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Foxconn workers question why hours are being cut after FLA review - Page 4

post #121 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

...doesn't have a ginormous military to nurse.

Some might argue that, beyond some reasonable, needed level, "ginormity" is a matter of choice, not necessity!
post #122 of 206
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -Euripides
Greek tragic dramatist (484 BC - 406 BC)
post #123 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

I clearly understand that you don't have the faintest idea about how variable costs and fixed costs works in.

Sure.

This, from a guy who thinks that fixed costs go to zero as the number of units increases..... I'd love to live in that world.
post #124 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yes, it was. And it was done without the Congress ever formally "declaring war" (which, under the US Constitution, they are required to do).

Link
Quote:
During the lead-up to war in March 2003, Hans Blix had found no stockpiles of WMD and had made significant progress toward resolving open issues of disarmament noting "proactive" but not always the "immediate" Iraqi cooperation as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1441. He concluded that it would take “but months” to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks.[4] The United States asserted this was a breach of Resolution 1441 but failed to convince the UN Security Council to pass a new resolution authorizing the use of force due to lack of evidence.[5][6][7] Despite being unable to get a new resolution authorizing force and citing section 3 of the Joint Resolution passed by the U.S. Congress,[8] President George W. Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War,[9] despite multiple dissenting opinions[10] and questions of integrity[11][12][13] about the underlying intelligence.[14] Later U.S.-led inspections agreed that Iraq had earlier abandoned its WMD programs, but asserted Iraq had an intention to pursue those programs if UN sanctions were ever lifted.[15] Bush later said that the biggest regret of his presidency was "the intelligence failure" in Iraq,[16] while the Senate Intelligence Committee found in 2008 that his administration "misrepresented the intelligence and the threat from Iraq".[17] A key CIA informant in Iraq admitted that he lied about his allegations, "then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war".[18]

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposit..._United_States

Quote:
In the 2008 U.S. presidential campaign, candidates Representatives Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, then-Senator Barack Obama (Now President of the United States), Senators Chris Dodd, Hillary Clinton and Mike Gravel were some of the most outspoken critics of the Iraq War. Ron Paul has said that "The war in Iraq was sold to us with false information. The area is more dangerous now than when we entered it. We destroyed a regime hated by our direct enemies, the jihadists, and created thousands of new recruits for them. This war has cost more than 3,000 American lives, thousands of seriously wounded, and hundreds of billions of dollars."[43] Barack Obama (who went on to win the election) was not a senator at the time of the voting of the Iraq War Resolution, but has repeatedly voiced his disapproval of it both before and during his senatorship, saying at an anti war rally in Chicago on October 2, 2002: "I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars." He also spoke of the "undetermined length... undetermined cost, [and] undetermined consequences" which even a successful war would bring.[44][45] Dodd voted in favor of the Iraq War Resolution in 2002, but Dodd has since become an opponent of the war.[46] Dodd has said the Iraq War has been waged “for all the wrong reasons” and that it is eroding both the nation's security and its moral leadership.[47]

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post #125 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

...and I clearly understand that you don't have the faintest idea about how variable costs and fixed costs works in.

... oh yes he does.

You're not paying attention. jmho
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post #126 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Sure.

This, from a guy who thinks that fixed costs go to zero as the number of units increases..... I'd love to live in that world.

You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.

Corrections: One of the few dishonest. I do not believe you don't understand the difference between the average and the marginal.
post #127 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.

Corrections: One of the few dishonest.

You haven't been paying attention, then.
post #128 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.

Corrections: One of the few dishonest. I do not believe you don't understand the difference between the average and the marginal.

That remark is just rude.
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post #129 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

You haven't been paying attention, then.

No, guess we have the keep away from the trolls
post #130 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Link

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposit..._United_States

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Hillary and the majority of Senate Democrats voted for it.
post #131 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Hillary and the majority of Senate Democrats voted for it.

Proving that it was NOT unanimous.

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post #132 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The answer is for people to stop trying to dictate working conditions in other countries.

True, but when the company is of one country and its products are manufactured in another there is overlap, but it's between company/manufacturing country, not company's country/manufacturing country. It's not a U.S. responsibility for sure, but it is for the U.S. company with factories in China, as well as China's, naturally. And whatever they decide our choice to buy or not is pretty much the extent of what our involvement should be. We hope that the players do the right thing, but the mix of working conditions/factory wages/living conditions in Far East factory regions is far too deep rooted for most of the issues that make the media to be even close to the ones that will make a difference by moving certain numbers a little up or down.
post #133 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Proving that it was NOT unanimous.

MAJORITY- meaning it was bi-partisan.
post #134 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I actually some were foolish enough to except Foxconn to start paying them the minimum of the country/state they reside in.

If they can't allow people to work as many hours then you build more dorms and hire more people. We saw the number of people lining up. Of course, now you have more idle young adults and a lot more of them in a much more crowded space. Will these myopic westerners consider the dangers of that situation?

The situation is not as simple. Foxconn can't hire enough people. There is a labor shortage in China. People have choices these days. You may see 1000 people lining up at Foxconn, but Foxconn has 2000 positions to be filled. Now you get the idea. Foxconn needs to keep on hiring just to replace those workers who quit their jobs.
post #135 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Hillary and the majority of Senate Democrats voted for it.

Bullshit. As your link proves between the HoR and Senate most Democrats voted against it while the Republicans were nearly unanimous.

Democrats: 43.0% ayes; 57% nays.
Republicans: 97% ayes, 3% nays.

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post #136 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

I'm surprised to see you dive into politics. I reckon if the mods do, it's open season for the trolls.

"If everyone's a troll, then no one is." (...with apologies to "The Incredibles")

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post #137 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

MAJORITY- meaning it was bi-partisan.

I'm the one who said it was bipartisan. I never said it was unanimous.

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post #138 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Bullshit. As your link proves between the HoR and Senate most Democrats voted against it while the Republicans were nearly unanimous.

You really need a reading comprehension, statistics AND a history refresher course.

Senate vote: Democrats Ays 29 Nays 21.
How can you not understand what I mean when I said "A Majority of Senate Democratics"???
post #139 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'm the one who said it was bipartisan. I never said it was unanimous.

I never said it was unanimous either- I said it was bi-partisan too.
But what congressional vote has ever been unanimous? World War 2 perhaps?
post #140 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

You really need a reading comprehension, statistics AND a history refresher course.

Senate vote: Democrats Ays 29 Nays 21.
How can you not understand what I mean when I said "A Majority of Senate Democratics"???

I know you specifically ignored the HoR numbers because it weakened your position.

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post #141 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

That remark is just rude.

It was I admit, but we are really talking, or should be I believe, about an evil regime, and not let it be derailed into a discussion about wether the most privileged workers (arguably) in China are being exploited, freely working overtime to be able to better support their family and build a new future. People putting into this that Foxcon does not know how to optimize their own costs, really make me question their motives.
post #142 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I know you specifically ignored the HoR numbers because it weakened your position.

I don't think so. Good try though.
The Senate in this country approves laws drafted in HoR.
I don't know what history books you read growing up but I would throw them out.
post #143 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

Why don't you just say that FreeRange is right, instead of demonstrating it!

I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Workers are paid a competitive wage based on market conditions

It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
post #144 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

It was I admit, but we are really talking, or should be I believe, about an evil regime, and not let it be derailed into a discussion about wether the most privileged workers (arguably) in China are being exploited, freely working overtime to be able to better support their family and build a new future. People putting into this that Foxcon does not know how to optimize their own costs, really make me question their motives.

I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.
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post #145 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

How myopic. There are billions of people suffering in the world (these factory workers are relatively affluent). They make 10 dollars a day or more. Way more than most people in the world do.

So if you assemble me a computer that I made $300 profit on and compensated you $0.25, could I call you a complainer and use this excuse to justify it?
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post #146 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.



It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.

My understanding of what FreeRange meant is that there are laws in China, but the laws are only valid from case to case when supported by the communist party where the real power is.
This I believe is a true representation of the current conditions, I still believe however, that China is moving in the right direction, and that what western business like Apple are doing in China basically is a good thing.
post #147 of 206
now the workers have more time to plan their suicides
post #148 of 206
The comment from one worker that "We're here to work not play" is quite telling. That is why Americans are considered lazy, and why jobs are being sent overseas in some cases. (The other is more problematic -- American companies in other countries are allowed to destroy their environment was well as their culture).

However, in many cases, professionals in this country do work substantially more than 40 hours a week.

But, there are problems with extensive overtime. Truck drivers falling asleep at the wheel, overtime and multiple jobs for airline pilots, assembly line workers in factories, nurses and doctors on multiple shifts without enough rest, teachers working all day at school, and working many additional hours after. Students in my college days took "speed" to keep up with the rigors of college. Not healthy.

The US also has a sordid history of abuse in this area such as the garment workers in NYC during the late 1800's and into the post WW I eras. More recently coal miners before federal intervention. Today, migrant workers supplying food to our tables (so we Americans can become even more obese).

I would expect many on this forum are professionally involved with technical development projects, and know full well the symptom of low quality product release -- to make a deadline, 60 hour weeks over a period of more than two weeks.

The question should be, did Foxconn cut back too much given cultural, human capacity limits and safety issues? There is a difference between imposing American sensitivities to other cultures and accepting working conditions which are otherwise not morally repugnant.

I certainly lack enough knowledge of the conditions in China to balance these issues.
post #149 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

The Senate in this country approves laws drafted in HoR.

That is not quite true. Only revenue legislation must originate in the House. Otherwise both houses have equal voice in drafting bills.

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post #150 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.

I have a problem not understanding that it is incomprehensible to understand that the marginal cost of one more working hour is less, not more, all costs considered, even if paying more for that hour in wages. However my main objection is the "help" we in the west want to extend to these workers, who we do not believe understand their own best. A long long time ago, before I was as lucky to have the job I have now (with no overtime compensation, and plenty "overtime") I went working for a season in the arctic away from my family. There was regulations regarding overtime, but we did everything we could to break them. I guess I should have understood that I should rather have spent 16 hours a day in the barracks, than making some more money. Guess I was a stupid worker... Any chance this could be the situation we are looking at?
post #151 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

"If everyone's a troll, then no one is." (...with apologies to "The Incredibles")

I loved that line. Dashiel Robert Parr is who I want to be when I grow up. The banter throughout that movie made it my favorite Pixar film. Timeless.
post #152 of 206
Not sure anyone said this, I highly doubt since most people here have no clue how this stuff works in China.

Just to educated people, unlike the US when a company in china who manufactures product for western companies are found to be in violation of the labor laws in china, it is not the government who comes in and fines them or fixes the situation. What happens is the government notifies the western company that their manufacturer is in violation of the labor laws and they are required to fix the issue with that manufacturer.

Interesting how that works, in stead of the government coming and being the heavy to make sure labor abuse does not happen they force companies to be the heavy. The reason being, if the western company want the government off their back they usually have to pay more to the manufacturing company so they can hire more people of fix the issue that are causing the problem. That is what Apple did that got Fox to give the workers a raise and in turn you know Apple paid more.

China likes this since they do not have to be the heavy on their companies and usually it means more workers making more money which is all good for China.
post #153 of 206
America, F$ck Yeah!

Media get a few workers to say how bad things are for a few dollars of bribery.

Team AmericFLA fly in, nuke the place, shoot all around them, claim a victory over bad standards and leave.

People left looking horrified, wondering WTF? and then go back to the Media and say how bad things are now, they cant afford to live.

But, hey, WE know whats best for them, because , look, the Western Culture has SOOO got it right. No Problems over here. Our 'do-godders' havent ruined things and we have no problems. Crime is virtually eliminated. So they REALLY should do things OUR way.

Like F$ck !!

China, close up the borders again and boot foreigners out. You'll be better off in the long run.
post #154 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPT View Post

You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.

Corrections: One of the few dishonest. I do not believe you don't understand the difference between the average and the marginal.

First of all, you've been reported for name-calling. (The fact that you will descend to that says more about you than me.)

If, as someone else was suggesting, you were making the case that employee-related costs -- e.g., hiring, training, coming up-to-speed on productivity, accommodation, etc expenses -- could affect average wages (e.g., increase it from the current $1.75 equilibrium), you might actually have a case. Even then, one would have to trade off the net additional per-worker-hour costs of that against the gains from overtime per-worker-hour-costs saved.

Instead, you claim that "in the limit" fixed costs go to zero when you add more labor hours/volume. They don't. You have to account for the fact that you will use the machines more (they depreciate faster; they need more maintenance; there will be greater downtime), you will create more wear and tear on the building (e.g., straining building infrastructure such as HVAC systems, plumbing, waste/pollution handling, keeping the cafeteria open longer) that the lessor will want additional compensation for, you use more electricity/energy, you need a greater support staff (e.g., cafeteria workers, custodial staff, secretaries, supervisors) generate more waste/pollution/emissions etc. The key point you seem to be missing is the following: Any such additional costs imposed on fixed assets would be the same regardless of whether they came from the same worker working for an extra hour or from a new worker working that hour.

Moreover, your fixed assets don't come free "in the limit". Beyond a point, as volume increases (whether from the same employee doing overtime work or an extra employee was doing that work in place of the overtime worker), you will need a step change in investments in fixed assets: in other words, the investment in fixed assets changes as a "staircase" function of volume.

If anyone has trouble keeping his ideas of average versus marginal costs straight, it really would appear to be you.
post #155 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

That is not quite true. Only revenue legislation must originate in the House. Otherwise both houses have equal voice in drafting bills.

But not in this case mentioned. The resolution came out of the HoR.
But my point is the Senate needs to pass it. I know there can be exception of overiding by HoR but again not in this case
What is this?- The Supreme Court' at AI?
post #156 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.

There's also such a thing as starving to death, and if you don't think people in China understand the trade-off between RSI (talk about rich people problems, sheesh) and their family back in the village starving to death, you're nuts. With that much less overtime there's that much less money to send back home and how many children will die as a result of that? It's more than zero, 100% guarantee.

Forcing an employee not to do what they want to do is always making that person worse off. Grow and yourself.
post #157 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

Thanks for finishing that one up for us
post #158 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcode View Post

I think there is enough blame to go around. But I digress...

Anybody who thinks "its the conservatives" OR "it's the liberals" is just as much a part of the problem as the other side. It's those in the middle who didn't screw it up, that's for sure.
post #159 of 206
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
post #160 of 206
Please, is there anyone here who can delete the flotsam and jetsam on this site?

Is the whole of the thread complete bullshit, for I seem to be missing any cogent comments based on the article.

Please, to all of you who commented not on point to the story, please remove your comments. Then I will be happy to remove this comment, and make believe those who participated had only intelligent and thoughtful comments to make.
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