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Australian government accuses Apple of 'misleading' 4G claims with new iPad - Page 3

post #81 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Which is in most cases, Americans.

Please don't insult all Americans by throwing them into the same bucket as I am a [whatever]....
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post #82 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I'm still not seeing any change in wording on the Australian Apple store site
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

Not even a footnote that 4G isn't available to Australian's purchasing the iPad 4G.

Did the ITU revoke 4G status for HSPA+ recently? No? Well, there you go.

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post #83 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Did the ITU revoke 4G status for HSPA+ recently? No? Well, there you go.

I thought the discussion was about Australian's expectations, not the definition from the ITU. Is that what Australians expect 4G to be? What's the point of having country specific sales sites if the information on them isn't specific to that country?

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post #84 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:50am
Australian's apparently can't read English, or we have a very poorly defined standard for 4G just in the same way that we didn't have standards for Wi-Fi b,g and n.

Or both.

Put another shrimp on the barby.

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post #85 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlink View Post

Australian's apparently can't read English, or we have a very poorly defined standard for 4G just in the same way that we didn't have standards for Wi-Fi b,g and n.

Or both.

Where on this page does Apple say that 4G isn't available to the Aussie iPad 4G? In fact where does it even say it's only available in North America, even in a tiny footnote somewhere? I don't see it as a reading failure as much as an advertising failure.
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

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post #86 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I'm still not seeing any change in wording on the Australian Apple store site
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

Not even a footnote that 4G isn't available to Australian's purchasing the iPad 4G.

References to LTE on the Au Store have been removed

Quote:
4G coverage is not available in all areas and varies by carrier. See your carrier for details.

Quote:
The iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G model can roam worldwide on fast GSM/UMTS networks, including HSPA, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA. When you travel internationally, you can use a micro-SIM card from a local carrier. You can also connect to the 4G LTE networks of AT&T in the U.S. and Bell, Rogers, and Telus in Canada.

The US iPad store site has been changed as well, but like Canada includes LTE.
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post #87 of 198
3/27/12 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Where on this page does Apple say that 4G isn't available to the Aussie iPad 4G? In fact where does it even say it's only available in North America, even in a tiny footnote somewhere? I don't see it as a reading failure as much as an advertising failure.
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

The ad creates an impression. The impression is false.

A careful reading might reveal the truth. Ads are too often read quickly.
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post #88 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Where on this page does Apple say that 4G isn't available to the Aussie iPad 4G? In fact where does it even say it's only available in North America, even in a tiny footnote somewhere? I don't see it as a reading failure as much as an advertising failure.
http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...ad/select_ipad

Select a product. Even a blind man isn't as will see it.
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post #89 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

So how many labels do you want?

The appropriate amount used as necessary.

Regarding the labelling of the cellular-enabled iPad in the United Kingdom, it should be labeled '3G' because the 3rd generation of mobile telecommunications is the highest generation of standard mobile telecommunication services the iPad supports in the United Kingdom.

Furthermore, the cellular-enabled iPad supports frequencies within the spectrum band of 700 MHz to 2,100 MHz. However, the scheduled 4G LTE network in the United Kingdom will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports 4G LTE on the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands.
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post #90 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hill60, why is it a footnote, intended as a technical clarification? Do you really honestly believe that a footnote is proper notice considering the site is only for Australian buyers of iPad's intended for use in Australia?

A plain and simple "4G services are not available for Apple's iPad 4G in Australia" right above the selection box for iPad wi-fi with 4G would be more appropriate wouldn't it, assuming Apple didn't actually intend for there to be some confusion? I'm interested in your answer.

1) It's the name of the device. Do you think Apple should have a different name for each country just because a user might not have access to certain network or because a country has chosen not to use the ITU'R's definition of '4G' because they deemed it unmarketable?

2) If we start going down that route we have to say that 802.11n is only available for those with routers that are capable of 802.11n. Do you honestly support a lawsuit that says Apple claimed speeds 10x faster than 802.11g but only put in a technical footnote about you needing a router that supports 802.11n. Of course not! So all this irrationality now.

3) Is there really a law that has defined '4G' being LTE Advance in Australia or it just an accepted marketing term?


PS: It's fine that Australia and other countries don't want to follow the ITU-R's definition of '4G". They have that right just as T-Mobile USA had that right back in 2009 which eventually caused the ITU-R to redefine their very, very stupid gap between '3G' and '4G' but the same questions remain: WHy does Apple have to now cater to all these countries that aren't following the ITU-R's definition? Why should Apple have a new name for the device in every country that chooses not to recognize the ITU-R's accepted use of '4G'?

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post #91 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I thought the discussion was about Australian's expectations, not the definition from the ITU. Is that what Australians expect 4G to be? What's the point of having country specific sales sites if the information on them isn't specific to that country?

So you're saying Apple is technically and legally correct and therefore shouldn't be sued. Glad to hear it.

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post #92 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

Furthermore, the cellular-enabled iPad supports frequencies within the spectrum band of 700 MHz to 2,100 MHz. However, the scheduled 4G LTE network in the United Kingdom will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands whereas the iPad supports 4G LTE on the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz bands.

Be sure to update us when that becomes a real "first-world" problem for you.

I'll bet there is a world-mode LTE iPad (4th gen) long before LTE is actually rolled out across the UK.

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post #93 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Select a product. Even a blind man isn't as will see it.

I did. This is the only statement about 4G that I see. Did I miss it? I'll be the first to admit my eyesight isn't near what it used to be.

"The iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G model can roam worldwide on fast GSM/UMTS networks, including HSPA, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA. When you travel internationally, you can use a micro-SIM card from a local carrier. You can also connect to the 4G LTE networks of AT&T in the U.S. and Bell, Rogers, and Telus in Canada."

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post #94 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So you're saying Apple is technically and legally correct and therefore shouldn't be sued. Glad to hear it.

That's certainly not for me to decide.
IMO the advertising could be considered misleading. Perhaps the Aussie government thinks so too. Or not.

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post #95 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

That's certainly not for me to decide.
IMO the advertising could be considered misleading. Perhaps the Aussie government thinks so too. Or not.

This whole thing is very odd. I've never seen a case where using the definition of a standards body is considered misleading but using the colloquial definition generated by marketing firms is the legal definition.

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post #96 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

I'll bet there is a world-mode LTE iPad (4th gen) long before LTE is actually rolled out across the UK.

I have been unsuccessful in finding out how many LTE bands are supported by the Qualcomm MDM9615 presumed to be used in the 6th gen iPhone. Anyone know this?

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post #97 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

your iPhone says that because it is a 4g device. It just isn't an LTE device. But it is a legit status based on the actual definition of 4g which is based on speed and not style. Your iPhone was in an area with the required speed to be termed 4g

OK I'm confused then. Is my phone supposed to be faster now? I didn't see 4G in the status bar until I updated to the latest version of iOS.
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post #98 of 198
3/27/12 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has announced it will take Apple to court over "misleading" advertisements showing its newest touchscreen tablet runs at 4G speeds in Australia. [...]

AT&T is misleading consumers as well. They've re-named their HSPA+ network "4G" on their coverage maps.
Neither LTE nor HSPA+ is "4G." LTE's full name is "3rd Generation Partnership Project Long Term Evolution."
And "real 4G" exists only in laboratories.

Here's a link to definitions of HSPA+ and LTE (appropriately on 3GPP.org):

http://www.3gpp.org/Specifications

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post #99 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

AT&T is misleading consumers as well. They've re-named their HSPA+ network "4G" on their coverage maps.
Neither LTE nor HSPA+ is "4G." LTE's full name is "3rd Generation Partnership Project Long Term Evolution."
And "real 4G" exists only in laboratories.

Here's a link to definitions of HSPA+ and LTE (appropriately on 3GPP.org):

http://www.3gpp.org/Specifications

It's like Ground Hog's day around here. Again, the ITU is the definition that everyone first grabbed onto but they changed their definition in 2010. So why do you continue to use their antiquated and out of data definition? Also, since when is a cardinal number followed by a letter protected by and governed by the US government? Could you not call the iPhone 4 the 4G iPhone without being sued by the US government? Did we not refer to many iPods in this way without it being confusing we weren't referring to the ITU's definition of 2G, 3G, and 4G?

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post #100 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

OK I'm confused then. Is my phone supposed to be faster now? I didn't see 4G in the status bar until I updated to the latest version of iOS.

The ITU reclassified HSPA+ as "4G". Apple subsequently updated the status bar to report 4G for an HSPA+ data connection, starting in iOS 5.1.

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post #101 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toruk View Post

I agree. The iPad supports the 700 MHz and 2,100 MHz frequencies which is used in the United States and Canada for 4G LTE networking. The present and future 4G networks in Europe will use the 800 MHz, 1,800 MHz and 2,600 MHz cellular bands.

The cellular-enable iPad should be labeled accordingly, i.e. '3G' worldwide and '4G' in the United States and Canada.

Good point. The iPad 3 will NEVER be 4G compatible in the UK in its current format so how they can advertise it as 4G is beyond me. It's totally misleading to the average person. They should REMOVE all references to 4G outside the US and Canada.
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post #102 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Good point. The iPad 3 will NEVER be LTE compatible in the UK in its current format

Fixed.

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post #103 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Fixed.

Fixed what?

You missed the point. The iPad in the UK & everywhere else except the US & Canada should NOT say 4G anywhere on the box, on the website, on their adverts, on anything at all. They should make no mention of it whatsoever.
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post #104 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:50am
Basically, the Australian "authorities" are idiots and cannot read fine print or do not understand what "up to 4G" really means.

Up yours, Aussies.

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post #105 of 198
3/27/12 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Fixed what?

You missed the point. The iPad in the UK & everywhere else except the US & Canada should NOT say 4G anywhere on the box, on the website, on their adverts, on anything at all. They should make no mention of it whatsoever.

What are you basing your 4G definition on? Who is your source for 4G definition? Link please.
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post #106 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Fixed what?

You missed the point. The iPad in the UK & everywhere else except the US & Canada should NOT say 4G anywhere on the box, on the website, on their adverts, on anything at all. They should make no mention of it whatsoever.

<sigh>

OK, once more from the top...

The ITU, the international body responsible for defining telecommunications standards, has redefined 4G to include HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA, in addition to LTE (and Wi-Max). If that offends your delicate sensibilities, perhaps you could more effectively take the matter up with them?

In the mean time, as long as Apple isn't advertising LTE functionality in the UK -- LTE service which, I might add, doesn't even exist outside Bristol and possibly Cornwall -- why shouldn't they sell this as a 4G-compatible device, which it is? Or don't Three, Orange, Everything Everywhere, etc. support DC-HSDPA and HSPA+?

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post #107 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post

Okay, it notes on the Apple Australia website, "4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US; and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. See your carrier for details."

http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/compare/

Only in the fine print and that doesn't fly in this country. You cannot have a big banner saying one thing and tiny small print saying something else.

ISP's were prosecuted here for using the term "unlimited" but then using throttling when you went over a capped limit.
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post #108 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Telstra also has 4G (within 5km of capital city centres), but that doesn't stop them advertising it Australia wide.

Show me where Telstra have said that?? It's quite clear on there website to me.

http://www.telstra.com.au/bigpond-in...dband/bigpond/
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post #109 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hill60, why is it a footnote, intended as a technical clarification? Do you really honestly believe that a footnote is proper notice considering the site is only for Australian buyers of iPad's intended for use in Australia?

You are correct and this is very much illegal in this country.
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post #110 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Only in the fine print and that doesn't fly in this country. You cannot have a big banner saying one thing and tiny small print saying something else.

ISP's were prosecuted here for using the term "unlimited" but then using throttling when you went over a capped limit.

So Apple sells a device that is capable of a particular network connection but is not allowed to advertise that fact because carriers of a particular country aren't capable of supporting it. So Apple can't advertise there Macs can get 802.11n with spatial streams if I don't own a router capable of that connectivity, or is the connectivity still inherent to the device? Could someone who is from a rational country or traveling to one be confused to see the iPad (3) with only 3G?

PS: I'm stil confused as to why So many countries have made a marketing term cannon while ignoring the ITU-R's definition of 4G.

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post #111 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

And as it states right under the ad on the Australian site, which is the same as the US and Canada sites,


And on the Australian iPad Store, it clearly lets you choose a model and further states:


This is a world-wide launch. Attempting to satisfy all the idiosyncrasies for every country and having to modify each and every time it changed would be ludicrous. One would think that Aussies never leave their continent.

And this is a country (as all countries) that post laws such as:


P.S. No one is immune from such stupidity.

By the way, my car has a top speed of 220 km/hr. Should it have a sticker on it that states, "Not in your driveway".

So Apple is above the law in each country is it? The Italian government didn't think so....
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post #112 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If you buy it somewhere else and travel to the US, it suddenly becomes 4G compatible and you CAN use it on 4G i.e. it is 4G.

btw, what about parts of the world with only 2G available, would they need another disclaimer?

So I have to travel to another country to use the feature of the product?? Dumb argument...
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post #113 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's like Ground Hog's day around here. Again, the ITU is the definition that everyone first grabbed onto but they changed their definition in 2010. So why do you continue to use their antiquated and out of data definition? Also, since when is a cardinal number followed by a letter protected by and governed by the US government? Could you not call the iPhone 4 the 4G iPhone without being sued by the US government? Did we not refer to many iPods in this way without it being confusing we weren't referring to the ITU's definition of 2G, 3G, and 4G?

The ITU has not yet completed this work, the recommendation based upon the work in 2010 is still in process.

"These technologies will now move into the final stage of the IMT-Advanced process, which provides for the development in early 2012 of an ITU-R Recommendation specifying the in-depth technical standards for these radio technologies."

http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/p...s/2010/40.aspx

Perhaps if the governments spent more time supporting the standards groups to get this work done we would have a world wide standard that manufacturers could build upon.
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post #114 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:50am
It's only been 10 days or so... More BS is about to come from crybabies around the world looking for a payday!
I've seen the ads and they say "up to LTE" speeds and state what carriers it will work with.
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post #115 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So Apple sells a device that is capable of a particular network connection but is not allowed to advertise that fact because carriers of a particular country aren't capable of supporting it. So Apple can't advertise there Macs can get 802.11n with spatial streams if I don't own a router capable of that connectivity, or is the connectivity still inherent to the device? Could someone who is from a rational country or traveling to one be confused to see the iPad (3) with only 3G?

PS: I'm stil confused as to why So many countries have made a marketing term cannon while ignoring the ITU-R's definition of 4G.

Correct, it's illegal...in this country anyway.

Apple's biggest crime is the iPad 2( I have one) didn't get the personal hotspot with 5.1 too! :P :P :P :P If they left it out on purpose just to promote the new iPad then thats just a very shitty cynical thing to do!
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post #116 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elehcdn View Post

The ITU has not yet completed this work, the recommendation based upon the work in 2010 is still in process.

<snip>

Perhaps if the governments spent more time supporting the standards groups to get this work done we would have a world wide standard that manufacturers could build upon.

btw, based upon the 2009 proposal, even current LTE and WiMax proposals are not considered to be 4G. The specifications of the 2009 proposal call for 1Gb/s stationary and neither of those standards meet that mark. Until LTE-A and WiMax2 are released, according to this proposal, there are NO 4G devices anywhere in the world.

Is Australia ready to sue every manufacturer and service provider that is currently advertising 4G for their products?
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post #117 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

So I have to travel to another country to use the feature of the product?? Dumb argument...

You have to travel to the US or Canada to use LTE (a very specific acronym) but you can use 4G in any country that supports HSPA+ or better, providing your local networks support the bands in the device.

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post #118 of 198
3/27/12 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Correct, it's illegal...in this country anyway.

OK, then show me laws that state only LTE Advance can be called 4G and that you can't call something 802.11n capable if the customer can't connect to said network. In guessing you won't be able to find either.

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post #119 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

OK, then show me laws that state only LTE Advance can be called 4G and that you can't call something 802.11n capable if the customer can't connect to said network. In guessing you won't be able to find either.

The main point the ACCC is making is you can't sell something in big bold letters then say it won't work in the fine print. It's misleading and luckily for us Aussie's illegal.
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post #120 of 198
3/27/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

The main point the ACCC is making is you can't sell something in big bold letters then say it won't work in the fine print. It's misleading and luckily for us Aussie's illegal.

Has the ACCC begun proceedings to sue Telstra for misleading 4G claims since their network does not meet the ITU-R's requirement for 1Gb/sec in the recommendation that they are still writing? Otherwise they are all working off an ITU-R document that states that HSPDA+ is considered 4G.
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