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Google, Facebook working to undermine Do Not Track privacy protections - Page 2

post #41 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Because I know what value I get from them. \

And how much of that "value" is due to their tracking?
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post #42 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And how is that exactly?

I do not want to be tracked online. Maybe you do, but I don't. I use my Safari browser everyday. I have cookies turned off but Google figured out how to override that and track me anyway. I had a friend mention a mental disorder three weeks ago so I Googled it. The next day I notice I started getting emails about going to school to treat mental disorders. It was unsettling. The clearly know who we are and what we are doing online because they know I was looking in to schools so it put two and two together and got 3.

They are collecting and selling us with out our permission. The other problem is we don't know what else is being collected. When they are hacked again what personal info will be accessed? Credit Cards, social?
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post #43 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't know. I'm not the one placing the ads. But, from my experience, my guess is that they are trying to learn more about you in order to better target ads to you.

Exactly. And we don't want that. Nor should anyone have to have that if they don't desire it. You can't possibly argue against this. It's a matter of opinion. "Don't use it" is neither an excuse nor an argument nor any sort of way to bend people from our point to yours.

I just cleaned through my cookies and set it to "BLOCK ALL". 36 websites. I reloaded this page. 40 websites. google-analytics.com, bkrtx.com, cdnlayer.com, advertising.com.

Huh.
Tallest Skil & Relic
"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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Tallest Skil & Relic
"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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post #44 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

And how much of that "value" is due to their tracking?

No idea. I'm getting so much value it doesn't matter to me.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:39pm
btw: Any thought that innovation would be stymied by prohibiting tracking is absolute fallacy.
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post #46 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Exactly. And we don't want that. Nor should anyone have to have that if they don't desire it. You can't possibly argue against this. It's a matter of opinion. "Don't use it" is neither an excuse nor an argument nor any sort of way to bend people from our point to yours.

It is an action you can take.

You want to leverage all of the free resources that are being provided but want to give nothing in return. That's fine, but then you ought to do the work. Block cookies. Setup your browser to not send anything out. It can be done.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Exactly. And we don't want that. Nor should anyone have to have that if they don't desire it. You can't possibly argue against this. It's a matter of opinion. "Don't use it" is neither an excuse nor an argument nor any sort of way to bend people from our point to yours.

I just cleaned through my cookies and set it to "block from advertisers and third parties". 36 websites. I reloaded this page. 40 websites. google-analytics.com, bkrtx.com, cdnlayer.com, advertising.com.

Huh.

Have you tried blocking ALL?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #48 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Have you tried blocking ALL?

Yes, sorry, that's actually what I meant. I'll edit my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You want to leverage all of the free resources that are being provided but want to give nothing in return.

I'm never going to give anything in return anyway! I'll never click on anyone's idiotic ads! Ever! For any reason! At any time! Regardless of if they're "targeted" toward me!

You're advocating for the digital equivalent of stores being able to watch me go to a clothing store, make a comment about how I like grapefruit juice (OR SAY NOTHING AT ALL), and then be sent spam snail-mail TO MY HOME from a grocery store, advertising grapefruit juice.

Come ON.
Tallest Skil & Relic
"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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Tallest Skil & Relic
"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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post #49 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yes, sorry, that's actually what I meant. I'll edit my post.

Use a different browser. Sounds like Safari is not respecting your wishes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. Is Google's way of making money evil? If so, why?

Simple. Google devalues other people's IP. Google books: Copy the world's books and post 1/6 of a book on line calling it fair use. Don't get permission from the copyright holder but do link it into your ad engine to shift profit from the creator to Google.

Google is heading us down a path where quality content is devalued to such a point that he creators will simply stop creating or sharing their work.
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post #51 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You're advocating for the digital equivalent of stores being able to watch me go to a clothing store, make a comment about how I like grapefruit juice (OR SAY NOTHING AT ALL), and then be sent spam snail-mail TO MY HOME from a grocery store, advertising grapefruit juice.

Come ON.

I suppose those are rough analogies. And so what? Throw the mail out. I get tons of junk mail no matter what I do. I just throw it out. I have spam filters on my email. Don't see about 99% of it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Simple. Google devalues other people's IP. Google books: Copy the world's books and post 1/6 of a book on line calling it fair use. Don't get permission from the copyright holder but do link it into your ad engine to shift profit from the creator to Google.

Google is heading us down a path where quality content is devalued to such a point that he creators will simply stop creating or sharing their work.

Maybe. There's no certainty of that though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #53 of 265
3/30/12 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No idea. I'm getting so much value it doesn't matter to me.


Wow- you are a cheap date. google and their shareholders love good little consumers like you that fall in line like you owe them something for their enormous return on manipulating you.
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post #54 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

Wow- you are a cheap date. google and their shareholders love good little consumers like you that fall in line like you owe them something for their enormous return on manipulating you.

Who said they are manipulating me?

I get to search for lots of information instantly. It's wonderful. Plus there are tons of free sites that provide me content for free all over the place. Worse case is I might see some ads (most of which I ignore...most are actually blocked by my ad blocker).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #55 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Maybe. There's no certainty of that though.

There is a high probability. I have aquaintances that have lost substantial income (as in thoer mortgage) as a result of Google books deciding to give away thier work to the world without thier permission. They wrote (as in past tense) amazingly clear and concise programming recipe books. They were small micro published books that sell for about $70. They would take a yea or so to write on the weekends and evenings.

Bummer they don't do them any more. Watching revenue drop from 1200/month to almost 0 made them madder than heck. Thier stories woke me up to Google's "do no Evil" as being a tag line hoping for idiots to believe in.
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post #56 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

There is a high probability. I have aquaintances that have lost substantial income (as in thoer mortgage) as a result of Google books deciding to give away thier work to the world without thier permission. They wrote (as in past tense) amazingly clear and concise programming recipe books. They were small micro published books that sell for about $70. They would take a yea or so to write on the weekends and evenings.

Bummer they don't do them any more. Watching revenue drop from 1200/month to almost 0 made them madder than heck. Thier stories woke me up to Google's "do no Evil" as being a tag line hoping for idiots to believe in.

Well perhaps authors will need to find different ways to provide their knowledge.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #57 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

There's an even simpler option (two actually):

1. Never go to or user their site(s).

2. Turn off cookies on your browser(s)...completely or just for Google and FB.

No laws. No special tokens. Nothing. And...you can start right this minute!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then don't use their websites. Turn off cookies. Stop using your browser.

You have the freedom to do all of that. Right now.

If only it worked as you claim.

Google has found ways to bypass browser security. Furthermore, you can't avoid sites that have Google ads on them unless you turn your computer off.

Then, of course, there's the matter of sites that don't work with cookie tracking off. For example, there are a couple of job search sites that require you to turn cookies on.

The user should have the right to block Google entirely.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #58 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then don't use their websites. Turn off cookies. Stop using your browser.

You have the freedom to do all of that. Right now.

So one side of your mouth is arguing that Google doesn't own a monopoly on how web sites are monetized, and the other is recommending users who want to opt out just stop using the web.

This sort of contradictory nonsense is something I recall spewing from a certain other AI troll user.
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post #59 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

If only it worked as you claim.

Google has found ways to bypass browser security. Furthermore, you can't avoid sites that have Google ads on them unless you turn your computer off.

Then, of course, there's the matter of sites that don't work with cookie tracking off. For example, there are a couple of job search sites that require you to turn cookies on.

The user should have the right to block Google entirely.

You're late. We've been through all of that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

So one side of your mouth is arguing that Google doesn't own a monopoly on how web sites are monetized, and the other is recommending users who want to opt out just stop using the web.

This sort of contradictory nonsense is something I recall spewing from a certain other AI troll user.

Ahhh...name calling. You must be losing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Who said they are manipulating me?

I get to search for lots of information instantly. It's wonderful. Plus there are tons of free sites that provide me content for free all over the place. Worse case is I might see some ads (most of which I ignore...most are actually blocked by my ad blocker).

The definition of a freetard, in a nutshell.
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post #62 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well perhaps authors will need to find different ways to provide their knowledge.

Or Google should stop stealing the work of others and linking it to thier ad engine?

You wanted to know how Google's method of earning money could be evil. I presented a solid real example.
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post #63 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:18pm
Privacy will always be a cat & mouse game, both legal and illegal, on the Internet. The Internet is the lawless wild west ethos. No one person or government can protect your privacy on the Internet. There are plenty of laws that protect certain sensitive personal data. That said, if you want someone else to secure your identity on the Internet, you will always be at risk. Using the Internet without being tracked isn't that hard to do. For most people the free program DNT+ is all that is needed. Those more concerned think in terms of stealth, proxies, monitoring I/O, and strong proactive security habits.

Only you can protect your privacy by utilizing some Internet street-smarts, really good software, and security services.
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post #64 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I have a better idea.

There's a "do not call" registry that you can sign up for which bans telemarketers from calling you. I'd favor the same thing for the Internet. If you sign up for the registry and install a token on your computer, they're not allowed to track you AT ALL.

Meanwhile, thank the molecules, we have some tools like click to flash and Little Snich. There's hardly a web page I visit that Little Snitch doesn't inform me that a request to 'connect' occured these days. I of course say no. This is why apps are the future, Google and Adobe are hijacking the web so we may as well move on.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #65 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

The definition of a freetard, in a nutshell.

Oh good. More name calling.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #66 of 265
3/30/12 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Or Google should stop stealing the work of others and linking it to thier ad engine?

You wanted to know how Google's method of earning money could be evil. I presented a solid real example.

Fair enough. Though they could stop doing this specific thing and still be making a profit I suspect.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #67 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Or Google should stop stealing the work of others and linking it to thier ad engine?

You wanted to know how Google's method of earning money could be evil. I presented a solid real example.

Exactly. The entire Google Books fiasco was a clear indication that Google did not respect anyone else's intellectual property.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #68 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Meanwhile, thank the molecules, we have some tools like click to flash and Little Snich. There's hardly a web page I visit that Little Snitch doesn't inform me that a request to 'connect' occured these days. I of course say no. This is why apps are the future, Google and Adobe are hijacking the web so we may as well move on.

Click to Flash is free, but why should I have to pay $30 to keep Google from invading my privacy? The default should be for them to keep their noses off my computer.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #69 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

Privacy will always be a cat & mouse game, both legal and illegal, on the Internet.

Good! Let's start playing the game already, Mr. Zuck.
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post #70 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No idea. I'm getting so much value it doesn't matter to me.

You might be in the minority.
Ignorance is not bliss, by the way.
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post #71 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

...2. Turn off cookies on your browser(s)...completely or just for Google...

This was done by default in Safari.

Google (and others) found and used a way to get around it.

Bing gets better every day.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #72 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:50pm
... is a program on the App store called 'Cookie' by SweetP productions. Does a great job of getting rid of the cookies I don't want (I'm looking at YOU, Google Analytics!) among others but lets me keep the ones I want - like to stay logged in to my favourite Apple Fan site.

It also deletes Flash Cookies, which are sneakier than the normal ones.

I have no affiliation at all with the company - just a happy user.
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
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..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
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post #73 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

You might be in the minority.

And I might not be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Ignorance is not bliss, by the way.

I know. I'm not ignorant of the issues, I just don't see them doing me any real harm, certainly in exchange for the value I receive at this point plus I have a variety of ways to block the stuff if I care enough.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #74 of 265
3/30/12 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Click to Flash is free, but why should I have to pay $30 to keep Google from invading my privacy? The default should be for them to keep their noses off my computer.

Same reason you pay money to put curtains in your house.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #75 of 265
3/30/12 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Bing gets better every day.

If you think for a second Microsoft won't do the same stuff you're nuts.

But...if they don't and offer that as a differentiator...COOL!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #76 of 265
3/30/12 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I know. I'm not ignorant of the issues, I just don't see them doing me any real harm

Sounds like ignorance to me!
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post #77 of 265
3/30/12 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Sounds like ignorance to me!



What harm is this doing to me? Fact is you have no idea. None. In other words you are ignorant of what it is doing to me, but speaking "authoritatively" from that ignorance.

Fact is, I'm probably much more knowledgeable than you (and certainly than the average web/internet user) about what going on.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #78 of 265
3/30/12 at 9:56pm
Someone mentioned Ghostery. I installed it and blocked everything. Seems to be working.

My opinion is and always has been (even before the Internet) that I own my personal data. It's mine and always has been and no should be allowed to use it without my explicit permission. This includes my credit info and my Internet browsing. No entity should be allowed to make money off my personal data - without me getting a cut.

This is only going to be solved by a federal law or a Constitutional amendment. Corporations want to be persons? Fine, but they can't have my data without paying for it.
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post #79 of 265
3/30/12 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

This is only going to be solved by a federal law or a Constitutional amendment.

Constitutional amendment?!



No. Federal law or a Constitutional amendment are not the only way this can be solved.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #80 of 265
3/30/12 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If you think for a second Microsoft won't do the same stuff you're nuts.

But...if they don't and offer that as a differentiator...COOL!

The only thing I care about is that it isn't Google, a company that has shown themselves time and time again to be too hypocritical for my liking.

When the first beta search engine came out of Stanford I thought they were pretty cool and used to recommend them to the rare friends who were using the Internet in those days, I guess over time greed and the lust for power corrupted Google .

For Google searches now I recommend this:-

https://startpage.com/

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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