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Google plans to launch online store for Android tablets

post #1 of 54
Thread Starter 
In an attempt to boost disappointing sales of tablets using its Android OS, Google is reportedly planning to rollout an online storefront by the end of 2012, with some of the devices expected to be co-branded.

Citing sources familiar with the matter, The Wall Street Journal reports that the internet search giant's plans are similar to the short-lived online sales model of the company's 2010 Nexus One handset only on a wider scale similar to the online Apple Store.

Although some of the tablets to be sold in the new store will be Google branded or co-branded, the company is not expected to be part of the manufacturing process. Partner OEMs like Samsung and ASUS will reportedly handle the hardware side of the operation while Google will provide design and software support. Earlier this month, rumors had it that Google and Asus were already planning on releasing a co-branded tablet in May.

The business model is identical to how Google operated with the Nexus One, which was built by Chinese smartphone maker HTC.

It is not known when the store will officially make its debut, and the sources are unclear as to which Android tablet makers will be taking part in the endeavor.

It was recently reported that Google nets 80 percent of its mobile revenue from iOS and only 20 percent from Android.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 54
Google should consider opening their own brick 'n mortar stores or co-branded ones with Best Buy.
post #3 of 54
Another online store. Yeah. This will make all the difference.

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post #4 of 54
I believe the purchase of Motorola and all this co-branding (which is essentially annointing "winners") will have a very negative in the long-term growth proposition for Android. If I am a ODM, I'd be looking at Windows as a more neutral playing field, especially considering that Android handset makers are already paying royalties to MS.

Bob
post #5 of 54
Oh wow, how original! Google are going to open an online shop because no one else has obviously....

Can I get a job at Google because if this is the level of thinking at Mountain View, my shoe is more than qualified?
post #6 of 54
People are not going to buy an unproven, untested, BUGGY, CRAPPY, POS Android Tablet online specially if they haven't physically seen/touched/tested it inside a physical store.

GOODLUCK GOOGLE! ANOTHER DISASTER COMING UP!

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post #7 of 54
As i recall the problem with direct sales of the Nexus was that Google is not, and apparently has little interest in becoming, a customer service oriented operation. If you buy "Google hardware" and have issues, you can forget about talking to Google. They're not home, not for you.

"Co-branding" just sounds like a way to get some Google on there without Google having to deal with those tiresome consumers. Leave that to the sweet embrace of Samsung.
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post #8 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

In an attempt to boost disappointing sales of tablets using its Android OS, Google is reportedly planning to rollout an online storefront by the end of 2012, with some of the devices expected to be co-branded.

Citing sources familiar with the matter, The Wall Street Journal reports that the internet search giant's plans are similar to the short-lived online sales model of the company's 2010 Nexus One handset only on a wider scale similar to the online Apple Store.

Although some of the tablets to be sold in the new store will be Google branded or co-branded, the company is not expected to be part of the manufacturing process. Partner OEMs like Samsung and ASUS will reportedly handle the hardware side of the operation while Google will provide design and software support. Earlier this month, rumors had it that Google and Asus were already planning on releasing a co-branded tablet in May.

The business model is identical to how Google operated with the Nexus One, which was built by Chinese smartphone maker HTC.

It is not known when the store will officially make its debut, and the sources are unclear as to which Android tablet makers will be taking part in the endeavor.

It was recently reported that Google nets 80 percent of its mobile revenue from iOS and only 20 percent from Android.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]

If at first you don't succeed, fail, fail again
For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #9 of 54
Like maybe 6 or 7 people really give a flying fk! BTW, HTC is a Taiwanese company, not Chinese.
post #10 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

If you buy "Google hardware" and have issues, you can forget about talking to Google. They're not home, not for you.

Unfortunately, too true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

If at first you don't succeed, fail, fail again

(too funny for just one smiley!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Oh wow, how original! Google are going to open an online shop because no one else has obviously....

Can I get a job at Google because if this is the level of thinking at Mountain View, my shoe is more than qualified?

If you've ever wondered why they have such large windows at their Mountain view headquarters, it's so they can look out towards Cupertino and the world and see what the hell is actually going on.
I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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post #11 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

If at first you don't succeed, fail, fail again

I'm constantly surprised at how much top level time and talent is being spent at Google on this free-OS boondoggle while their money making search engine profit is being eroded away. At what time will the stock holders throw a fit and drive some of the board members and management out of their seats?
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #12 of 54
Here is how the meeting for that one went:

"Hey! I have an idea! Perhaps the quality of our tablets is not the reason for poor sales after all. It is because nobody can find them! Let's build an online store and sales will boom!"

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post #13 of 54
Wow, this is absolutely incredible news for somebody such as myself who happens to be a huge fan of Android, and don't you go doubting me for a single second, because I can out root you any day of the week and I am a regular pro with the widgets. I can multitask and handle 5 widgets at once, so don't go starting some shit with me, because you'll certainly regret it. I'd been desperately trying to buy an Android tablet for many months now, and they've been sold out everywhere! A poor guy just can't catch a break.

After each Android tablet launch, there are always huge lines of people, all across the world, waiting for days and days just to get their hands on the latest Android tablet. It's not surprising to me that Google needs to open up an online store. This will help with the distribution problems that Android has been having, caused by the insane demand for their tablets.

The only problem is that I currently live in a cardboard box (three actually), and I'm hoping that Google's online store will be able to send the tablet to my current address.
post #14 of 54
Maybe Google plans to promote/monetize the effort with ads like this:


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post #15 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Wow, this is absolutely incredible news for somebody such as myself who happens to be a huge fan of Android, and don't you go doubting me for a single second, because I can out root you any day of the week and I am a regular pro with the widgets. I can multitask and handle 5 widgets at once, so don't go starting some shit with me, because you'll certainly regret it. I'd been desperately trying to buy an Android tablet for many months now, and they've been sold out everywhere! A poor guy just can't catch a break.

After each Android tablet launch, there are always huge lines of people, all across the world, waiting for days and days just to get their hands on the latest Android tablet. It's not surprising to me that Google needs to open up an online store. This will help with the distribution problems that Android has been having, caused by the insane demand for their tablets.

The only problem is that I currently live in a cardboard box (three actually), and I'm hoping that Google's online store will be able to send the tablet to my current address.

Dude, you keep this shit up and you're going to have to start your own site/blog.
I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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post #16 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

People are not going to buy an unproven, untested, BUGGY, CRAPPY, POS Android Tablet online specially if they haven't physically seen/touched/tested it inside a physical store.

GOODLUCK GOOGLE! ANOTHER DISASTER COMING UP!

Why do people buy all kinds of things online without ever seen them. They read up about them and then make an educated guess. Not all of us have the luxury of having a Apple store near by or even a store that sells Android tablets. Now that bit about unproven, untested, buggy, blah, blah, it's a very silly remark. It's one think to own a specific model and having a problem with it but generalizing that they are all crap is just retarded. I have friends along with myself who own Android tablets and they are very wonderful machines.

Apple doesn't make a small tablet that I can fit in my purse but Samsung does with their 7.7". One of the most fantastic tablets I have ever used and the critics feel the same, all of them even the hardcore Apple ones. This is an Apple fan site yes and I own pretty much every line of Apple products except the Mac Pro. However there are also some really incredible non Apple products on the market as well. I'm so tired of people blindly passing judgement on things they either don't own or no nothing about, they post negative thoughts because it makes them look cool on the board.

The worst thing is when we attack each other because we like certain things about another product that doesn't have a Apple on it. Who cares, if you think that the product you bought can make your life just a little bit more enjoyable then the brand name that is printed on the back doesn't matter. Can we all start rejoicing over technology in general, I am still in such awe that we live in a age where we can even talk to each other over great distances with a device no bigger then a box of cigarettes, let alone share data on the same device.
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post #17 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Wow, this is absolutely incredible news for somebody such as myself who happens to be a huge fan of Android, and don't you go doubting me for a single second, because I can out root you any day of the week and I am a regular pro with the widgets. I can multitask and handle 5 widgets at once, so don't go starting some shit with me, because you'll certainly regret it. I'd been desperately trying to buy an Android tablet for many months now, and they've been sold out everywhere! A poor guy just can't catch a break.

After each Android tablet launch, there are always huge lines of people, all across the world, waiting for days and days just to get their hands on the latest Android tablet. It's not surprising to me that Google needs to open up an online store. This will help with the distribution problems that Android has been having, caused by the insane demand for their tablets.

The only problem is that I currently live in a cardboard box (three actually), and I'm hoping that Google's online store will be able to send the tablet to my current address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Dude, you keep this shit up and you're going to have to start your own site/blog.

Apple ][ Insider.com.
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post #18 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Why do people buy all kinds of things online without ever seen them. They read up about them and then make an educated guess. Not Ball of us have the luxury of having a Apple store near by or even a store that sells Android tablets. Now that bit about unproven, untested, buggy, blah, blah, it's a very silly remark. It's one think to own a specific model and having a problem with it but generalizing that they are all crap is just retarded. I have friends along with myself who own Android tablets and they are very wonderful machines.

Apple doesn't make a small tablet that I can fit in my purse but Samsung does with their 7.7". One of the most fantastic tablets I have ever used and the critics feel the same, all of them even the hardcore Apple ones. This is an Apple fan site yes and I own pretty much every line of Apple products except the Mac Pro. However there are also some really incredible non Apple products on the market as well. I'm so tired of people blindly passing judgement on things they either don't own or no nothing about, they post negative thoughts because it makes them look cool on the board.

The worst thing is when we attack each other because we like certain things about another product that doesn't have a Apple on it. Who cares, if you think that the product you bought can make your life just a little bit more enjoyable then the brand name that is printed on the back doesn't matter. Can we all start rejoicing over technology in general, I am still in such awe that we live in a age where we can even talk to each other over great distances with a device no bigger then a box of cigarettes, let alone share data on the same device.

The fallacy of your post is that you confuse a "machine" with a solution.
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post #19 of 54
I'm sure they're doing this so potential buyers won't have the chance to experience the horrid user experience on the vast majority of them. They'll push them based on specs, and the nonexistent tablet app market.
post #20 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The fallacy of your post is that you confuse a "machine" with a solution.

No solutions just reasons to have fun and enjoy the technology that an individual chooses. You don't have to make it about anything else. There is no superior choice, it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Stop trying to make something that it isn't.
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post #21 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedGeminiPA View Post

I'm sure they're doing this so potential buyers won't have the chance to experience the horrid user experience on the vast majority of them. They'll push them based on specs, and the nonexistent tablet app market.

Another silly post that doesn't add anything to the conversation but negativity.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #22 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

As i recall the problem with direct sales of the Nexus was that Google is not, and apparently has little interest in becoming, a customer service oriented operation. If you buy "Google hardware" and have issues, you can forget about talking to Google. They're not home, not for you.

Ding, ding, ding! The company who is allergic to offering customer service, and has already failed in one retail venture because of zero customer service, is bellying up to the bar for another shot.

A company started by geeks, who pride themselves in hiring geeks, is now (Again!) going to try to sell directly to the final customer. Don't they realize that this means they actually, gulp, have to speak and converse with real people if they want to succeed in this? Well maybe Google has managed to hire all the geeks who are NOT socially inept.

Seriously, the Googlefolk are no doubt very smart people, but customer service, the kind you need to offer if you want the technical ignorati to be your customer, is not in this company's DNA. Even if they hire the best customer service manager in the world, they are not going to listen to him or her.
post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

Ding, ding, ding! The company who is allergic to offering customer service, and has already failed in one retail venture because of zero customer service, is bellying up to the bar for another shot.

A company started by geeks, who pride themselves in hiring geeks, is now (Again!) going to try to sell directly to the final customer. Don't they realize that this means they actually, gulp, have to speak and converse with real people if they want to succeed in this? Well maybe Google has managed to hire all the geeks who are NOT socially inept.

Seriously, the Googlefolk are no doubt very smart people, but customer service, the kind you need to offer if you want the technical ignorati to be your customer, is not in this company's DNA. Even if they hire the best customer service manager in the world, they are not going to listen to him or her.

Google is a multi billion dollar company you don't think they can hire a customer service staff with a competent manager that are willing to talk with customers. That's the stupidest thing I've read so far on this forum. Yes the Google staff is mostly made up of geeks but what tech company isn't. Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.
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post #24 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Google is a multi billion dollar company you don't think they can hire a customer service staff with a competent manager that are willing to talk with customers. That's the stupidest thing I've read so far on this forum. Yes the Google staff is mostly made up of geeks but what tech company isn't. Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.



It's ironic that you can't see this.

Apple DOES appear to be the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

See their income and share price for more information.
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post #25 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post



It's ironic that you can't see this.

Apple DOES appear to be the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

See their income and share price for more information.

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post #26 of 54
Co-branding? Because it worked sooo well for Google to lend their name to Google Wave and Google+.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

BTW, HTC is a Taiwanese company, not Chinese.

Well, Taiwan is just the name of the island. The country name is Republic of China (ROC).
And they speak Chinese Mandarin.

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post #28 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Co-branding? Because it worked sooo well for Google to lend their name to Google Wave and Google+.

I'm waiting for Google to buy Kodak and launch KodaChrome ...
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post #29 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

People are not going to buy an unproven, untested, BUGGY, CRAPPY, POS Android Tablet online specially if they haven't physically seen/touched/tested it inside a physical store.

Plenty of people bought a Kindle Fire online without trying it out first.
post #30 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Plenty of people bought a Kindle Fire online without trying it out first.

And they're returning it because it's a POS device.

Kindle Fire return rate: 15% to 25%

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4379...e-fire-returns


Early buyers of Amazon's tablet-like e-reader, the Kindle Fire, are beginning to find what many had feared: it's not really a tablet computer at all.

These early adopters are running into an experience that is often clunky, a touchscreen that isn't super responsive, a Web browser that struggles on many websites and head-scratching hardware omissions. (There are no volume buttons.)

For Amazon, it's the product of impossibly high hopes for the device. When Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos unveiled the Fire earlier this fall, the expectation was that it would be able to fully compete with the Apple iPad 2.
The Fire was supposed to finally buoy an Android tablet ecosystem that has languished under expensive, clunky hardware from manufacturers like Motorola.

It has not done that.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/st...nts/51839620/1

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post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Wow, this is absolutely incredible news for somebody such as myself who happens to be a huge fan of Android, and don't you go doubting me for a single second, because I can out root you any day of the week and I am a regular pro with the widgets. I can multitask and handle 5 widgets at once, so don't go starting some shit with me, because you'll certainly regret it. I'd been desperately trying to buy an Android tablet for many months now, and they've been sold out everywhere! A poor guy just can't catch a break.

After each Android tablet launch, there are always huge lines of people, all across the world, waiting for days and days just to get their hands on the latest Android tablet. It's not surprising to me that Google needs to open up an online store. This will help with the distribution problems that Android has been having, caused by the insane demand for their tablets.

The only problem is that I currently live in a cardboard box (three actually), and I'm hoping that Google's online store will be able to send the tablet to my current address.

/s
post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Google is a multi billion dollar company you don't think they can hire a customer service staff with a competent manager that are willing to talk with customers. That's the stupidest thing I've read so far on this forum. Yes the Google staff is mostly made up of geeks but what tech company isn't. Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

Good customer service is first and foremost an attitude that has to start from the very top. As I said, Google can hire the best customer service manager but I tell you, they won't listen to him or her. Meaning, they won't put enough value to what he or she says to actually put the company behind a world-class customer service operation. Why? Because they're bright people and they think they know everything. And every indication points to the conclusion that they consider customer service to be an afterthought, not integral to their product. Look at all their products: Youtube, Buzz, Wave, Gmail, etc. What attitude do all those products convey? It's "Here's the stuff, it's great, we promise. Figure it out yourself. If you get stuck don't call us, search the web."

And yes, Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products. And that's not just me talking. It's the hundreds of millions of customers who have put their money where their mouths are and have made Apple the most profitable, most valuable company in the world. If that's not going to convince you, then I don't know what will.
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Why do people buy all kinds of things online without ever seen them. They read up about them and then make an educated guess. Not all of us have the luxury of having a Apple store near by or even a store that sells Android tablets. Now that bit about unproven, untested, buggy, blah, blah, it's a very silly remark. It's one think to own a specific model and having a problem with it but generalizing that they are all crap is just retarded. I have friends along with myself who own Android tablets and they are very wonderful machines.

Apple doesn't make a small tablet that I can fit in my purse but Samsung does with their 7.7". One of the most fantastic tablets I have ever used and the critics feel the same, all of them even the hardcore Apple ones. This is an Apple fan site yes and I own pretty much every line of Apple products except the Mac Pro. However there are also some really incredible non Apple products on the market as well. I'm so tired of people blindly passing judgement on things they either don't own or no nothing about, they post negative thoughts because it makes them look cool on the board.

The worst thing is when we attack each other because we like certain things about another product that doesn't have a Apple on it. Who cares, if you think that the product you bought can make your life just a little bit more enjoyable then the brand name that is printed on the back doesn't matter. Can we all start rejoicing over technology in general, I am still in such awe that we live in a age where we can even talk to each other over great distances with a device no bigger then a box of cigarettes, let alone share data on the same device.

You're really too easy to please. Your remark about owning every Apple product except the Mac Pro while you enjoy using an Android tablet seems a little disingenuous to put it mildly. Maybe people like that become cross-dressers too, maybe not. Who knows what irrationality is anyhow.
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Google is a multi billion dollar company you don't think they can hire a customer service staff with a competent manager that are willing to talk with customers. That's the stupidest thing I've read so far on this forum.

Actually I think they can but that wasn't what he said. He said they won't listen to them and they will fail because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Yes the Google staff is mostly made up of geeks but what tech company isn't. Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

Yes it is a forgone conclusion here in this APPLE forum that only Apple can make the best consumer products available in this industry and is also able to SUPPORT those products with the best customer service in the industry. The point is Google has no intention to support the customer. They want the ODM to do it for them but the ODMs have even a worse track record of supporting their products. So no support from Google = No support from the ODMs = No customer support = Fail. Again.
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

And they're returning it because it's a POS device.

Sure, but that wasn't what you originally claimed.

You said people would not buy a tablet without seeing it in a physical store first. But plenty of people did buy a Kindle Fire without first seeing it (even if later on they returned it because it was crap).
post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

It's not that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products, but rather that Apple seems to be the only one who does ..... as is evidenced by the record numbers of customers who buy their products in ever increasing numbers and by constantly receiving the highest marks for customer satisfaction in the industry.

As my Mom used to say: "The proof is in the pudding".
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

You're really too easy to please. Your remark about owning every Apple product except the Mac Pro while you enjoy using an Android tablet seems a little disingenuous to put it mildly. Maybe people like that become cross-dressers too, maybe not. Who knows what irrationality is anyhow.

Why, I don't get it I'm sorry. The Android platform is like a playground for a geek like me. It's an open platform so you can do pretty much whatever you want to do on it. The interface is more like a normal OS, customisable, quick, multiple home screens, much better multitasking then iOS. People keep saying there isn't any apps for the platform but I have exactly the same apps on my Android tablet then I do on my iPad except for the music creation stuff and some games.

Sure it's different but I enjoy the platform, me, not you so why cant I enjoy it without ridicule from the peanut gallery. There's many Apple users who own both platforms. In fact one of the big reasons why I like Android 4.03 is because it's a lot like OSX in that I get all the power of the terminal with a nice GUI wrapper. I'm a programmer and I have C++ compiler installed, how great is that. Before you say who uses stuff like that on a tablet, I do and so do a lot of other people who are slowly moving over to a tablet to do their computing. Especially when you have a convertible tablet like the Asus Slider or Prime.

Apple has even said it themselves that their tablets are eating into their Macbooj nd iMac sells. Well, what do you do when you love the tablet from factor but can't do everything possible that you want to accomplish on the platform you own, you add another platform to your collection that can. That's what having a Android does for me it adds capabilities that the iPad can't do.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

And they're returning it because it's a POS device.

Kindle Fire return rate: 15% to 25%

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4379...e-fire-returns

Wow. Absolutely incredible. When was the last time a major, nationally hyped product had that kind of return rate?

And why isn't the media all over it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Google is a multi billion dollar company you don't think they can hire a customer service staff with a competent manager that are willing to talk with customers. That's the stupidest thing I've read so far on this forum. Yes the Google staff is mostly made up of geeks but what tech company isn't. Sometimes it's like you guys think that Apple is the only tech company in the world that can make decent products.

OK, if Google's customer service is so great, tell me their customer service phone number.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Wow. Absolutely incredible. When was the last time a major, nationally hyped product had that kind of return rate?

And why isn't the media all over it?

Perhaps it's because it's a competitor's guess?
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Perhaps it's because it's a competitor's guess?

They sure jump on rumors with a lot less basis when they can attack Apple.

A competitor doesn't just guess - not in this legal climate. They must have some basis for their estimates.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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