Sweden, UK may also investigate Apple's '4G' marketing for new iPad - Page 4

But you see, this is the problem ... The ITU is THE United Nations governing body that DOES make the recommendations that governments are supposed to follow. And the current recommendation allows for HSPA+ to be considered 4G. If you want to abide by the recommendation that they are working on, then the device must be able to support 100 Mb/sec mobile and 1 Gb/sec stationary, which no LTE device can reach. According to the recommendation, you would need an LTE Advanced device to reach those speeds and none of those exist.

So, the crux is ... If you use the older recommendation, the iPad meets the spec - if you use the newer proposed spec, then the Aussie Telcos do not meet the spec either. For the Aussie, Swedish, UK, or any other body to unilaterally determine that LTE meets what is considered to be 4G is blatantly hypocritical and smacks of either pandering to their public or protectionism of their telcos.

NextG is a Telstra trademark for 850MHz 3G, like STD for long-distance and Message Bank for voicemail.

Telstra were government owned and sold off by a previous government.

Maybe Apple should have just trademarked WiFi+4G™.


PS: Why aren't the Aussies up in arms about Telestra advertising NextG? The next generation after 3G is 4G. If people confused about Apple's 4G clearly referring to the ITU's HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA classification then it seems impossible that they'd be able to wrap their heads about Telestra's NextG still referring to what they call 3G.

Are the 3G(+) networks really as uselessly bad in the UK, as you seem to imply?

So if someone travels to the US with an iPad and runs up a large roaming bill due to the high speed of being connected to 4G, would Apple become liable for NOT advertising the 4G functionality?

When the UK gets 4G next year, there will be a new model of iPad, meanwhile you can use the current one on limited 4G networks in North America, as Apple plainly states.

Mainly due to Sprint advertising WiMax as 4G which was shown to be slower than the 3G (+) available on other networks, in real world tests.

The problem is there is a large performance overlap of 3G & 4G with a perception that 4G "must be better" when quite often it isn't.

This is especially so at this early stage of the game.

Apple iPad WiFi + but only sometimes 4G

Yeah, yeah. And Ericsson was the largest telco equipment maker in the world; Nokia, next door, the largest mobile handset maker, etc.

Irrelevant.

Not to the original message that the response was to, which was quite badly erroneous considering Sweden indeed was the first to deploy LTE (which clearly annoys the ..... out of you).

Oh no, I am not annoyed in the least. Seriously. Just confused.

I was simply pointing out that to suggest that someone implemented a "standard" (or whatever else) "first" is not terribly relevant to anything in particular. Was the poster saying that Sweden therefore has "true LTE" and therefore, they have a legitimate claim to sue? And that the US/Canadian versions of it are somehow inferior, and therefore Apple does not have a leg to stand on? Or something else? What exactly is the point?

Having been the first or biggest or best or cutting-edge at some point in the past, even relatively recent past, has very little to do with the rapid pace of technological change, shifting legal definitions and issues, and most important, what is at the heart of this story.

Perhaps you can explain the connection between being first and this story is?

To be fair, the UN's definition of "4G" includes the fast HSDPA that is included with the new iPad. I notice, though, that Apple's websites now have been clarified to state that LTE (which is the minimum that carriers in many countries consider 4G) works only in the US and Canada.

I suspect that this will largely blow over. LTE isn't really very developed in most countries, and even where it is it doesn't offer much different download speeds from high speed 3G networks. The US is a different story because our 3G networks are overloaded.

That has been the case since day 1. Itself only change I'm seeing is the removable of the 4G logo in the images into a generic one representing mobile connectivity.

Sweden being the first to implement LTE is highly relevant to this story. You can easily imagine that having the most advanced telecommunications in the world has been publicized, talked about on TV, printed in newspapers. Telcos have been advertising services based on this technology. In brief, the average citizen has been made well aware that the technology exists in the country.

Now, Apple is selling a product that claims to make use of that same (or one that has a similar name) technology. It is therefore more important that Apple makes it crystal clear that the 4G iPad will in fact NOT use this advanced technology in Sweden.

It may be true that Apple is correct in using the 4G label, and Sweden isn't. That is however not the point of this discussion. The point is whether the average consumer will be informed sufficiently well of the possibilities once they decide to buy a 4G iPad.

Apple is scared? No fuck is give. Check your packaging or Apple website/store. Apple is selling Wi-Fi + 4G iPads. Not LTE iPads. Just ask ITU, 4G is so broadly defined that the latest iPads can easily conform to.

The original post that you responded to was itself a response to a post, where the poster said: "If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.".

That is where the answer "Sweden was in fact the first to implement LTE" came to play. Thus the relevance (not directly to the article itself).

Sweden and many of the "early adopters" marketed LTE as 4G -> 4G = LTE in consumers minds. Thus the consumer confusion if iPad 4G doesn't provide them with the 4G they expect even though they might factually get better speeds with DC HSDPA. So there is a bit of relevance even to the main thread.

And I don't believe anyone is claiming the US LTE to be inferior on a technical basis, just that the US spectrum allocation differs from a large part of the rest of this globe (which is actually the root cause for the confusion, which Apple's marketing didn't help with)

Regs, Jarkko

So what are you trying to say, I am referring to gullible people not where LTE is first implemented.

Since we are at it what have the done to promote a world standard LTE?

That is not true. The Apple web sites for at least Sweden and Norway did say LTE connectivity in SE and NO during the first few days after the key note. They also mentioned the local operators that could give you access to LTE networks. After complaints from consumers and talks between operators and Apple, at least the Swedish operators made a statement saying that the new iPad would not connect to any Swedish LTE networks. After this the text on the websites was rewritten.

if it's not true then prove it. There has been quite a bit of bellyaching over Apple not including LTE bands for small countries so show us the screenshots and promotional images that say that LTE was capable in other countries.

http://www.telstra.com.au/mobile-pho...nformation/4g/

You claimed Apple's website claimed that LTE was capable with the iPad 3 in Australia. You have yet to prove it.

I did? Where exactly?

Well, not you but Brum, but you're attempting to defend his point but failed. Brum claims:
Then you replied to a link to Telesta that does not prove that Apple stated in any way that the iPad could connect to LTE outside the US and Canada. So where is your proof?


PS: My apologies for confusing you two but I can't keep track of all individual posters making poor arguments.

I think I was the one that was confused as I thought you were asking about telcos promoting 4G as LTE, not Apple. Not a poor argument, only a misunderstanding.

Stupidity has prevailed. Apple has changed their site to reflect terms such as "ultrafast wireless" and "really really fast" instead of using industry accepted terminology.

Ah. Yeah, the conversation started with a claim with Apple not mentioning that LTE would only work in the US or Canada for several days after the announcement when that is not true. Clearly other countries have LTE, just with other bands than what is used in the North America.

Not in my opinion. Clarity and transparency prevailed. Apple reworded their Aussie site to plainly state right above the product "It is not compatible with current Australian 4G LTE networks and WiMAX networks."

Instead you think Apple should have made navigating an iPad sale a test of intelligence and reasoning. No, I think Apple did it right this time.

On the Apple Store page it does say "It is not compatible with current Australian 4G LTE networks and WiMAX networks." but do you see what is listed just above it?

WiFi + 4G So the whole argument that Apple can't brand that specific product WiFi + 4G is now being redacted because they put the same info that was already on the page in another place on the page? You call that winning?

Yes I do because there was never a statement even close to that on the order page, Not even a tiny footnote.

The same footnote has existed since day one.

...and where did you find that footnote? On every page? Not even close and certainly not on the page a purchaser uses to order one.

Apparently your intent is to imply that Apple was right all along in the way they clarified the feature. Claiming it was plain and appeared on every page is false.

Here is a post from March 09, 2012 that links to and quotes the purchase page.

• http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...2&postcount=81

It also shows the same information today on the purchase.

My intent to show the hypocrisy of the constantly moving goalposts for this lame duck complaint.


Let's not forget that Apple has replaced the 4G logo with a generic wireless logo (a week or so ago) and replaced the iPad/4g sites with ipad/ultrafast-wireless for those offended countries? So they can't use 4G in the URL but it's acceptable when referring to the product? Perfectly reasonable¡

So where on that page does it say 4G services aren't available in the UK? Where does it even say 4G services are only available in North America?

It doesn't. Period. It leaves a less than well-informed buyer that they can contact a provider to get 4G services.
"3G and 4G service may also be available from other carriers", right under a list of suggested data plan providers in the UK. (My bold)

There's no reason for that sentence at all unless it was Apple's intent to leave a false impression without outright fibbing.No doubt some buyers were believing that meant someone in the UK was offering it. There aren't any available in the UK market. Simple enough to come right out and say it rather than leave it open to interpretation. That's the way they're stating it on the Aussie page now.

Don't worry about Apple, now were have people like this spreading FUD

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/technology...-compatible-nz

Oh geez, they're saying 4G is compatible in the New Zealand market? Why would anyone continue to say Apple has been plenty clear. Do the same on every country specific order page as they've done in Australia. Unless of course Apple's intent is to leave a few buyers confused. After all once they get an iPad they'll grow to like it anyway and won't bother returning it in all likelihood.

That's what the "Mac expert" said, but then again, no LTE here yet though.

That's interesting. I think when NexG was rolled out, nobody assumed it was 4G, since 4G was very rare, and they didn't call it 4G, just NexG.

Then, when LTE became available in the past year, it is branded as "4G", "powered by NexG".

Check out the two very different coverage maps, one for mobile, and another for "mobile broadband":

http://www.telstra.com.au/mobile-pho...arch/index.htm

http://www.telstra.com.au/mobile-pho...broadband.html

I think Telstra has dodged the bullet here by simply specifying expected speeds at various locations, without going into any distinct detail about whether it's HS-something or DC or LTE.

They've also initially promised only within 5km from CBD for "4G", and not called NexG "4G", just all powered by the NexG network.

In other words, you get a NexG device, and depending on your location, your speed is what your speed is. If you have a 4G NexG, then you have the best chance of the fastest speeds. Simple enough for most people.

And that said, even my location which is about 10km from Perth CBD, it's almost on the edge of coverage. Telstra should be able to have 4G LTE for within 12km of most capital cities by end of the year, hopefully. Maybe in time for the next iPad, they'll have 4G LTE for within 15km of all Australian capital cities, and the iPad will hopefully support it.

In Perth at least LTE coverage to the West and East of the CBD extends almost to 10km from the CBD, though only 5+km from the CBD North and South. Notice the bizarre aberration as well where LTE signal seems to be shot over 10km out to sea.

Very strangely, note that Telstra DC HSPA+ is NOT called 4G, even though they easily could have done so (as we've been debating). It's a stealth upgrade, maybe because they are focusing promised fast speeds for 4G LTE, and DC HSPA+ was more of a silent upgrade?

Interestingly, in the coverage maps there's no way to tell whether you're on "regular 3G" or DC HSPA+.

There's ongoing gripes with Telstra, but generally in the West Coast of Oz Optus and Vodafone is far, far behind so Telstra NexG is pretty much the only premium choice right now, AFAIK. WiMax (Vivid) is useless, even the Vivid resellers don't want to recommend it unless they're very confident of your location.

As for the frequency bands, Gizmodo Aust has a good quote from Telstra:

"Weve reframed our 1800MHz spectrum (previously used for 2G) to offer Australias first 4G LTE network"

"We intend to bid for additional spectrum in the 700MHz and 2600MHz bands that the government is planning to put up for auction at the end of 2012.

The 700MHz band has great propagation characteristics as it is a lower band like the 850MHz band we currently offer our Next G network on. The 700MHz band in the Asia Pacific region uses a different technical configuration than the 700MHz band used in the US.

The 2600MHz band is likely to be one of the main 4G LTE bands used for international roaming.

Telstra is re-using its 2100MHz spectrum to add capacity to the Next G network in areas of high demand, so that customers can continue to enjoy the speeds and reliability they expect from this network."

Looks like this will be sorted in mediation of sorts. See:

The Federal Court has accepted an undertaking from Apple Pty Limited in response to an urgent application filed by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) earlier today.

The ACCC has alleged that the promotion of the "iPad with WiFi + 4G" by Apple Pty Limited and Apple Inc is misleading because it represents to Australian consumers that the product "iPad with WiFi + 4G" can, with a SIM card, connect to a 4G mobile data network in Australia, when this is not the case.

Today Apple Pty Ltd provided an undertaking to the Federal Court that until further order or hearing, Apple Pty Limited would as soon as is reasonably practicable and by no later than 5 April 2012:

display a statement that the This product supports very fast cellular networks. It is not compatible with current Australian 4G LTE networks and WiMAX Networks in its promotional materials, on its website and online store
distribute signage with the same wording to resellers to be displayed at points of sale
contact by email any persons for whom Apple Pty Limited has an email address and who have purchased the iPad with WiFI + 4G between 16 March and 28 March 2012 (including pre-orders prior to 16 March 2012) including statements to the effect that This product supports very fast cellular networks. It is not compatible with current Australian 4G LTE networks and WiMAX Networks and that such persons are entitled to return the product and request a refund within a timeframe specified in the email.
A directions hearing has been scheduled for 16 April 2012 at 9:30am. A mediation has been ordered for 18 April 2012. A hearing on liability has been set down commencing 2 May 2012.

Release # NR 059/12
Issued: 28th March 2012

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...fromItemId/142

First of all, you act like you think you own the world, claiming that anyone not agreeing with you have poor arguments. It is not like Apple left only small countries out when it comes to LTE, but the whole EU. We are talking about a market that has twice as big population as US.

I have no clue on how to get a cached version of a website that is a month old. But since you are claiming that I am wrong and that Apple never promised such thing, why do you not get the proof that for example the site "http://www.apple.com/se/ipad/features/" does say that LTE is not supported by the four local operators. Check the dates March 7 and March 8 and March 9...
I ran the Macworld article in google translation tool and below you can see the result. It states that Apple is admits that it was a mistake stating that 4G in Sweden was supported on the new iPad. See the translation:

Apple: No 4g in Sweden

Joel Westerholm

Anna Mueller

Apple confirms that the new iPhone will not be able to handle 4g in Sweden even though it was promised on the Swedish site. "It was a mistake," says Apple.
Apple's Swedish press contact told Telekom Online that the new iPhone does not support 4G (LTE) in Sweden.

Until yesterday morning, it was Apple's Swedish site that 4G will be supported by Vodafone, Three, Telia and Tele second

- It was a mistake, says Petter Arnstedt, press officer at Apple in Sweden, to Telekom Online.

The reason is that the new iPhone does not handle the frequencies used for 4G in Sweden. It handles only lte in the bands 2.1 GHz and 700 MHz. Europe uses the 2.6 gigahertz and 800 megahertz. The bands that Apple is currently occupied by television and 3G.

The text that promised to 4g would work in Sweden was up on Apple's Swedish web notified until yesterday afternoon. But after MacWorld wrote about the problem of frequencies changed the text on the Apple site.

In Sweden, one could use the new iPhone to surf in 3G with a maximum of 42 megabits per second, if the mobile network technology supports HSPA + dc.

When MacWorld reaches Petter Arnstedt he has no further comment, but refers to what is in the Telecom Online.