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Nokia to refuse licensing SIM patents if ETSI chooses Apple design - Page 2

post #41 of 94
3/29/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radjin View Post

You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.

No, Apple is trying to get a free lunch out of this. What Nokia is saying is that Apple has no essential IP outside of their own design whereas Nokia has essential IP regardless of what design is chosen. So Nokia would end up losing income and Apple gets something for free. Thus, Nokia's valid complaint about Apple attempting to devalue other's IP.
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post #42 of 94
3/29/12 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radjin View Post

You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.

No, you miss the point. The whole exercise is a scam by Apple to get out of having to pay royalties to Nokia.

Apple only agreed to eschew royalties IF everyone else agreed to do the same, which principally means Nokia.

Apple are trying it on. They have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Whether Nokia is in decline or not is irrelevant to the principle that they should be entitled to receive royalties for their IP if it is used.
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post #43 of 94
3/29/12 at 5:40am
It is an attempted stroke by Apple - Nokia are entitled to be paid for their IP like anyone else - Apple want a free lunch by asking everyone to licence their IP for free, when they have absolutely nothing to bring to the party - a party they have contributed nothing to in the past either I might add. Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today, Nokia in particular with 3G technology. Why should Apple be allowed to just come along and soak up the benefits? Should anyone? No.


Get the facts in line here folks, Nokia has a point here.
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post #44 of 94
3/29/12 at 5:46am
From Wikipeia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-SIM
SIM card sizes
SIM card\tStandard reference\t Length (mm) N Width (mm) Thickness (mm)
Full-size\tISO/IEC 7810:2003, ID-1\t 85.60\t 53.98\t 0.76
Mini-SIM\tISO/IEC 7810:2003, ID-000\t 25.00\t 15.00\t 0.76
Micro-SIM\tETSI TS 102 221 V9.0.0, Mini-UICC\t 15.00\t 12.00\t 0.76
Nano-SIM\tETSI TS 102 221 V9.0.0, Mini-UICC\t 12.00\t 9.00\t 0.76
Embedded-SIM\tJEDEC Design Guide 4.8 , SON-8\t 6.00\t 5.00\t <1.0

Hey Mr Nokia you are no longer king pin in this arena so be a goodie and stay quiet!
iMac i7
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post #45 of 94
3/29/12 at 5:49am
I won't pretend to understand all the legal and technology stuff behind the battle here but even if Apple is trying to present a sub standard plan (and I doubt that very highly), Nokia sounds really bad with their response to this.
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post #46 of 94
3/29/12 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway. Just get rid of simcards and use a username/password instead.

I am not sure I want to go back to the way things worked with CDMA. The SIM card is still the better compromise, IMHO. If you do a lot if travelling you will realise the benefits of simply being able to switch out the SIM card and go with whatever local operator there is.
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post #47 of 94
3/29/12 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Exactly. If Apple does that, Nokia's motifs will become obvious. Right now, they aren't, and Nokia is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission. A submission to standard is subject to changes before being accepted, it looks like a trivial change.

For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.
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post #48 of 94
3/29/12 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission.

I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.

I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.
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post #49 of 94
3/29/12 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.

I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I'm saying that degree of benefit doubt is getting tenuous at best. Nokia's really going to completely back out because of 0.3mm because it has users' interests at heart? That's a big stretch. Going nuclear over a procedural matter? I've seen this before, it's called politics. That claim has all the markings of a red herring.

The IP claims have more weight, but polluting a good argument with a marginal one, to me, as well as not having a pin-compatible design, causes me to question their whole position.
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post #50 of 94
3/29/12 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radjin View Post

You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.

Apple's innovation: use thinner plastic backing for the same chip, and cut away more of said plastic. Use same chip.

Not that valuable of an IP position in my book.
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post #51 of 94
3/29/12 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today

the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.

If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.
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post #52 of 94
3/29/12 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Your argument is weak, Apple supports other eBook formats other than it's own. As for Facetime, do you really think any of the major players would be interested in using Apple's standard over there own? Facetime is already available on all major devices except Windows and Microsoft owns Skype...
On the other hand, would Apple have any benefit to paying to use Skype's standards?
I don't think Apple reneged on opening Facetime, I think rather than no one is interested.
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post #53 of 94
3/29/12 at 7:45am
This is the equivalent of (take your pick): the whiny kid taking his ball and going home because he could not control the game or Lucy telling Charlie Brown to kick the football and then pulling it back as he tries to kick the ball.

I suspect that Nokia's actions will come under review for being anti-competitive. They had better be right about their technical objections because FRAND agreements don't provide for licensing to everyone but those you don't like. They are FRAND because the company agreed to release the patents to all under fair, non-discriminatory terms: i.e., to everyone that can pay a fair fee, no matter the use.
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post #54 of 94
3/29/12 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Eh, what garbage are you blethering? Apple created a tool to make textbooks for the iPad only, not for any other manufacturers platform. They have added in features which are not available anywhere else anyway, so whats your beef???
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post #55 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.

So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".

Screwed the web? By introducing a free tool you can use to create iBooks? iBooks. Not generic ebooks. Use other tools if you want portability.
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post #56 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You're right. It's only evil when Apple wants to be paid for their IP, right?



The bolded part is important. Apple is offering a solution which minimizes the difficulty of the transition for everyone. Nokia's solution is proprietary.

In the end, though, this may be what it takes to force the carriers to get rid of SIMs. That would be a good thing in the end.

Everyone's solution is proprietary until it gets accepted by ETSI!
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post #57 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.

If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.



The SIM is still the most standard approach that we have, and in 99% of devices that are not Apple. I can take a SIM out my (unlocked) phone and put it in a Nokia Booklet/most any 3G SIM enabled device and use my data plan, or a USB modem in a MacBook Air and use my data plan, Sony VAIO, etc etc all using the same SIM. I still have unlimited DATA from O2, why should I have to change that?

You're talking about your experience with (I assume) iPhone/iPad and US carriers. There isn't a more restrictive pairing out there mate, but it doesn't apply to everyone else. That's the gist of this argument.
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post #58 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.

The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.
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post #59 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.

I was thinking the same thing. They are saying they won't play ball because they think that Apple's design doesn't fit the rules. But if it is adopted then isn't that the standards group, which made the rules, saying that it does.
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post #60 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?

So who tried to adopt FaceTime and was told by Apple they couldn't.

No one. So perhaps we haven't seen FaceTime outside of Apple because no one has shown an interest. Just like how some games would rather build their own connection network than use Game Center.
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post #61 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.

And where is that slot. Because if it is in the phone, under the battery, where cell phones often have their SIM how is that any less cumbersome than Apple's tray that opens up with a metal pin and doesn't require you opening the phone back.
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post #62 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post


If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.

not at all. the ICCID is registered into a pay as you go system for the iPad unlike the iPhone where it is a contract system. the shape and mechanics of the sim don't change that.
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post #63 of 94
3/29/12 at 8:59am
So yet again we see patents being used to hinder innovation.
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post #64 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Earlier this week, it was revealed that Apple had pledged[/URL] to offer royalty-free licensing of its nano-SIM design if the proposal was accepted and all other patent holders agreed to the same terms.

I think that is a pretty ingenious move by apple to force Nokia to license it's 50 patent families essential to the SIM technology for free. Just from the age of the SIM technology I assume that Apple holds no patents in that technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

As many as 50 patent families held by Nokia could be essential to the Apple's design.

By building on that technology and offering it to ETSI under the mentioned terms they can further on use the technology for free (as long as ETSI chooses Apple's design).
Even if Apple doesn't succeed with it's move the licenses for the SIM technology will cost Apple the same as it does now, but Apple has put a pretty bad sting into Nokia's flesh.
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post #65 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:10am
Sounds like they're mainly frustrated by the idea of someone licensing for free what they'd like to license for $$. Nothing wrong with getting revenue for your hard work, but you've got to walk a very fine line in what you actually complain about. It seems to me that Nokia's complaints have an odd ring to them.
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post #66 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:25am
Fortunately Nokia's power and relevance is not what it once was.

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post #67 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

And where is that slot. Because if it is in the phone, under the battery, where cell phones often have their SIM how is that any less cumbersome than Apple's tray that opens up with a metal pin and doesn't require you opening the phone back.

Good point.

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post #68 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Nokia lost its relevance in 2001.

Seemingly not. Without Nokia, Apple's format is worthless.

The real story here is that Apple wants to contribute something of little worth, a format, while forcing other companies to forego royalties on technology of great worth.

They are shameless.
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post #69 of 94
3/29/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

So let's see. Apple submits their proposal royalty free. Other companies submit their proposals as well, royalty free and Nokia targets Apple only? Really what does Nokia see that is really a threat? This seems to be a means to try and discredit Apple's offer in order to get another design approved. Pretty lame strategy if you ask me. Just makes me not want to buy anything Nokia. Even if I wasn't buying an iPhone.

Everybody always picks on the underdog, Apple. It is not fair.
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post #70 of 94
3/29/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Apple's suggested nano SIM is pin-for-pin backward compatible with the existing standard. Nokia's is not to the slightest degree. Why are you siding against Apple in this case? Why do you want Nokia to screw with the standard?

Because that is all beside the point.

The point is that Apple wants to give away something of little value for free, in exchange for things of great value that would need to be given away for free.

Nokia should rightly tell Apple "Thanks, but no thanks."
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post #71 of 94
3/29/12 at 10:36am
This is how Nokia is sounding to me.

"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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post #72 of 94
3/29/12 at 10:38am
Anybody know how to say "sour grapes" in Finnish?

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post #73 of 94
3/29/12 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission. A submission to standard is subject to changes before being accepted, it looks like a trivial change.

For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.

But is that Nokia's main objection? From what I read Apple's proposal is free if all associated patents for the SIM are also made free. If that is correct then Apple ends up saving money and Nokia ends up losing money. Now ETSI could say we'll go with Apple's design if only they drop their cross licensing requirement, otherwise they'll go with Nokia or RiM, and Apple might decide to go that route. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

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post #74 of 94
3/29/12 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

Fortunately Nokia's power and relevance is not what it once was.

Nokia was once a huge conglomerate, making everything from rubber galoshes to smart phones to car tires to paper products to chemicals. They divested themselves of all non-telecommunications businesses in the 1990s.

Oops. Maybe they should have kept their Nokian Footwear business. They were a world leader in rubber boots.

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post #75 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Because that is all beside the point.

The point is that Apple wants to give away something of little value for free, in exchange for things of great value that would need to be given away for free.

Nokia should rightly tell Apple "Thanks, but no thanks."

And they have the right to do that.

If Apple's design is chosen as the standard, Nokia would have to negotiate a license fee (both ways). No different than if Apple hadn't made their "ours is free if you make yours free" proposal.

Nokia loses nothing here - except that they look like bad guys, but that's too flipping bad.
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post #76 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:43am
  • hmm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

So let's see. Apple submits their proposal royalty free. Other companies submit their proposals as well, royalty free and Nokia targets Apple only? Really what does Nokia see that is really a threat? This seems to be a means to try and discredit Apple's offer in order to get another design approved. Pretty lame strategy if you ask me. Just makes me not want to buy anything Nokia. Even if I wasn't buying an iPhone.

It's not actually royalty free. It's leveraged, meaning it does actually cost them. The leverage is the shape of a piece of plastic offered free against everything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

That seems rather like extortion, doesn't it? It's a lot like the kid with the ball in the playground who says, "we play the game I want to play, or I take my ball and go home."

Another fine example for the "anti IP" crowd to point to as an illustration of how IP patents stymie progress and innovation. In this case, they might be right.

Again I'm wondering if this design solves real problems or if Apple is just trying to increase their margins by reducing their licensing costs by offering something with relatively flat benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

It is an attempted stroke by Apple - Nokia are entitled to be paid for their IP like anyone else - Apple want a free lunch by asking everyone to licence their IP for free, when they have absolutely nothing to bring to the party - a party they have contributed nothing to in the past either I might add. Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today, Nokia in particular with 3G technology. Why should Apple be allowed to just come along and soak up the benefits? Should anyone? No.



Get the facts in line here folks, Nokia has a point here.

You might like this. It's not one of my favorite sites. It just mentions how Apple can gain voting power there. They have more money, so they can force things if necessary, which in itself isn't really a good thing. Welcome to the new Microsoft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

But is that Nokia's main objection? From what I read Apple's proposal is free if all associated patents for the SIM are also made free. If that is correct then Apple ends up saving money and Nokia ends up losing money. Now ETSI could say we'll go with Apple's design if only they drop their cross licensing requirement, otherwise they'll go with Nokia or RiM, and Apple might decide to go that route. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

Well Apple is trying to suggest that changing the shape of a piece of plastic is equal in value to the combination rest of these by the terms offered.
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post #77 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Nokia lost its relevance in 2001.

Rubbish, nokia has gotten hit 4 Yeats in a row since 2008 and smartphone surge.

Nokia owns the best voice patents, even iPhone 4s doesn't come close to the quality of voice from a Nokia phone. I ve had plenty of Nokia and iPhones and it's as self evident.

Nokia also unlike apple doesn't have a dozen antennae engineers but tens of them, that's why the have so far not produced a phone that would short circuit itself to low signal.

Nokia to the phone industry is zerox park to computers, credit where credit is due.

In terms of the sim issue I think Nokia are justified here, it's their patented work. If apple want to push forward a new sim design they should cough it up and pay for Nokia patents.
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post #78 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Well Apple is trying to suggest that changing the shape of a piece of plastic is equal in value to the combination rest of these by the terms offered.

That doesn't seem very fair to me. I'm not seeing any non-obvious innovation with removing more plastic but maintaining the same contact plate design.

"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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post #79 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Nokia also unlike apple doesn't have a dozen antennae engineers but tens of them, that's why the have so far not produced a phone that would short circuit itself to low signal.

What a fucking stupid comment.

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post #80 of 94
3/29/12 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

This is how Nokia is sounding to me.

LOL

Maybe that Henri Tirri guy...



...went like this (rough day at the office):

The article from that picture of him is interesting (Nokia site)
I wish Google was drowning, so I could describe the water for them.
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