or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Nokia to refuse licensing SIM patents if ETSI chooses Apple design
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Nokia to refuse licensing SIM patents if ETSI chooses Apple design

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 
Finnish handset maker Nokia has said that it will elect not to license essential SIM-related patents to a new nano-SIM standard if the European Telecommunications Standards Institute chooses Apple's design over its own.

Both Nokia and Apple have been busy lobbying for their respective designs ahead of an ETSI vote on Thursday. Nokia fired off the latest salvo with a state threat not to participate if Apple wins the competition to set the design for the "fourth form factor (4FF) UICC," also dubbed "nano-SIM."

In a statement to The Verge, the handset maker said it had informed ETSI that, if Apple's proposal is selected, it will "not license its relevant patents to that standard."

As many as 50 patent families held by Nokia could be essential to the Apple's design.

Nokia did say that it's objections to Apple's proposal "have never been related to intellectual property." Instead, the company takes issue with Apple's nano-SIM design because it believes the specification does not meet ETSI's technical requirements.


Oberthur Technologies' nano-SIM prototype. | Source: The Verge


"As a result of the issues with the 4FF standardization work, Nokia is not willing to contribute its own IPR to the standard, if the Apple proposal is selected in violation of ETSI's rules," the statement read.

Nokia executive vice president and CTO Henry Tirri said, "We believe that Apple is mis-using the standardization process, seeking to impose its own proprietary solution on the industry and using ETSI merely to rubber stamp its proposal, rather than following established principles and practices.

"We urge ETSI members to resist this behaviour, which is not in the best interests of the industry or, more importantly, of consumers."

The company was, however, quick to disclaim that the decision not to support Apple's proposal "has no impact on Nokia's existing commitments to license its standard essential patents under FRAND terms to earlier adopted ETSI standards."

Earlier this week, it was revealed that Apple had pledged to offer royalty-free licensing of its nano-SIM design if the proposal was accepted and all other patent holders agreed to the same terms. Nokia responded by dismissing the pledge as "no more than an attempt to devalue" its competitors' intellectual property. The company said it was not aware of Apple holding any essential patents for its proposal.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 94
Is anyone reading this sufficiently "in-the-know" to post a reasonable primer on these nano-SIMS, the standardization process, the competing designs and what's really going on here? A link to an understandable article would do just as well.

Thanks in advance.
post #3 of 94
Nokia lost its relevance in 2001.
post #4 of 94
Quote:
Nokia did say that it's objections to Apple's proposal "have never been related to intellectual property."Instead, the company takes issue with Apple's nano-SIM design because it believes the specification does not meet ETSI's technical requirements.

Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #5 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfergenson View Post

Is anyone reading this sufficiently "in-the-know" to post a reasonable primer on these nano-SIMS, the standardization process, the competing designs and what's really going on here? A link to an understandable article would do just as well.

Thanks in advance.

Nokia just screwed Apple and it didn't hurt a bit.
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
post #6 of 94
So let's see. Apple submits their proposal royalty free. Other companies submit their proposals as well, royalty free and Nokia targets Apple only? Really what does Nokia see that is really a threat? This seems to be a means to try and discredit Apple's offer in order to get another design approved. Pretty lame strategy if you ask me. Just makes me not want to buy anything Nokia. Even if I wasn't buying an iPhone.
An Apple man since 1977
Reply
An Apple man since 1977
Reply
post #7 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Nokia fired off the latest salvo with a state threat not to participate if Apple wins .....


So there.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

Reply

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

Reply
post #8 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

So there.

Nokia were later quoted as saying they were going to hold their breath until someone told Apple to leave them alone.
My Android phone is the worst phone I've ever owned.
Reply
My Android phone is the worst phone I've ever owned.
Reply
post #9 of 94
Nokia,

Don't be lame.

Sincerely,
The World
post #10 of 94
That seems rather like extortion, doesn't it? It's a lot like the kid with the ball in the playground who says, "we play the game I want to play, or I take my ball and go home."

Another fine example for the "anti IP" crowd to point to as an illustration of how IP patents stymie progress and innovation. In this case, they might be right.
post #11 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post

Nokia,

Don't be lame.

Sincerely,
The World

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #12 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Nokia were later quoted as saying they were going to hold their breath until someone told Apple to leave them alone.

post #13 of 94
It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway. Just get rid of simcards and use a username/password instead.
post #14 of 94
[QUOTE=tribalogical;2083568]That seems rather like extortion, doesn't it? It's a lot like the kid with the ball in the playground who says, "we play the game I want to play, or I take my ball and go home."

Another fine example for the "anti IP" crowd to point to as an illustration of how IP patents stymie progress and innovation. In this case, they might be right.[/QUOTE

1- If you don't want to play a game with your ball, why should you? If it was the other way around, you'd be clamoring that Apple has a right to take its ball home. Be honest

2- "In this case, they might be right". In ANY case, they are right imho. It just happens to be that for once, it falls on Apple's nose.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #15 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

There are areas beyond Apple's control to open up Facebook. So no.

And Ebook? What's wrong with iBook. Not like they force out ALL other ebook apps.

P.S - Nano Sim wasn't even designed by Apple at all. Apple take the design from x company and add an Adopters, some small tweaks and changes.
post #16 of 94
I am not entirely sure what is going on, but here is what it seems like from the scant information and doing a lot of reading between the lines.

Nokia hold a shed load of patents essential for any SIM. They quite rightly want to garner income from those patents included in any new SIM design that incorporates them.

Apple doesn't want Nokia to have those royalties, so we have this piece of nonsense:

Quote:
Earlier this week, it was revealed that Apple had pledged to offer royalty-free licensing of its nano-SIM design if the proposal was accepted and all other patent holders agreed to the same terms.

So Apple's proposal would see Nokia denied royalties, on the one hand or on the other, Nokia would get it's royalties but so would Apple, meaning Apple would get to use the new SIM design essentially for free, because what it had to pay Nokia, Nokia and others would also have to pay Apple.

It is a brilliant con on Apples part. If Nokia is to be believed they have no real IP to offer, but if their design proposal is accepted, they either don't have to pay Nokia for their IP or they themselves get paid for stuff all.

A brilliant ruse if it pays off.
post #17 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"We believe that Apple is mis-using the standardization process, seeking to impose its own proprietary solution on the industry and using ETSI merely to rubber stamp its proposal, rather than following established principles and practices.

That executive Henry Tirri isn't the brightest of the bunch. He should understand Apple doesn't follow 'established principles and practices' but rather innovate, make things smaller, thinner, easier to use etcetera. Will Nokia go down as the 'European RiM'?
"Fibonacci: As easy as 1, 1, 2, 3..."
Reply
"Fibonacci: As easy as 1, 1, 2, 3..."
Reply
post #18 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

You talking about webkit?

So it is ok for the rest to screw Apple per se?

Yes take the ball and go home who cares.
post #19 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I am not entirely sure what is going on, but here is what it seems like from the scant information and doing a lot of reading between the lines.

Nokia hold a shed load of patents essential for any SIM. They quite rightly want to garner income from those patents included in any new SIM design that incorporates them.

Apple doesn't want Nokia to have those royalties, so we have this piece of nonsense:



So Apple's proposal would see Nokia denied royalties, on the one hand or on the other, Nokia would get it's royalties but so would Apple, meaning Apple would get to use the new SIM design essentially for free, because what it had to pay Nokia, Nokia and others would also have to pay Apple.

It is a brilliant con on Apples part. If Nokia is to be believed they have no real IP to offer, but if their design proposal is accepted, they either don't have to pay Nokia for their IP or they themselves get paid for stuff all.

A brilliant ruse if it pays off.

You kind of left me in the dark.

If Apple offering is royalty free so who did Apple get its dues from.

If Apple design is accepted I believe others have to pay for Nokia patents but Nokia like the spoilt kid decided not to play because it wants it's dues from royalties.

So who is with the ruse.
post #20 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

.. Nokia fired off the latest salvo with a state threat not to participate if Apple wins the competition...

So, Nokia speaks for Finland?

Taking my bat, ball and wickets (for those who know what those are) and am going home.
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
post #21 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

You kind of left me in the dark.

If Apple offering is royalty free so who did Apple get its dues from.

If Apple design is accepted I believe others have to pay for Nokia patents but Nokia like the spoilt kid decided not to play because it wants it's dues from royalties.

So who is with the ruse.

Apple is only eschewing royalties IF everyone else with relevant IP agrees to do the same.

Please explain why wanting royalties for your IP is acting like a spoiled kid?
post #22 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Your argument fails on facts (see responses by ksec and adamc) and also because you chose to finish with an insult. So, that's a double fail. Just sayin'.
post #23 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Apple did not enforce anything in eBooks. The "ePub" format existed before apple came out with iBooks, and it was selected by the publishers as the format of choice. Apple just implemented it on their devices.
post #24 of 94
"Apple's proprietary solution" - indeed. Nokia should know that Apples idea is pin compatible with both SIM and MicroSIM. So simple physical adapters are all it takes to convert a nanoSIM to Micro or regular SIM.

The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.

This is a master stroke by Apple. They have nothing to lose - worst case status quo as far as patent royalties are concerned. But Nokia just damaged its credibility as a responsible player in the global standards arena. Threatening to stop licensing IP if your solution is not picked is nothing but arm twisting.

I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.
post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway.

If low bitrate and overcompressed stereo sound is your thing. that future is already here.
post #26 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Nokia lost its relevance in 2001.

No, Nokia lost its relevance in 2010 when they hired Elop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

There are areas beyond Apple's control to open up Facebook. So no...

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena View Post

...

The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.

...

This may very well be the case. Ideally, Apple would propose a standard that doesn't violate ETSI's tech specs, and then Nokia will not have this excuse to object to Apple's standard. Simple.
post #27 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena View Post

I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.

Unfortunately, this type of action rarely ever happens. It would serve Nokia right after making such a threat, but they probably have the leverage to actually tip the scales in their favor.
post #28 of 94
Desperate measures by a desperate company. After their sales figures are released their stock will drop, Apple should buy them for 15 bil or so and sell them off piece by piece while keeping anything of value.
post #29 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.


Oh hardly, Apple are saints by comparison to most companies.
post #30 of 94
Nokia will win this battle. Organisations like ETSI are filled with their friends. It's an old boys club.
post #31 of 94
Nokia is RIMing away. Nokia has an operating loss of over one billion euros in 2011. They are still a large multinational valued at 25 billion euros but the competitive pressure from Apple is clearly shrinking their market share. Nokia can see the writing on the wall and must fundamentally change if they want to remain in business, like Apple did a decade ago.

It's the same story, companies that can't compete try to stop the advance of innovation from steamrolling over them by throwing in a wrench in the gears of technical progress. Even Microsoft has realized (albeit too late) that they must innovate in order to survive, so how can Nokia possibly survive by using MS's old tactics?

It's sad when any company goes out of business but Apple wouldn't be here today if it had not been on the verge of bankruptcy a decade ago. Only companies that can step up to the plate and innovate can compete with Apple and thrive. Nokia is, unfortunately, not one of them.
post #32 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Apple is only eschewing royalties IF everyone else with relevant IP agrees to do the same.

Please explain why wanting royalties for your IP is acting like a spoiled kid?

You're right. It's only evil when Apple wants to be paid for their IP, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena View Post

"Apple's proprietary solution" - indeed. Nokia should know that Apples idea is pin compatible with both SIM and MicroSIM. So simple physical adapters are all it takes to convert a nanoSIM to Micro or regular SIM.

The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.

This is a master stroke by Apple. They have nothing to lose - worst case status quo as far as patent royalties are concerned. But Nokia just damaged its credibility as a responsible player in the global standards arena. Threatening to stop licensing IP if your solution is not picked is nothing but arm twisting.

I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.

The bolded part is important. Apple is offering a solution which minimizes the difficulty of the transition for everyone. Nokia's solution is proprietary.

In the end, though, this may be what it takes to force the carriers to get rid of SIMs. That would be a good thing in the end.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #33 of 94
This isn't a topic I know much about so I ask this ... is there a point at which Apple simply develop their own anyway and and offer the use of the design and IP royalty free to anyone else that wishes to use their design? There would be incompatibility out there I realize but only for those that didn't use the new design such as Nokia.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
Reply
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
Reply
post #34 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I am not entirely sure what is going on, but here is what it seems like from the scant information and doing a lot of reading between the lines.

Nokia hold a shed load of patents essential for any SIM. They quite rightly want to garner income from those patents included in any new SIM design that incorporates them.

Apple doesn't want Nokia to have those royalties, so we have this piece of nonsense:



So Apple's proposal would see Nokia denied royalties, on the one hand or on the other, Nokia would get it's royalties but so would Apple, meaning Apple would get to use the new SIM design essentially for free, because what it had to pay Nokia, Nokia and others would also have to pay Apple.

It is a brilliant con on Apples part. If Nokia is to be believed they have no real IP to offer, but if their design proposal is accepted, they either don't have to pay Nokia for their IP or they themselves get paid for stuff all.

A brilliant ruse if it pays off.

You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
post #35 of 94
In the last discussion, I was beginning to think Nokia probably had some worthy points, but this is starting to get tenuous at best. Is there a link to better information about what is proprietary in Apple's nano SIM?

Nokia's and RIM's submissions appear to be more proprietary and might not offer any backward compatibility at all, the physical pinout changes drastically. To fix the alleged problem with Apple's submission, I think Apple only needs to change a single offending physical dimension either way, to 12mm or 13mm to reduce the possibility of jamming - a change that I don't think will have an impact on the underlying electronics or signalling.
post #36 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".


Apple's suggested nano SIM is pin-for-pin backward compatible with the existing standard. Nokia's is not to the slightest degree. Why are you siding against Apple in this case? Why do you want Nokia to screw with the standard?
post #37 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.

""We believe that Apple is mis-using the standardization process, seeking to impose its own proprietary solution on the industry and using ETSI merely to rubber stamp its proposal, rather than following established principles and practices."

Hmmm, wouldn't be proprietary if it's made a standard either.
post #38 of 94
"If you choose that guy, you can't use my ball. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaa"

TechnoMinds

We are a Montreal based technology company that offers a variety of tech services such as tech support for Apple products, Drupal based website development, computer training and iCloud...

Reply

TechnoMinds

We are a Montreal based technology company that offers a variety of tech services such as tech support for Apple products, Drupal based website development, computer training and iCloud...

Reply
post #39 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

... To fix the alleged problem with Apple's submission, I think Apple only needs to change a single offending physical dimension either way, to 12mm or 13mm to reduce the possibility of jamming - a change that I don't think will have an impact on the underlying electronics or signalling.

Exactly. If Apple does that, Nokia's motifs will become obvious. Right now, they aren't, and Nokia is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
post #40 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Care to back up your rant with some facts? What standards body did Apple participate in and then knife in the back? Microsofts track record on this is very clear. Ever hear of ISO and the MSOOXML debacle?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Nokia to refuse licensing SIM patents if ETSI chooses Apple design