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RIM claims Apple using proxy votes to win nano-SIM standard

post #1 of 56
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In a letter sent to the European Telecommunications Standards Institute on Thursday, RIM alleges that Apple is trying to sway the nano-SIM standard vote by having company representatives change their affiliation to cast proxy votes.

Coming on the heels of Nokia's threat to not license SIM-related patents if ETSI decides in favor of Apple's nano-SIM design, the RIM letter further confounds the european organization's decision on the new standard.

Uncovered by The Verge, RIM's complaint names three supposed Apple employees who changed their affiliation "over night and register[ed] to the meeting not representing their employer or any of their affiliates but representing a completely different company." The representatives reportedly flip-flopped and registered as proxies for Bell Mobility, KT Corp., and SK Telekom.

If the claims are true, it would be in violation of ETSI Technical Working Procedures that prohibits voting by proxy. RIM is calling votes from the offending representatives to be disqualified.

No Voting by Proxy During a Technical Body Meeting


Apple, Nokia and RIM all submitted competing designs for the future nano-SIM standard which is currently undergoing voting by ETSI in France.

The nano-SIM battle has heated up as the vote draws near because patent rights to the future standard could mean royalty fees for the losers. Earlier this week, Apple pledged to offer royalty-free licensing if its design were to win, but Nokia criticized the move as an attempt to devalue competitors' patents.

As smart devices become slimmer and more feature-rich, internal space is becoming a highly valued commodity and as such manufacturers are looking to cut excess mass wherever they can. The proposed nano-SIM format, based on 20-year-old SIM technology, would shrink the card size to allow a device to carry more critical components like more radios and higher capacity batteries.

Apple's design is basically a modification of the current microSIM standard minus some extraneous plastic around the metal contacts. Competitors are wary, however, because the specifications call for a tray to be used and there is concern that users may accidentally force Apple's nano-SIM into incompatible existing card slots.

ETSI is in the process of voting on the new standard and should decide on a final design in the coming days.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 56
1) This whole Nano-SIM situation seems like some caddy, high-school, slap fighting event.

2) If that is true that seems like a very underhanded move by Apple. I wonder if Nokia and RiM are pulling a similar stunt?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #3 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

In a letter sent to the European Telecommunications Standards Institute on Thursday, RIM alleges that Apple is trying to sway the nano-SIM standard vote by having company representatives change their affiliation to cast proxy votes.



so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than
post #4 of 56
This is all about money. Nokia is afraid it will be deprived of licensing revenue. Apple likely is trying to hurt Nokia or in the very least try to save some money it otherwise has to pay to Nokia.
post #5 of 56
^-- Yep... I don't understand why it's such a hard decision. It seems like a win-win if apple is giving the rights away for free. That helps promote technology.

As for the proxy voting, I'd like to see some more evidence.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #6 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

^-- Yep... I don't understand why it's such a hard decision. It seems like a win-win if apple is giving the rights away for free. That helps promote technology.

As for the proxy voting, I'd like to see some more evidence.

But when you have to choose between advancing technology and making a profit, which would you choose, especially if your goal isn't to 'make a dent in the universe'?
post #7 of 56
And this coming out at the same time as RIM exec resignations. Coincidence?

True or not, I'm smelling vinegar from tons and tons of sour grapes. \

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

than who? Google? Who steals my personal WiFi info on a drive-by and fails to mention it? Who knowingly bypasses a security feature on an OS to steal more of my personal info? Who basically sells my online identity to the highest bidder? Yeah, you're right, this is in the same ballpark.
post #9 of 56
This just in, technology companies act in their own self interest and people have nothing better to do than complain about all the methods taken by those same companies to provide them with free services.

For the record, Google's supposed stealing of data never resulted in any breach of privacy whatsoever.
post #10 of 56
The claims that these people are Apple employees ought to be easy enough to verify.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

The reason that line keeps coming up when people talk about Google is they had the sanctimoniousness to have it emblazoned at their headquarters. Apple didn't. Also, it's hard to see how this behavior counts as evil, anyhow, unless you worship a god of bureaucracy. It's not like the rule in question represents some codification of a deep point of morality. It's just a "proxies aren't allowed." Considering that if Apple wins this, they're going to give the license away for free, you should probably save your indignant trembling for something more important.
post #11 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

...Toys R Us?

Don't leave us in suspense!
post #12 of 56
Hmmmm... so, it seems that Apple is trying to "win", while RiM seems dedicated to "losing"...?

And they both seem to be very good at those respective aims...


I guess I don't understand what this use of the term "proxy" implies.

Or, I guess that maybe RiM and Nokia were hoping to sell the rights to their own developed standards, so the idea of adopting a different standard which would be free to all would be a threat...

That IS a dastardly Apple strategy.
post #13 of 56
RIM is teetering towards nonexistence, and yet they have time to point fingers at Apple. Wow, talk about knowing where your priorities are!

RIM investors, all of you really need to consider abandoning this sinking ship.
Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
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Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
Reply
post #14 of 56
Does anyone actually care what RIM thinks anymore. Give them another year, maybe two, and they won't even exist beyond any patents that they sell.
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

The claims that these people are Apple employees ought to be easy enough to verify.




The reason that line keeps coming up when people talk about Google is they had the sanctimoniousness to have it emblazoned at their headquarters. Apple didn't. Also, it's hard to see how this behavior counts as evil, anyhow, unless you worship a god of bureaucracy. It's not like the rule in question represents some codification of a deep point of morality. It's just a "proxies aren't allowed." Considering that if Apple wins this, they're going to give the license away for free, you should probably save your indignant trembling for something more important.

The fact that Apple is prepared to give away revenue from their IP, providing that all parties do the same is not Apple being altruistic. By that act Apple undermines the business model of Nokia and RIM which rely, in part, on revenues from these sources as income and for company valuation. It is a bold play on Apple's part but the competition sees it (and rightly so) as a threat and cannot allow the play to succeed.

It may look childish, but I can assure you it is not. This is war being played out at a corporate level. If Apple succeeds here, it is possible they can widen the same strategy to other IP claims; appearing to take the high ground, gaining public support and, at the same time undermining the revenue strategies of the competition.

Since it was made so easy to lodge a patent (even if nothing has been made of that patent) there has been an enormous rush to patent everything that might be useful one day. This has resulted in it being almost impossible to build something without some past patent being tripped over. Some of these patents are owned by patent trolls. Some of these patents are owned by companies that used to innovate but now only want to cash in on their past work. Motorola is an interesting case. A soon to be has-been company whose real value is the portfolio it owns and how that portfolio may be used to slow Apple down in its chosen arena.

Apple's introduction of an IP moratorium in certain areas, if it can be broadened with public support, will hit not only Nokia and RIM but also Motorola and Google.

To be honest, I hope Apple succeed. To my mind, the bigger picture involves reworking the patent system so it encourages innovation as well as rewarding inventors. At the moment neither of those benefits are apparent.
post #16 of 56
Can't wait for the time when Apple is free to sell iPhone w/o carriers tie ups. I mean, won't be long before Apple buy airtime in bulk from existing local carriers e.g. like Tesco Mobile, Virgin Mobile doing in the UK (traditional carriers will still get paid from 1, Apple and 2, other phone users). Also, time would be near when WiFi penetrability would go beyond open spaces and into tunnels, undergrounds and lifts (or elevators if you insist). When it does, Apple main selling point would connectivity all areas and instant activation. Oh, no SIM! Amirite?
post #17 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

"... no better than Mother Teresa."

Understandably the sentence couldn't be finished with Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Nokia, RIM, AT&T, Verizon, Goldman Sachs, or politicians. The the entire concept of using "so much for do no evil" is pretty funny since that's the Google slogan anyway, not Apple's.
post #18 of 56
Perhaps on your side of the pond, yes. Our evil carriers in the US would never let such a thing happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash-reverse View Post

Can't wait for the time when Apple is free to sell iPhone w/o carriers tie ups. I mean, won't be long before Apple buy airtime in bulk from existing local carriers e.g. like Tesco Mobile, Virgin Mobile doing in the UK (traditional carriers will still get paid from 1, Apple and 2, other phone users). Also, time would be near when WiFi penetrability would go beyond open spaces and into tunnels, undergrounds and lifts (or elevators if you insist). When it does, Apple main selling point would connectivity all areas and instant activation. Oh, no SIM! Amirite?
Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
Reply
Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
Reply
post #19 of 56
Aw, snap!

'coulda been a contenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstep View Post

"... no better than Mother Teresa."

Understandably the sentence couldn't be finished with Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Nokia, RIM, AT&T, Verizon, Goldman Sachs, or politicians. The the entire concept of using "so much for do no evil" is pretty funny since that's the Google slogan anyway, not Apple's.
Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
Reply
Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
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post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredumb View Post

Or, I guess that maybe RiM and Nokia were hoping to sell the rights to their own developed standards, so the idea of adopting a different standard which would be free to all would be a threat...

I doubt Nokia would make more than pennies on the dollar per device if it were solely about royalties since its patents would be FRAND patents, but i dont know exactly.

The biggest issue here for this whole squad going against Apple is that if Apple's design gets chosen every device they make will have to be redesigned to include a SIM tray in some form. Almost every device from Nokia/RIM/Moto has a slide in mechanism on the backside of the phone underneath the battery cover with a piece of metal sitting on top to make sure the SIM stays connected to the contact points and in place.

The current implementation for these 3 is the cheapest you can possibly get, and having to redesign said implementation means adding to the price of the phone (nickels and dimes add up over millions of devices). Not only that but implementing the SIM tray will mean having to completely redesign almost every phone, which will certainly cost more than a few nickels and dimes.

Apple on the other hand has its designs essentially set in stone, they will almost continue to use a SIM tray simply because they have designed their hardware for it and for them to change it is going to cost multi-millions, and could increase material costs for them.

In short, everyone is out for themselves here because whoever loses is gonna be spending a good chunk of change to get things in order.
post #21 of 56
They gave iPhone cases for free too, now they are giving their ip up for free, oh the altruism of apple...and all that during a week when they were called out for innaculately reporting battery % of the iPad, then had a tech representative lie again in terms of the reasons for doing this, and now allegedly arranging proxy voting to gobble up whatever little leverage their already waaaay smaller and weaker competitors have in terms of ip (an ip they developed over years of being in the phone business). I wonder how much innovation is going to gain by having every small player crashed under apple's clout...

Of course this is corporal culture and one can't realistically hold it against them for being in the business of ruthlessly obliterating their competitors, but I was under the impression that they were ALSO in the business of making great products, how about concentrating on fixing the aberration that is the new atv interface then instead?
post #22 of 56
So funny when big companies whine. Nokia and RIM sound like a child who wants a new toy.

When this all started, Nokia was accusing Apple of just trying to make money with Apple's nano-SIM standard. Of course, Nokia neglects to say that they want to make money, as well. Apple responds (calls Nokia on it) by saying then we will give our patents away for free if you give it away free. Nokia is now complaining that Apple is undermining them. Nokia, you can't have it both ways; you should have just stayed quiet.

Nokia also says that Apple doesn't have any useful patents; so of course, they can give it away free. So if Apple didn't have any useful patents, then why does Nokia care so much. Also if Nokia's patents are so far reaching, no matter what standard gets selected, it is assumed that they make a buck because Nokia's patents has to be used in any standard presented.

Finally, sometimes there are the "understood" rules of how things work. They aren't spelled out, but everyone does them. This proxy thing sounds to me like one of those things that everyone does, but they don't normally talk about. It is just that Apple seems to be doing a better job, and it is pissing RIM and Nokia off.
post #23 of 56
Ok so then Apple wins and get their design approved. Nokia says piss off, no licenses for you. Then what? It doesn't seem that Apple can proceed without key licenses.
post #24 of 56
It's pathetic to see how Rim, a once great company, is drowning in a sea of sour grapes. I am surprised that none of these vanishing companies try to collaborate with Apple. Instead they just spew anti-Apple hatred as they take their last gasp and go under. Must be stupidity or pride or the CEO's golden parachutte.
post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

They gave iPhone cases for free too, now they are giving their ip up for free, oh the altruism of apple...and all that during a week when they were called out for innaculately reporting battery % of the iPad, then had a tech representative lie again in terms of the reasons for doing this, and now allegedly arranging proxy voting to gobble up whatever little leverage their already waaaay smaller and weaker competitors have in terms of ip (an ip they developed over years of being in the phone business). I wonder how much innovation is going to gain by having every small player crashed under apple's clout...

Of course this is corporal culture and one can't realistically hold it against them for being in the business of ruthlessly obliterating their competitors, but I was under the impression that they were ALSO in the business of making great products, how about concentrating on fixing the aberration that is the new atv interface then instead?

Fuck me, idiotic points aside, are you running one of those modern computers that has a spellchecker?

Turn it on, dude, turn it on...
post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Ok so then Apple wins and get their design approved. Nokia says piss off, no licenses for you. Then what? It doesn't seem that Apple can proceed without key licenses.

if google can..
post #27 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

I wasn't really interested in this topic but read the title and said to myself "I wonder what ZZZ will have to say." You never fail to show your trolling sentiment. We have you pegged on it when we know what you'll say before we read it. But many have put you on the ignore list. This post is to show them you remain true to your core. I find you very entertaining and predictable, just like a ProView.
post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

clearly, you have the inside scoop.

troll.
post #29 of 56
"Apple pledged to offer royalty-free licensing if its design were to win" but I have a strong feeling Apple has already patented the tray that the nano-SIM fits into and they will charge royalty for that. Sneaky!
post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post

"Apple pledged to offer royalty-free licensing if its design were to win" but I have a strong feeling Apple has already patented the tray that the nano-SIM fits into and they will charge royalty for that. Sneaky!

As that's not even possible, your comment is either trolling or satire.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #31 of 56
Does Apple's proposed standard specifically mandate a tray? That part is odd, it seems to me that should be an implementation option, not a mandate. It seems silly shenanigans abound in this round. There's not a lot of information available on this, many of the comments are a little vague and can read either way.

Other than that, I do prefer the apparent pinout compatibility of Apple's version versus breaking it as RIM and Nokia have each proposed. I can see some benefit to the pin layout changes, I think the other designs allow external trayless card access, but the need for that might assume that one changes SIMs daily. I prefer to keep my old phone as a backup and just pop the card in an adapter.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

I wasn't really interested in this topic but read the title and said to myself "I wonder what ZZZ will have to say."

I'm flattered.
post #33 of 56
Wasn't the decision made to today? When will be find out?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Does Apple's proposed standard specifically mandate a tray? That part is odd, it seems to me that should be an implementation option, not a mandate.

I see nothing with any of the designs that would require or not allow a tray.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Fuck me, idiotic points aside, are you running one of those modern computers that has a spellchecker?

Turn it on, dude, turn it on...

Why use more words, when two just suffice. I ve told you when you took me to task about on instead of in, iPad in portrait mode, autocorrect on.
post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I see nothing with any of the designs that would require or not allow a tray.

I think the industry quotes about tray necessity is probably missing some important context.

For external card slot use, Apple's offering would require a tray, otherwise you might be powering / operating the SIM because if the thing was inserted the opposite edge in first, you could be running power to data pins. The other designs look more like microSD cards, and might be laid out to prevent that. A tray would help set the card orientation and prevent that possible problem. I'm curious how many device designs have external card access like that.
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

so much for do no evil. Apple is no better than

Gratz on first troll in the thread.

You're really starting to get predictable, you might want to change up your routine a little.
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Why use more words, when two just suffice. I ve told you when you took me to task about on instead of in, iPad in portrait mode, autocorrect on.

...brain in neutral.

It's cool. We get it. Forget about it.

(Sent from my iPad without any spelling errors. )
post #38 of 56
RIM better worry about that stock rather than Apple and their 100 billion war chest of bling!
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodGrief View Post

Gratz on first troll in the thread.

You're really starting to get predictable, you might want to change up your routine a little.

IMHO Trolls are jerks. That said, when you take a person to task for being a jerk, IMO they just become a bigger jerk and find more jerk-ish things to get your attention. That's why many have put ZZZ on their ignore list in the first place.
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

I doubt Nokia would make more than pennies on the dollar per device if it were solely about royalties since its patents would be FRAND patents, but i dont know exactly.

The biggest issue here for this whole squad going against Apple is that if Apple's design gets chosen every device they make will have to be redesigned to include a SIM tray in some form. Almost every device from Nokia/RIM/Moto has a slide in mechanism on the backside of the phone underneath the battery cover with a piece of metal sitting on top to make sure the SIM stays connected to the contact points and in place.

The current implementation for these 3 is the cheapest you can possibly get, and having to redesign said implementation means adding to the price of the phone (nickels and dimes add up over millions of devices). Not only that but implementing the SIM tray will mean having to completely redesign almost every phone, which will certainly cost more than a few nickels and dimes.

Apple on the other hand has its designs essentially set in stone, they will almost continue to use a SIM tray simply because they have designed their hardware for it and for them to change it is going to cost multi-millions, and could increase material costs for them.

In short, everyone is out for themselves here because whoever loses is gonna be spending a good chunk of change to get things in order.

You've got that wrong. Both the Nokia and RIM proposals are smaller than the nano-SIM proposed by apple, and they are a completely new design. So, those will need to use trays too, and they can be used only on newer phones, cannot be used on the existing ones (which apple's nano-SIM can with a cheap plastic adapter). So, your argument doesn't hold water.

This fight must be about the patents.
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