just as they did in the keynote, that LTE is only in the US. Making the claims of confusion a tad false. Especially since you can always ask in the store and they will tell you that it is 3g only in that area.
post #51 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

I don't think that excuses Apple from advertising a feature that cant be used in the uk.

Nor does it exclude the phone companies from advertising and describing incompatible technologies under the umbrella term "4G", and yet I see predictably few complaints about that in this thread...
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post #52 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis View Post

I have to say, I think this is great. The fact that Apple calls it the "Wi-Fi + 4G" model is misleading, as the iPad is not capable of using 4G here in Japan. It may not matter to those of you in the States, but everywhere else in the world, it matters.

I agree. The iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz frequencies which is used in the United States and Canada for 4G LTE networking. The present and future 4G networks in Europe will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands.

The cellular-enable iPad should be labeled accordingly, i.e. '3G' worldwide and '4G' in the United States and Canada.
post #53 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post

So now you're reduced to claiming it's not in sufficiently bold type - how about if Apple adds a large red sticker on the box that says, "4G only available in US and Canada"? Make you happy than? Also, can you point out where Australians consumers who purchased the iPad are now complaining that they got hood-winked by the advertising? Did this government agency take action because of consumer complaints?

Question for you: Should stating that 4G is available only in North America be more than a footnote? Apparently the Aussie government isn't of the opinion that it's sufficient notice or they wouldn't threaten an injunction
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post #54 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

I agree. The iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz frequencies which is used in the United States and Canada for 4G LTE networking. The present and future 4G networks in Europe will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands.

The cellular-enable iPad should be labeled accordingly, i.e. '3G' worldwide and '4G' in the United States and Canada.

If you buy it somewhere else and travel to the US, it suddenly becomes 4G compatible and you CAN use it on 4G i.e. it is 4G.

btw, what about parts of the world with only 2G available, would they need another disclaimer?
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post #55 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis View Post

I have to say, I think this is great. The fact that Apple calls it the "Wi-Fi + 4G" model is misleading, as the iPad is not capable of using 4G here in Japan. It may not matter to those of you in the States, but everywhere else in the world, it matters.

Please. That's no different than if you sued Apple for selling you an iPad in an American city not covered by 4G LTE service. The iPad contains 4G LTE hardware. So you say it's wrong to call it what it is? Then it must be wrong to advertise the iPad as having tethering capabilities because some networks don't allow tethering.

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post #56 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnryan View Post

That would hold true if Australia didn't have a 4G network. The problem is that Australia has a 4G network that works fine with many 4G phones and computers. The iPad only works on 4G in North America, and not on any of the 4G networks around the world. I believe it is good that Apple is being told that this is not good enough.

Not true. the iPad only works with LTE in NA but there are a number of 3g nets that operate at speeds that can be defined as 4g and the iPad works fine with those in several countries. Just as the iPhone 4 and 4s do. Australia is very possibly one of that several

It's a terminology definition issue same as many folks only consider 1080p to be HD (and some only if the audio and bitrate are blu-ray standard) when use of the term for 720p is totally legit

There's no place on Apple's website where it says that the iPad works with LTE in Australia and several where it says that it doesn't work with that flavor in the US. The TV ads don't claim it works with LTE in said country either. So this is based on it being called the '4g' iPad and that's thin
post #57 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Question for you: Should stating that 4G is available only in North America be more than a footnote? Apparently the Aussie government isn't of the opinion that it's sufficient notice or they wouldn't threaten an injunction

Why not, it's acceptable practice for anything else that's advertised in Australia.

If I buy a 4G handset from Telstra, which is advertised as such in large lettering, should I be able to sue because I know it won't work in my area?
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post #58 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

So they find out no when they go to activate it after paying and receiving their new iPad from Apple? Not Apple's problem according to you?

1. it works on 3g

2. if that it doesn't work on 4g is such a big deal (and they missed all the warnings) then they just return it. Apple will take it back for at least 14 days after purchase in every country.
post #59 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post

So now you're reduced to claiming it's not in sufficiently bold type - how about if Apple adds a large red sticker on the box that says, "4G only available in US and Canada"? Make you happy than? Also, can you point out where Australians consumers who purchased the iPad are now complaining that they got hood-winked by the advertising? Did this government agency take action because of consumer complaints?

Actually, for people like this, Apple can do no right unless it adopts Android and makes bigger phones and smaller tablets and sells at negative profits. Period.

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post #60 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If you buy it somewhere else and travel to the US, it suddenly becomes 4G compatible and you CAN use it on 4G i.e. it is 4G.

btw, what about parts of the world with only 2G available, would they need another disclaimer?

The United Kingdom, European Union and I think that a product should be marketed in accordance with the country in which it is sold.
post #61 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

My iPhone 4S says 4G in the status bar when it's clearly not a 4G device. Is that misleading? Should the US govt be on Apple's case for it?

your iPhone says that because it is a 4g device. It just isn't an LTE device. But it is a legit status based on the actual definition of 4g which is based on speed and not style. Your iPhone was in an area with the required speed to be termed 4g
post #62 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If you buy it somewhere else and travel to the US, it suddenly becomes 4G compatible and you CAN use it on 4G i.e. it is 4G.

btw, what about parts of the world with only 2G available, would they need another disclaimer?

Personally I think simply telling a buyer on their country-specific Apple site what the iPad features are for their own country should be sufficient. Other than in a small-type footnote, Apple avoided doing that in Australia. I've no doubt that the failure to tell consumers is at least a partial reason for the ACCC's action.
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post #63 of 198


The ad looks misleading as hell. 4G around the world? Since when is North America "Around the world"?
post #64 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Personally I think simply telling a buyer on their country-specific Apple site what the iPad features are for their own country should be sufficient. Other than in a small-type footnote, Apple avoided doing that in Australia. I've no doubt that the failure to tell consumers is at least a partial reason for the ACCC's action.

I find it offensive that my tax dollars are being wasted by a nanny state Government department who seem to think that people here are illiterate retards.

C'mon, ACCC, this isn't the USA.
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post #65 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

I agree. The iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz frequencies which is used in the United States and Canada for 4G LTE networking. The present and future 4G networks in Europe will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands.

The cellular-enable iPad should be labeled accordingly, i.e. '3G' worldwide and '4G' in the United States and Canada.

How many labels do you want?

Quote:
Orange promises full European 4G LTE rollout by 2015
Orange has unveiled its plans to launch 4G LTE service throughout the UK and Europe. The carrier says that it will have the next-generation high-speed wireless service fully deployed by 2015.

The carriers says that it will have 4G LTE service in nine countries in Europe, plus the UK. "[Orange will] roll out 4G/LTE networks in all Orange European Union markets by 2015," said the carrier in a meeting with the European Commission this week.

Orange wasn't afraid to ask for the government's help with its rollout either. "We welcome the EU decision to make more spectrum available, in a timely and harmonised manner, to wireless services in the EU, and look forward to further, similar initiatives to help us cope with the massive growth in public data use," added Orange. "Europe could do a great deal to promote a more favourable environment for the rollout of radio access networks."

North America is far ahead of Europe with its 4G LTE deployments, as both AT&T and Verizon Wireless in the U.S. have active networks already. In Canada, multiple carriers have begun deployment of 4G LTE networks as well. European carriers have had to wait for more spectrum to be made available to them before they could start building their own 4G LTE networks. Everything Everywhere in the UK has attempted to work around this limitation by re-purposing spectrum it already has for use with 4G LTE services.

Talk about 'misleading', are the Aussie's suing their own?
Quote:
Telstra recently made its highly anticipated 4G LTE network widely available in capital cities and various regional centres across Australia.
post #66 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Yes it can do 4G in Australia, because Telstra has HSPA+.
4G != LTE.
4G is really just a very poorly defined marketing term.

The pictured ad says LTE. Next?
post #67 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post



The ad looks misleading as hell. 4G around the world? Since when is North America "Around the world"?

You do know what, "…up to" means?

My bad. I thought you would.
post #68 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I find it offensive that my tax dollars are being wasted by a nanny state Government department who seem to think that people here are illiterate retards.

C'mon, ACCC, this isn't the USA.

So then you're saying that a small footnote at the bottom of a page is more than sufficient notice to a buyer that the 4G referenced by Apple isn't 4G for them. Do I have that correct?
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post #69 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


The ad looks misleading as hell. 4G around the world? Since when is North America "Around the world"?

Perhaps you should look into doing an English comprehension course so that you can understand what the wording in that advertisement is actually saying.
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post #70 of 198
I am sure that anyone who thinks they have been tricked into buying a new iPad in Australia, can take it back to an Apple store and get a full refund. It is what it is. My Internet service provider sells me a plan that gets up to 30Mbs down and 5Mbs up speeds. I have never seen anything above 23. If I bother to read the small print and understand the technology, I will become aware that 30Mbs is not guaranteed. Maybe Apple should stop selling products in Australia and then no one would be fooled into buying something they really are not getting. Looks like some of the stupidity of the U.S. government is leaking over to Australia.
post #71 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

The pictured ad says LTE. Next?

That ad is not from Australia, it is from the US site:
http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/

Here is the equivalent Australia page, it just mentions wireless:
http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/features/

And here is an earlier version of the Aus page, which only said 4G, never LTE:
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/articl...ry_australia_/

And the official ACCC complaint (linked in the article) has no mention of LTE, the complaint is about the marketing term "WiFi + 4G."
post #72 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

How many labels do you want?

The appropriate amount used as necessary.

Furthermore, Orange's 4G LTE network will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands. Therefore, the iPad is incompatible with present and future 4G LTE networks in Europe.
post #73 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

That ad is not from Australia, it is from the US site:
http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/

Here is the equivalent Australia page, it just mentions wireless:
http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/features/

And here is an earlier version of the Aus page, which only said 4G, never LTE:
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/articl...ry_australia_/

And the official ACCC complaint (linked in the article) has no mention of LTE, the complaint is about the marketing term "WiFi + 4G."

Apple has since updated the ad to satisfy those that don't fully understand the idiosyncacies of the English language. Which is in most cases, Americans.
post #74 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hill60, why is it a footnote, intended as a technical clarification? Do you really honestly believe that a footnote is proper notice considering the site is only for Australian buyers of iPad's intended for use in Australia?

A plain and simple "4G services are not available for Apple's iPad 4G in Australia" right above the selection box for iPad wi-fi with 4G would be more appropriate wouldn't it, assuming Apple didn't actually intend for there to be some confusion? I'm interested in your answer.

Hatorguy, a footnote is fine because 4G services (HSPA+) are available (as per the ITU definition). As long as they aren't selling it as an LTE device in Australia, what's the problem?

When I bought my new iPad, the AT&T version didn't come with disclaimers saying 4G wasn't supported in my area, even though their nearest LTE city is a few hundred miles away. (And, yes, I got the Verizon version instead. It's called doing your homework.)

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post #75 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Apple has since updated the ad to satisfy those that don't fully understand the idiosyncacies of the English language. Which is in most cases, Americans.

Apple have obviously realised the way they were using the term "4G" in Australia was causing confusion and have started removing it from their site. That is very nice of them, but they shouldn't be sued.

Apple were in fact using the term correctly all along, and it is Australians who use the term in contradiction of international standards. Apple should send the ACCC a link to the ITU website, and then sue them for costs and libel.
post #76 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Apple has since updated the ad to satisfy those that don't fully understand the idiosyncacies of the English language. Which is in most cases, Americans.

Then they are doing the right thing. Misleading advertising is not a sound business strategy in the long run.
post #77 of 198
In Italy, in the first days after the new iPad launch, the ads of the mobile phone operators were misleading since they advertised 4G LTE capabilities of the new iPad, while the LTE frequencies used in the US are different and the new iPad cannot connect to LTE networks in Europe.

After a few days, the ads were changed: all references to LTE have been removed, and now they only mention HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA.
post #78 of 198
This and several similar cases, are an example of Apple being held to a higher standard than other similar companies.

But honestly, I genuinely think it is fair to hold Apple to a higher standard. This is one of those cases where Apple slipped up. Other companies can maybe rely on fine print and disclaimers, but Apple should not resort to such a defense. "Think Different" is applicable here too. This just is not Apple's way of doing things, and someone somewhere slipped up big time.

I think one option for Apple is to offer an additional 14 day window, so that customers who have an issue with the connectivity will have the choice to return the device. And to make it even more clear, Apple can issue a recall for all the Wifi+4G iPads in Australia - stating clearly that the device is not capable of meeting Australian 4G standards. And when customers bring in the device, they can offer to either put a 3G sticker over the 4G label, or return the device for a full refund, or sign a disclaimer that they customers accepts that the device is not capable of 4G and still wants to keep it, and has rejected the recall offer.

The fact is, while this is a major screw up by Apple, most Australians realize that there will not be an iPad anytime soon that will support Australian 4G networks. They would anyway buy the same device irrespective of what it is called. Any additional return window, or a recall, will not really cost Apple anything significant.

But Apple should treat this as a valuable lesson - they have to be prepared to be held to a higher standard in terms of customer satisfaction, marketing, etc. Such a screw up could easily boomerang into a major issue for Apple considering how large its launches are.
post #79 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

The appropriate amount used as necessary.

Furthermore, Orange's 4G LTE network will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands. Therefore, the iPad is incompatible with present and future 4G LTE networks in Europe.

So how many labels do you want?
Quote:
LTE: the future of mobile broadband

Everything Everywhere and BT Wholesale started the first live trial of 4G LTE broadband in the UK last year, with Cornwall being used as the testbed for the next generation network. The trial used 10MHz of test 800MHz spectrum.

Everything Everywhere plans to roll-out 4G mobile internet for Orange and T-Mobile customers by the end of the year, providing it gets the green light from Ofcom.

The company has announced that a new 4G test on the 1800Mhz spectrum will commence in Bristol this April as part of its hopes to launch before the year is out.

In order to create the 4G network, it would be necessary for Ofcom to allow EE to convert some of its existing 1800Mhz spectrum license from 3G to 4G use. The regulator says it is considering the offer.

4G iPad band

The new iPad is designed to work across the spectrum band of 700-2100Mhz. While some trials in the UK have been outside this, the Everything Everwhere Bristol test will be within this.

And now:
Quote:
So I shouldn't be too bummed out that I can't get 4G?
Nope. Apple has opted to use 4G terminology for the new iPad, and that's certainly fair. But for the UK, we're still getting real-world speeds on par with what is termed 4G elsewhere in the world. So don't worry, your new iPad will be fast in the UK, and the networks seem hell bent on making sure of that.
post #80 of 198
I'm still not seeing any change in wording on the Australian Apple store site
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

Not even a footnote that 4G isn't available to Australian's purchasing the iPad 4G.
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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  • Australian government accuses Apple of 'misleading' 4G claims with new iPad
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