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Apple says iPad battery charging works as intended - Page 2

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uninterested_Viewer View Post

Well, I'm more than willing to admit I know very little about battery technology. I'm just confused as to how having the battery display 100% when the battery is at 95% or less of its full charge can be talked away by a technical explanation. It seems like Apple made a judgement decision in its battery logic for this behavior- is there a technical reason Apple couldn't have had it read 100% when the battery was actually at 100%? (of course, fully support it staying at 100% when it is going through its discharge/charge cycle- I'm only concerned with that initial threshold for "100%")

I don't necessarily mean 'deception' in a negative sense- from the little I know, it seems to be a good, simple, solution for the consumer. Again, I fully admit I'm probably making the battery experts around here cringe .

For the same reason the Shuttle used to go to 110% throttle every launch. There are engineering specs and when they are met the device is at 100% of rated capability. Whether you call the actual physical "full" measurement 110% that or just cap it off on the display isn't relevant to any actual users.
post #42 of 75
I wonder if we can figure out what the next big faux issue that will arise with Apple products.

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post #43 of 75
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I wonder if we can figure out what the next big faux issue that will arise with Apple products.

When left in a Las Vegas desert the black iPad gets 10 degrees hotter than the white ipad

Gate
post #44 of 75
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Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

When left in a Las Vegas desert the black iPad gets 10 degrees hotter than the white ipad

Gate

Apple's 6th gen iPhone will support LTE... but only for their home continent... resulting in eLTEist-gate.

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post #45 of 75
Breaking: Apple Press Release in response to Consumer Reports' thermal heat accusations:

"You've got to be fucking kidding me."
post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

For the same reason the Shuttle used to go to 110% throttle every launch. There are engineering specs and when they are met the device is at 100% of rated capability. Whether you call the actual physical "full" measurement 110% that or just cap it off on the display isn't relevant to any actual users.

I guess it's like the crowd that buys a stereo because its dial goes to 11 while the competition only goes to 10.
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post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I guess it's like the crowd that buys a stereo because its dial goes to 11 while the competition only goes to 10.

Yes, but the new higher resolution of the retina display allows for the inclusion of the new setting, "12,'" in the same space that Apple's competitors can still only go to "10!"
post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Close yes but that only counts in horse shoes. This variability is often seen in iPhone batteries too.

And hand grenades. Don't forget hand grenades.
post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by msechea View Post

Hm, I'm guessing an hour and a half of additional charging is JUST before it reaches full charge?

Yes, as the charge function is nonlinear, it flattens progressively the more the cells are charged. It's just physics.
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post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uninterested_Viewer View Post

Well, I'm more than willing to admit I know very little about battery technology. I'm just confused as to how having the battery display 100% when the battery is at 95% or less of its full charge can be talked away by a technical explanation. It seems like Apple made a judgement decision in its battery logic for this behavior- is there a technical reason Apple couldn't have had it read 100% when the battery was actually at 100%? (of course, fully support it staying at 100% when it is going through its discharge/charge cycle- I'm only concerned with that initial threshold for "100%")

I don't necessarily mean 'deception' in a negative sense- from the little I know, it seems to be a good, simple, solution for the consumer. Again, I fully admit I'm probably making the battery experts around here cringe .

Very fair point. I can't see any explanation for this either. And this quote

Quote:
That's by design, Apple's Michael Tchao said to All Things D on Tuesday. All iOS devices, including the new iPad, will display that they are 100 percent charged just before the device reaches a fully charged state. The device will then continue charging, then discharge a bit, and recharge once again a cycle that will continue until the device is unplugged.

Just doesn't explain anything.

And another issue here is, how "just before" this just before is. Could it be possible that on smaller batteries on other iOS devices this just before is a bit different compared to the enormous battery of the new iPad? If people are reporting an hour to real 100% on the new iPad, it could very well be that the extra ten percent on say an iPhone takes another 10 minutes, but on the iPad it takes an hour. I am quite sure from experience that the last % of charge are always the slowest.

Can somebody please get technical here, because apple's simple explanation, amounts to no explanation at all, because it raises the obvious question why not report it at 100% when it is actually 100% and then continue with the discharge and recharge cycle.

I have a suspicion on why they done this, here's my theory: Maybe they guesstimated that no one pulls the plug out exactly at 100%, quite possibly people look at 90% wait around a bit and take the plug out after a few minutes of the reported 100%, at which stage the battery WILL be at an actual 100% because quite possobly it won't be on a discharge cycle.

Even if this, largely unfounded, theory of mine is wrong, it seems they need to tweak the algorithm for the new iPads larger battery and they haven't done so yet, yet they are not admitting this. It would be very interesting if someone could report actual and reported battery charge for their new iPad now, and after an iOS update, I am sure it will be different.
post #51 of 75
Yep, most high tech devices do this now, sitting at 100% isn't good for lithium ion batteries. The only difference is how they display it I guess. My Nexus S often displays a 98% charge after being plugged in overnight, then in a while it goes back up, then down. With a battery so much larger, it just takes longer to go from nearly complete charge to complete charge and trickle back down.
post #52 of 75
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post #53 of 75
Why does it matter? "100%" is relative. If when it displays "100%" it reasonably hits the stated battery life, then what's the problem?
post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Why does it matter? "100%" is relative. If when it displays "100%" it reasonably hits the stated battery life, then what's the problem?

The problem might be that on the new iPad when it says 100% it's an actual 90% and it doesn't hit the stated battery life as close, while on an iPod what with the smaller battery when it says 100% it's actually 95% and it comes more close. I would find it very interesting for someone to test actual battery at 100% now, and after an iOS update. I think they haven't brought a spokesman out at all things d for no reason, it seems to me like the typical company strategy (any company not just apple) of deny it first with a rational sounding explanation thn silently fix it with an update.
post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

The problem might be that on the new iPad when it says 100% it's an actual 90% and it doesn't hit the stated battery life as close, while on an iPod what with the smaller battery when it says 100% it's actually 95% and it comes more close. I would find it very interesting for someone to test actual battery at 100% now, and after an iOS update. I think they haven't brought a spokesman out at all things d for no reason, it seems to me like the typical company strategy (any company not just apple) of deny it first with a rational sounding explanation thn silently fix it with an update.

Wrong on all counts. Read some more before you go expounding conspiracy theories. The battery "expert" at the bottom of this is DisplayMate's Raymond Soneira. He notes that when the iPad is left to continue charging it gets 11.6 hours of use, well beyond the advertised 10 hours. Apple is saying that when the charge indicator hits 100% you get the 10 hours (9 hours for LTE). As for your conspiracy theory about corporate skulduggery, wouldn't Apple generate much more marketing hype if they could advertise 11 or 12 hours of battery use? Yet they have chosen to stick with the same 10 hours as earlier iPads and maximize the charge-discharge cycles for better battery life.

And this is Apple denying something and being evil? Give me a freaking break.
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Wrong on all counts. Read some more before you go expounding conspiracy theories. The battery "expert" at the bottom of this is DisplayMate's Raymond Soneira. He notes that when the iPad is left to continue charging it gets 11.6 hours of use, well beyond the advertised 10 hours. Apple is saying that when the charge indicator hits 100% you get the 10 hours (9 hours for LTE). As for your conspiracy theory about corporate skulduggery, wouldn't Apple generate much more marketing hype if they could advertise 11 or 12 hours of battery use? Yet they have chosen to stick with the same 10 hours as earlier iPads and maximize the charge-discharge cycles for better battery life.

And this is Apple denying something and being evil? Give me a freaking break.

Hold your horses with the projections about apple's evil-ness and conspiracy theories. And don't get so easily. There's a lingering question about why not reporting 100% when it's 100% actually and the technical explanation doesn't answer it so far. Another possible scenario is that apple are reporting 100% when they hit the 10 hour mark so as to get the advertised battery life, and reduce perceived charging times, and if somebody leaves it on more they get the full charge. Come to think of it that's probably why they done it and it doesn't seem to be connected to charge discharge cycles, that's hwy the obvious question hasn't had an obvious answer so far. I guess the extra bit to get to 11.6 hours gives an rather high wait time in this new battery so they display 100% at 10 hours, which is what they advertise rather than have people whine of how long it takes the iPad to reach from say 94% to 100%.

See we finally got to the bottom of it. Though apple techies answer wasn't in all honesty...
post #57 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

There is nothing to see here, move along. This is just some ignorant people who were wrong about Apple once again. Heatgate was bogus and now batterygate turns out to be completely bogus and untrue.

People who are part of ignorantgate should look into getting a clue, and do it quickly, for your own sakes. The moronic media is not much better than the idiots who propagate these stupid rumors. And anybody who falls for these dumb rumors and lies is frankly not too bright.

Which leaves Apple ][ the only un-ignorant, un-clueless, un-moronic, un-idiotic and un-stupid person in existence.
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post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

For the same reason the Shuttle used to go to 110% throttle every launch. There are engineering specs and when they are met the device is at 100% of rated capability. Whether you call the actual physical "full" measurement 110% that or just cap it off on the display isn't relevant to any actual users.

Off-topic but kind of related to what you posted about percentages, how is it possible for Priceline.com to be 102% institutionally owned?

Anyone? Typo?

http://www.google.com/finance?q=priceline
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post #59 of 75
Let's talk actual behavior on an actual new iPad, and what I have to offer pertains to my iPad alone, so consider it anecdotal - a data point. With the charger connected and while playing a video stored on a hard drive over my home WiFi, I've noticed the charge percentage decline to as low as 95% while the "charging" indicator still shows a full charge. As far as I'm concerned, this has had no perceptible effect on performance. When I quit the video, the percentage comes back up to 100 in short order. So the readings behave a little differently than the 2010 original iPad that I replaced. Otherwise, it means nothing as far as I'm concerned. If some kind of actual problem surfaces, we can expect Apple to issue a patch. They've done so before.

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post #60 of 75
I recall a similar furor when it came out that the Chevy Volt will report the battery as empty when it still technically has a 50% charge. It still delivers the all-electric range promised, and continues to run on the gas engine as promised.

However, due to the battery technology used, if it is frequently fully depeleted, the battery would have a very short life indeed, and be extremely costly to own. By using a bigger battery, and only using the top 50% of its working range, the battery should last as long as the rest of the car.

Hence displaying a 0% charge and running off the gas motor when the optimum state has been reached is much easier for a user to understand than exposing the complexity going on.

I don't think there is any difference; just detractors trying to cast proper design as lies.
post #61 of 75
In other hands, those who find fault with the battery are ... *charging* it wrong. Good to see the Steve Jobs spirit alive and well in Cupertino.
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Let's talk actual behavior on an actual new iPad, and what I have to offer pertains to my iPad alone, so consider it anecdotal - a data point. With the charger connected and while playing a video stored on a hard drive over my home WiFi, I've noticed the charge percentage decline to as low as 95% while the "charging" indicator still shows a full charge. As far as I'm concerned, this has had no perceptible effect on performance. When I quit the video, the percentage comes back up to 100 in short order. So the readings behave a little differently than the 2010 original iPad that I replaced. Otherwise, it means nothing as far as I'm concerned. If some kind of actual problem surfaces, we can expect Apple to issue a patch. They've done so before.

From what I understand, all *newer* battery operated Apple products....from iPods to iPhones to iPads to laptops....all run on battery power while plugged in, which is why the percentage drops if you're doing tasks that tax and deplete the battery faster than the charger can replenish power. If that wasn't the case then one would be able to use a completely depleted device immediately, once it's plugged into the charger. That may explain why you see your charge percentage dip while playing WiFi-streamed video. It might even dip more if you turn your screen brightness on full at the same time.

It sounds like a SW issue if all of the charge level indicators don't jibe. Just my .02.
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post #63 of 75
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Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

In other hands, those who find fault with the battery are ... *charging* it wrong. Good to see the Steve Jobs spirit alive and well in Cupertino.

That doesn't even make any sense.
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post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Actually, you have it backwards. Apple didn't overpromise, they overdelivered.

That is basically what I said. where did Apple over promise on the battery. they said up to 10 hours. can you get that off the 100% the iPad says (as soon as it says it).

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post #65 of 75
I've noticed that sometimes when my iPhone says "100%" when charging, but does not show the "Charged" icon, if I unplug it, it shows 98%.

I think that must be because of the trickle charging.
post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Wrong on all counts. Read some more before you go expounding conspiracy theories. The battery "expert" at the bottom of this is DisplayMate's Raymond Soneira. He notes that when the iPad is left to continue charging it gets 11.6 hours of use, well beyond the advertised 10 hours. Apple is saying that when the charge indicator hits 100% you get the 10 hours (9 hours for LTE). As for your conspiracy theory about corporate skulduggery, wouldn't Apple generate much more marketing hype if they could advertise 11 or 12 hours of battery use? Yet they have chosen to stick with the same 10 hours as earlier iPads and maximize the charge-discharge cycles for better battery life.

And this is Apple denying something and being evil? Give me a freaking break.

No it's Apple being obtuse. 100% has a specific meaning. If 100% (fully charged) means 11.6 hours, then 10 hours is 86%. The battery indicator should be an indicator, not a feel-good device.

I'm a fan and I like the product. But if you're going to have a battery indicator -- give real numbers.
post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naboozle View Post

No it's Apple being obtuse. 100% has a specific meaning. If 100% (fully charged) means 11.6 hours, then 10 hours is 86%. The battery indicator should be an indicator, not a feel-good device.

I'm a fan and I like the product. But if you're going to have a battery indicator -- give real numbers.

The charge indicator says "100%". But it doesn't say 100% of what.

You want to assume that it's 100% of full charge. But Apple is basically saying it's 100% of RATED charge and full charge is 10% more.

In any event, when it says 100%, you get the full rated battery life so complaining about it ridiculous.
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post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by msechea View Post

All iOS devices, including the new iPad, will display that they are 100 percent charged just before the device reaches a fully charged state.

Hm, I'm guessing an hour and a half of additional charging is JUST before it reaches full charge?

That would depend on what "just before" means - with a 10 hour battery life - it does not necessarily take 10 hours to fully charge.

Many years ago I saw a demonstration of a battery that could charge to 90% of capacity in something like 2 minutes - then would continue to full charge over the course of an hour or so. Perhaps this has finally made it into consumer products.

If the iPad charges to say 95% of full charge in a couples hours then continues to charge from 95% to 100% over the course of another two hours, from a UI perspective you have two ways to present that to the user. 1. show the specific charge level 2. show 100% whee charging for all levels between 95 and 100%. With option 1 you run the risk of the user wondering why their device charged quickly up to 95% then "stopped" charging - that would likely be very obvious to lots of users - leaving them wondering why did it suddenly stop charging and leading to lots of tech calls etc complaining that the charger has stopped working. with option 2 the risk is that sometimes when people unhook from the charger it may not in fact be 100% charged - despite the device reporting that it is - resulting in differing use on battery times - this would be most obvious with users who yank the power cord immediately upon reaching the 100% charge level on the display.

For my $ it would seem that a better explanation would the first case - simply document that the system charges to 95% on rapid charge - then tops off the battery in a slow charge mode - in order to deliver the best overall battery life. Compared to the second case where in effect the device is lying to us in order to mask the technical complexity of dual charging modes.
post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The charge indicator says "100%". But it doesn't say 100% of what.

Seriously? Maybe it's 100% of the annual Corn yield of Yugoslavia. Probably it was the picture of a battery which led my mind astray.
post #70 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naboozle View Post

No it's Apple being obtuse. 100% has a specific meaning. If 100% (fully charged) means 11.6 hours, then 10 hours is 86%. The battery indicator should be an indicator, not a feel-good device.

I'm a fan and I like the product. But if you're going to have a battery indicator -- give real numbers.

Charge rates aren't linear. There's circuitry and software determining optimal charge cycles, to protect and extend battery life. Moreover, battery depletion isn't linear, so attempting to make percentage calculations working backwards from a given charge isn't useful.

My guess is that this behavior is actually pretty typical, but that the iPad's relatively large battery and lengthy charge times make the fudge factor bigger as well, so that it become noticeable. I've yet to see any convincing calculations as to exactly what that fudge factor is, however, for the reasons above.
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post #71 of 75
I've not read of anyone getting the “Not Charging” message after their New iPad reaches 100%. I don't mean while it's plugged into a computer. I mean while plugged into the New iPad's charger in the wall. That's my beef. I get this all the time after it reaches 100%. And its got me bummed because I want the 1 watt trickle charge to continue while it's plugged in. Because of this displayed message with no black plug inside the grey battery icon, I can't tell if it's trickle charging or not. No one else seeing this?

After reading this Next Web article I see it doesn't trickle charge but rather charges and discharges in a cycle near the top of a full charge. Michael Tchao does a pretty good job of explaining the process in this piece. But that still doesn't resolve my “Not Charging” from the wall display issue. Right now it's in the traditional “100%” with the black plug icon in the grey battery icon display. But in no time at all it'll be back to the “Not Charging” next to an empty grey battery icon display confusing me about my New iPad.

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post #72 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Charge rates aren't linear. There's circuitry and software determining optimal charge cycles, to protect and extend battery life. Moreover, battery depletion isn't linear....

Probably you would need something along the lines of a... hmm.... computer to calculate those non-linear factors.
post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

That would depend on what "just before" means - with a 10 hour battery life - it does not necessarily take 10 hours to fully charge.

Many years ago I saw a demonstration of a battery that could charge to 90% of capacity in something like 2 minutes - then would continue to full charge over the course of an hour or so. Perhaps this has finally made it into consumer products.

If the iPad charges to say 95% of full charge in a couples hours then continues to charge from 95% to 100% over the course of another two hours, from a UI perspective you have two ways to present that to the user. 1. show the specific charge level 2. show 100% whee charging for all levels between 95 and 100%. With option 1 you run the risk of the user wondering why their device charged quickly up to 95% then "stopped" charging - that would likely be very obvious to lots of users - leaving them wondering why did it suddenly stop charging and leading to lots of tech calls etc complaining that the charger has stopped working. with option 2 the risk is that sometimes when people unhook from the charger it may not in fact be 100% charged - despite the device reporting that it is - resulting in differing use on battery times - this would be most obvious with users who yank the power cord immediately upon reaching the 100% charge level on the display.

For my $ it would seem that a better explanation would the first case - simply document that the system charges to 95% on rapid charge - then tops off the battery in a slow charge mode - in order to deliver the best overall battery life. Compared to the second case where in effect the device is lying to us in order to mask the technical complexity of dual charging modes.

Good post (and you are one of the few people here who got it), but it's not really lying to cover technical complexity, it's lying to cover long charging battery times in the last % of charge, and a long total charging time. I wouldn't mind this so much to be honest (although I would have preferred an accurate battery meter) but I do mind is having someone speak officially from apple and lying again with nonsense obtuse tech talk about charge and discharge cycles which have nothing to do with this issue whatsoever.

Just come upfront and say, we put 100% at the advertised 10hours battery life but you can get more time, but at much slower charging times if you leave it on more. Why lie, again?
post #74 of 75
The new iPad gets great battery life! I do not care how it gets it.

I get three days of use out of the new iPad. I use it steady about 4 hours a day. I get OVER ten hours of actual use before I recharge it overnight. And when I do recharge it, it is at 9-12% battery life still!

Props to Apple!
post #75 of 75
I have good battery life also. I have brightness at 50% auto and using it quite intensely because I have all day to play.
It's now 1:20am and battery is still at 32%. My eyes need to rest :/ You can't drain the bat in one day except you are on sugar.
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