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Sweden, UK may also investigate Apple's '4G' marketing for new iPad - Page 2

post #41 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Huh? From the same link, 1st page:

Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.
Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world. So you can download content, stream video and browse the web at amazing speeds. Learn more

Why should people have to read fine print every time they buy a product. A feature like this should have a description in plain sight.

All I see is Ultra-fast Wireless. Are you sure you are at the UK page?

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post #42 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:02am
Just curious, can international customers choose whether they get a Verizon or AT&T new iPad? It is not clear which model one would get by default, considering that none would work as 4G on the local network...
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post #43 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It all seems above board to me.
World ready. And very well connected.
You use your iPad a lot, so you want it with you wherever you go. The new iPad offers the most comprehensive support for networks around the world. Its designed with mobile antennas that access a larger frequency spectrum. That means you can get online almost anywhere you are. You can even pop in a local SIM card to get a connection when youre travelling. Learn more about iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G

Really really fast is your only option.
The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over up to 4G LTE*. So you can browse the web, stream content or download a film at incredibly fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies, including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA the fastest 3G networks out there. Youll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+**. It even shows a new icon.



Built with the latest in wireless technology, the new iPad lets you connect to fast data networks around the world.*

* 4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

** Based on theoretical peak speeds. Actual speeds will be lower.

Solip, is that info posted on the pages where a customer orders the new iPad, or some other pages on the site, for instance if a customer wanted more information? I know on the Aussie product order page it never said anywhere that the iPad 4G wasn't compatible with any Australian 4G services.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #44 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Launching a product world wide and advertising its 4g capability when in fact it only has this capability in north America seems like shooting yourself in the foot. Did Apple really use 4g as a selling point internationally?

Bullshit! Here's the reality. THERE ARE NO TRUE 4G NETWORKS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!!!! NONE!!! The new iPad is as much 4G as those claiming "4G LTE", even when there is no compatible LTE access, when you factor in its HPSA+ band exceeds the lower end of the Australian so called "4G LTE" technical spec as Apple has been delivering 10+ Mbps. This whole issue is a sham as the fact is that the carriers themselves have been totally misleading consumers. Further, it is well known that it is Samsung that has been complaining and stirring the pot.
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post #45 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:14am
HSPA+ is 4G, as determined by the group that decides such things. Do these countries not have HSPA+?
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post #46 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Bullshit! Here's the reality. THERE ARE NO TRUE 4G NETWORKS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!!!! NONE!!! The new iPad is as much 4G as those claiming "4G LTE", even when there is no compatible LTE access, when you factor in its HPSA+ band exceeds the lower end of the Australian so called "4G LTE" technical spec as Apple has been delivering 10+ Mbps. This whole issue is a sham as the fact is that the carriers themselves have been totally misleading consumers. Further, it is well known that it is Samsung that has been complaining and stirring the pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LTE_networks
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post #47 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Huh? From the same link, 1st page:

Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.
Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world. So you can download content, stream video and browse the web at amazing speeds. Learn more

Why should people have to read fine print every time they buy a product. A feature like this should have a description in plain sight.

And if you click on that you get -

'Really really fast is your only option.
The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over up to 4G LTE.2 So you can browse the web, stream content or download a film at incredibly fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies, including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA the fastest 3G networks out there. Youll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+.3'

It's hard to argue that this is not very misleading. The fine print argument is rubbish, and everybody knows that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Maybe Apple creates these small, silly upsets on purpose to get free publicity. Oh shit, did I create gategate?!

But I have to admit it has crossed my mind. But really, I don't think so. All publicity arguably is good publicity but bad publicity is a real pain and reduces customers trust.

I really think this was known to Apple (they aren't technically lying) and was settled with a shrug. But its a sleaze ball kind of tactic and much as I love Apple they should be taken to task for it.
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post #48 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonteponte View Post

To be fair I think Apple f****d pretty badly here in Sweden with the iPad New launch regarding the "4G" thing. The operators did not seem to have a clue that the new iPad would not work on their 4G network even after the announcement was made by Apple. Our largest operator (and Apples original and exclusive launch partner) could not even answer questions about it several days after people started asking questions about it here and they even referred to blog posts on enthusiast sites clearing things up before they even seemed to get hold of an Apple representative to verify that it was in fact the case.

And they still sell it as "4G" obviously, even though they have a disclaimer in small print on the same page. 4G here is LTE and nothing else. Now the new iPad is very fast on upgraded 3G networks and has been verified to be up to four times faster on a good 3G network compared to iPad 2 so people will probably be happy anyway.

But! Since TeliaSonera is heavily pushing their 4G (LTE) network as they where the first operator in the world to launch LTE a couple of years back, and really want people to sign up to more expensive service plans it's probably a *huge* dissapointment to them that the new iPad is not going to help them do that. And it is beyond embarrasing that they did not seem to know this even after the announcement...

So. Apple really need to start working on their communication skills when it comes to stuff like this or the operators might go from being pushed around to feeling downright ignored.

Personally I fully understand the tradeoffs here and why support of the additional bands where not included but it still reflects really badly on Apple that they haven't been crystal clear in this from the get go.

Clueless!!!! This is such bullshit! It is the carriers that are misleading consumers! There are no true 4G LTE networks AMYWHERE on the world! They all fall way short of true LTE speeds of 100 Mbps! And in fact, as you point out, with the wireless technology included with the new iPad (HSPA+) it EXCEEDS the lower technical spec range claimed by so called 4G LTE networks. People are being duped by the carriers themselves!!!
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post #49 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Bullshit! Here's the reality. THERE ARE NO TRUE 4G NETWORKS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!!!! NONE!!! The new iPad is as much 4G as those claiming "4G LTE", even when there is no compatible LTE access, when you factor in its HPSA+ band exceeds the lower end of the Australian so called "4G LTE" technical spec as Apple has been delivering 10+ Mbps. This whole issue is a sham as the fact is that the carriers themselves have been totally misleading consumers. Further, it is well known that it is Samsung that has been complaining and stirring the pot.

Bullshit to you. This is techno gobbledegook and is a weak argument. Apple isn't technically lying but they are misleading. For some companies that works, for Apple it is a cheap shot and I suspect really ill advised.
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post #50 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Couldn't Apple make all those points moot with a simple straightforward statement on the order page that 4G services aren't available to your country? They have country-specific pages making it any easy thing for them to do...
unless thy have marketing reasons not to do so.

This is probably the fairest comment I've seen yet on the issue:
"I think, the best a company can do in such a situation, is to be very clear about the capabilities by using the terms for technical capabilities that are usually used in the respective country. And by "very clear" I do not necessarily mean a footnote in small print in light grey on white background. It's a matter of showing that you respect your (potential) customers."
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...4&postcount=68

Apple did make a simple and straightforward statement. They said that LTE was available in the US and Canada and that 'up to 4G' was available elsewhere. Since HSPA+ is classified as 4G, that's not an incorrect statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Huh? From the same link, 1st page:

Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.
Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world. So you can download content, stream video and browse the web at amazing speeds. Learn more

Why should people have to read fine print every time they buy a product. A feature like this should have a description in plain sight.

Read post #40.

It's not really fine print - it's very clearly spelled out. But, yes, if you buy things without understanding what they're capable of, you may get burned.
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post #51 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

All I see is Ultra-fast Wireless. Are you sure you are at the UK page?


Are you kidding or just hard of seeing?
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post #52 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:21am
I'm more and more getting the feeling the next big Apple-Gate will be a class action lawsuit pointing out Apple does not have labels on the iPad informing people which side to watch.

Just think of all the sad people out their sitting confused and disappointed by turning on their expensive electronics and staring fixedly at an illuminated APPLE logo not knowing what to do next?

Leading, of course, to the entire replay of anttena-gate: "You're holding it wrong" for the haters. I mean why should the user have to adapt to the thing only having ONE "correct" way (according to Apple's failure of a design) to have the thing face?

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post #53 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Oh shit, did I create gategate?!

+1
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post #54 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

The ASA will definitely get involved in the UK. They've ruled against Apple, and even God, in the past.

The ASA at its best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The fact is that it IS a 4G LTE device. Let's say that I live in a cave where regular cell service is not accessible. I buy an iPhone 4S. I can not plausibly claim that it's not a 3G phone because I live in a cave and can't get service. It remains a 3G phone even if I can't get service where I am. It doesn't magically stop being a 3G phone when I carry it into a cave. Similarly, a LTE device does not stop being an LTE device if I take it a location where LTE isn't available.

The issue is not whether the iPad is a 4G LTE device. The dispute is pertained to whether Apple is using the term '4G' to market the service or the technology.

Additionally, your analogy refers to the limitations of a particular area. However, the complaints are broader and are dispersed within a country.
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post #55 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

They all fall way short of true LTE speeds of 100 Mbps!

1) LTE isn't a moniker given to a particular network speed. It's the underlying technology.

2) If you meant to write 4G instead of LTE, as is common with people claiming that 4G is 100 Mb/s that is also false. Even if we take the outdated ITU-R definition of 4G a tech isn't 4G simply because it can achieve 100 Mb/s on the download. There are many other metrics that have to achieve a minimum performance level. Latency and upload speed are most notable.

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post #56 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

1. According to the ITU (which sets the standards), HSPA+ is 4G. So Apple is well within its rights to call it a 4G device. One could possibly make an exception in countries where the local law uses a different definition (like Australia), but even that argument would be weak.

2. The fact is that it IS a 4G LTE device. Let's say that I live in a cave where regular cell service is not accessible. I buy an iPhone 4S. I can not plausibly claim that it's not a 3G phone because I live in a cave and can't get service. It remains a 3G phone even if I can't get service where I am. It doesn't magically stop being a 3G phone when I carry it into a cave. Similarly, a LTE device does not stop being an LTE device if I take it a location where LTE isn't available.

3. Apple's advertising is quite clear as to which countries can use the iPad via LTE. No deception.

4. Now, it's entirely possible that one might be able to make a claim against the carrier who sold you an iPad if they tell you that it will use LTE in your country and it doesn't. But that's not Apple's fault.

This is really pretty much all there's to it.
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post #57 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Anyway, run it past me again: we were all buying HD Ready tvs and there was no HD signal?

Maybe Apple should have said the new iPad was "4G Ready"

:-)
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post #58 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:27am
How about ANY of the carriers meeting real 4G specified speeds?
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post #59 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


What's funny is that at first people were complaining because it didn't have LTE that worked in their country... yet now those same people are saying Apple lied to them about LTE working in their country.

My guess:

You have zero evidence for this statement of "fact".
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post #60 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Maybe Apple should have said the new iPad was "4G Ready"

:-)

Apple should have been specific. Most people approach technology on a very simplistic level. 4G is 4G. Who the fuck knows about all these different protocols? In simple terms (and Apple likes simplicity, right?) the iPad works with 4G in North America. Period. No need to present the the 4G moniker all over the world if it is useless.
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post #61 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Maybe Apple should have said the new iPad was "4G Ready"

:-)

That would have been a better way to do things.

Good enough? I dunno.
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post #62 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:35am
Why isn't it simply 3G + US LTE?

Problem solved.
I'm not a pessimist. I'm an optimist, with experience.
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I'm not a pessimist. I'm an optimist, with experience.
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post #63 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Are you kidding or just hard of seeing?

Where does it say it connects to 4G?! the only mention of 4G is in the device name "iPad with WiFi+4G". The iPad is definitely is capable of connecting to 4G networks and the hardware to do so exist in the device. At the bottom of the same page it says:

4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

What part of "SUPPORTED ONLY ON" is hard to understand?!
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post #64 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Maybe Apple should have said the new iPad was "4G Ready"

:-)

I like it but with the bellyaching that's going on that probably wouldn't have worked.

The psychology of the positional good is controlling this now. I think people are just unhappy the Americans have a feature they don't. Remember that the US has a completely backwards mobile network that will always be behind the rest of the world¡

To a lesser extent I'm sure some feel jagged that they have to buy a feature that is no good to then in their home country. But that's silly because there is scarcely a mobile device that doesn't have tech one won't use. I certainly don't use most of the bands in my iPhone and iPad to connect in the US. Çest la vie.

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post #65 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Apple did make a simple and straightforward statement. They said that LTE was available in the US and Canada and that 'up to 4G' was available elsewhere. Since HSPA+ is classified as 4G, that's not an incorrect statement.

Why tell you where it is available instead of plainly saying it's not available to you from any carrier in your country. Apple's way leaves room for misunderstanding, and thus it's an issue for some consumer groups and regulatory agencies.

I have no doubt you understand that. There's no reason other than marketing for Apple not to make it easily understood that it's not 4G compatible in your country. Period. It matters not if a Swedish buyer can travel to New York and get 4G service.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #66 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

Why isn't it simply 3G + US LTE?

Problem solved.

1) That has its own problems because you excluded WiFi. Personally I think including WiFi is probably redundant. If you don't know if these devices have WiFI then you probably don't know if you have a WiFI router at home.

2) US's LTE tech isn't any different than the world's LTE. It's not the homegrown TD-LTE like China Mobile and Softbank are using. The only difference is the operating bands. They clearly state what bands it connects to... but then they go even farther and tell you what carriers and countries.

3) At this point they should call it WiFi+NextG for Australia... or is NextG only used for Telestra. BTW, NextG is also a marketing term which adds to the lunacy of this whole debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Where does it say it connects to 4G?! the only mention of 4G is in the device name "iPad with WiFi+4G". The iPad is definitely is capable of connecting to 4G networks and the hardware to do so exist in the device. At the bottom of the same page it says:

4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

What part of "SUPPORTED ONLY ON" is hard to understand?!

1) That looks like a secondary product name for that model as written.

2) That same sentence that mentions WiFi + 4G does say "around the world" and not "in Australia."

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post #67 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:46am
If only everyone used the same 4G network configurations .... Too bad that won't happen because then companies would be suing others for patent violations.

Why doesn't someone create a chip that can receive communications from all the different 4G frequencies?
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post #68 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:56am
I would contend that no body has never bought computer hardware or software, only to find when they got home or to work that it wasn't meant for or didn't work in their environment.

Like the political idiots we invariably elect to serve us, it is a shame that we can't sue them for incompetency because we were to stupid to read the fine print.

t would suggest to Apple they forget their plan to pay dividends and use the monies to start buying/contracting/building their own worldwide wireless network.
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post #69 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) That has its own problems because you excluded WiFi. Personally I think including WiFi is probably redundant. If you don't know if these devices have WiFI then you probably don't know if you have a WiFI router at home.

I dropped it for redundancy of the point, but ok fine, Wifi + 3G + US LTE.

Quote:
2) US's LTE tech isn't any different than the world's LTE. It's not the homegrown TD-LTE like China Mobile and Softbank are using. The only difference is the operating bands. They clearly state what bands it connects to... but then they go even farther and tell you what carriers and countries.

...ooookkkk but the device ONLY works on US LTE so calling it as such seems simple and appropriate for international purposes.
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post #70 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:57am
I'd love to know how many Aussies or Europeans bought the device thinking it was something it's not. My guess is not that many.
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post #71 of 160
3/28/12 at 8:58am
"4G", "in UK" ???!!!
Well... microapplesoft...
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post #72 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Are you kidding or just hard of seeing?

This lends well to my argument about fine print.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #73 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I'd love to know how many Aussies or Europeans bought the device thinking it was something it's not. My guess is not that many.

I'd love to know if Samsung or some other competitor hired people to go buy iPads specifically so they could target them with a law suite for false adverising....
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post #74 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:09am
What one forget is that the speed of the 4G LTE networks here in the US is about the same or slower than the 3G networks in for example Sweden. So yes, they will not be able to connect to their LTE networks, but the experience will be the same no matter where you are although you will not use the 4G network.
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post #75 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

I'd love to know if Samsung or some other competitor hired people to go buy iPads specifically so they could target them with a law suite for false adverising....

Law suite???

Is that several law suits tied together like Ofice or iWork?

j/k
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #76 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:10am
Much fuss about nothing.

We all take anything Apple says with a pinch of salt.
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post #77 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Huh? From the same link, 1st page:

Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.
Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world. So you can download content, stream video and browse the web at amazing speeds. Learn more
...

I did miss that mention of 4G on the first page, but that's because it's not in the header which says "Ultra Fast Wireless," not "4G."

There are better ways to explain things and other language Apple could have used, but they are still doing nothing here that every other company doesn't do and hasn't done since the beginning of commerce.

It's (a bit) deceptive but that's capitalism and advertising is at root based on deception and misdirection, so this is nothing new.
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post #78 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I did miss that mention of 4G on the first page, but that's because it's not in the header which says "Ultra Fast Wireless," not "4G."

There are better ways to explain things and other language Apple could have used, but they are still doing nothing here that every other company doesn't do and hasn't done since the beginning of commerce.

It's (a bit) deceptive but that's capitalism and advertising is at root based on deception and misdirection, so this is nothing new.

Nothing new. I agree.

Apple could have easily put another line below the description on the first page that says, "4G is currently available only in the United States and Canada. Discuss the fantastic speeds that you will still get with your wireless provider." ... or some such... rather than a little number 2 on the second page that leads you to some hieroglyphics (for most people) on the bottom of the page.

I'd like to see Apple move its standards a little higher than "every other company".
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #79 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Nothing new. I agree.

Apple could have easily put another line below the description on the first page that says, "4G is currently available only in the United States and Canada. Discuss the fantastic speeds that you will still get with your wireless provider." ... or some such... rather than a little number 2 on the second page that leads you to some hieroglyphics (for most people) on the bottom of the page.

I'd like to see Apple move its standards a little higher than "every other company".

But this is simply not true, 4G is a standard that is and has been available in other countries long before it was available in the US. The LTE standard was first implemented in Sweden where it actually works according to the standard. AT&T and Verizon is actually diverting from the standard.
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post #80 of 160
3/28/12 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The problem is they haven't been totally clear. Did you miss the comments from the Swedish poster on this page? Comments from a couple of Australian buyers? One from a German poster?

Are you now saying buyers shouldn't trust the big type on Apple's country-specific sales sites and instead look to see what Apple is hiding in the footnotes? Seems a bit sneaky to me and very un-Apple.

It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.

If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.

Very sad.
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