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On health care and the Social Contract

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
“If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services — even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab. A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract.”

- Stuart Butler, the Heritage Foundation
post #2 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab. A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract.

- Stuart Butler, the Heritage Foundation

You seem to realize that what Butler is arguing involve no wealth transfers. Instead you mandate the poor and needy put their dollars toward their needs instead of towards their wants (lower economic classes were recently shown to spending disproportionately on the lottery and other studies have shown this for alcohol, cigarettes, etc.) You also need to recognize when pulling out this quote that there is no claim as for what level of government this mandate will occur at as well. We mandate school attendance but education is primarily a state function with a few federal priorities thrown in via various title programs.

So what you are posting about and thus supporting is an array of regressive taxes that demand the poor meet their needs so others won't have to do so. Mandate that they pay for things like retirement, health care, auto insurance if they drive, etc.

Take a look here, because while it talks about more recent news, it notes the prior history on this matter.


Quote:
After mandatory auto insurance laws with stiff penalties were enacted in California in 1984, low-income groups and civil rights activists sued the state government, arguing that low-income residents shouldn't be forced to buy auto insurance they could not afford.

So the point of your quote is, whether they can afford it or not, at the state level many Republicans believe we should indeed mandate some form of catastrophic health insurance.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You seem to realize that what Butler is arguing involve no wealth transfers. Instead you mandate the poor and needy put their dollars toward their needs instead of towards their wants (lower economic classes were recently shown to spending disproportionately on the lottery and other studies have shown this for alcohol, cigarettes, etc.) You also need to recognize when pulling out this quote that there is no claim as for what level of government this mandate will occur at as well. We mandate school attendance but education is primarily a state function with a few federal priorities thrown in via various title programs.

So what you are posting about and thus supporting is an array of regressive taxes that demand the poor meet their needs so others won't have to do so. Mandate that they pay for things like retirement, health care, auto insurance if they drive, etc.

Take a look here, because while it talks about more recent news, it notes the prior history on this matter.




So the point of your quote is, whether they can afford it or not, at the state level many Republicans believe we should indeed mandate some form of catastrophic health insurance.

Inserting "state" into the equation is your fabrication. It was not in the context of the Heritage Plan, which was discussing the health care system NATIONWIDE, not state by state. Nowhere in the paper written by Butler and published by the Foundation does it say the mandate should be limited to the states. You put the word "state" in there to cover your ass. Stop with the lies. You are a liar.

During the First Bush and the Clinton Administrations, the Heritage Foundation, your celebrated "conservative" geniuses, pushed for the individual mandate as part of our "Social Contract". They even used the word "contract" in the Heritage plan.

The fact that the Right Wing has now changed their story is a political move, not an ideological one. And all the sheep follow.
post #4 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Inserting "state" into the equation is your fabrication. It was not in the context of the Heritage Plan, which was discussing the health care system NATIONWIDE, not state by state. Nowhere in the paper written by Butler and published by the Foundation does it say the mandate should be limited to the states. You put the word "state" in there to cover your ass. Stop with the lies. You are a liar.

During the First Bush and the Clinton Administrations, the Heritage Foundation, your celebrated "conservative" geniuses, pushed for the individual mandate as part of our "Social Contract". They even used the word "contract" in the Heritage plan.

The fact that the Right Wing has now changed their story is a political move, not an ideological one. And all the sheep follow.

I cited a state example and citing one person, report, foundation or think tank does not mean ALL CONSERVATIVES or even THE RIGHT WING.

That is such lazy and biased thinking on your part. Why do you do that? Do you also not believe there can be honest disagreement about an idea and how to implement it or even some external sort of discussions and dialogs that later lead to different conclusions within a political party of philosophy? Are you of the view that all must start and end with the exact same conclusion lest they risk being political heretics?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I cited a state example and citing one person, report, foundation or think tank does not mean ALL CONSERVATIVES or even THE RIGHT WING.

That is such lazy and biased thinking on your part. Why do you do that? Do you also not believe there can be honest disagreement about an idea and how to implement it or even some external sort of discussions and dialogs that later lead to different conclusions within a political party of philosophy? Are you of the view that all must start and end with the exact same conclusion lest they risk being political heretics?

Haha. You were telling me what the point of my quote was. I was just saying that you misunderstood or misrepresented the point of the quote when you made that claim.
post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Haha. You were telling me what the point of my quote was. I was just saying that you misunderstood or misrepresented the point of the quote when you made that claim.

Dude, get real. At least try.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 14
Yes, even so-called conservatives use the magical "social contract" to justify authoritarianism and the perpetuation of the State.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #8 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab. A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract.

- Stuart Butler, the Heritage Foundation

Wow. Begging the question and a non sequitur in one quote. Good work.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Haha. You were telling me what the point of my quote was. I was just saying that you misunderstood or misrepresented the point of the quote when you made that claim.

The point is even the attempt at the joke didn't make any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Dude, get real. At least try.

Your mom..... oh see, a joke you said "Dude, get real. At least try." and I was like "your mom" and that totally busted and roasted you....totally.

Yeah, he doesn't get it does he?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So the point of your quote is, whether they can afford it or not, at the state level many Republicans believe we should indeed mandate some form of catastrophic health insurance.

No. The point of the quote was that whether they can afford it or not, many Republicans believe we should indeed mandate some form of catastrophic health insurance.

Not "at the state level".

That was your lie.
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No. The point of the quote was that whether they can afford it or not, many Republicans believe we should indeed mandate some form of catastrophic health insurance.

Not "at the state level".

That was your lie.

Considering I've only seen one Replican mandate it at the state level and your source is one quote from one think tank, I think you are dramatically overreaching.

You logic here is the same as me declaring Obama has put a price on Zimmerman's head because the New Black Panther Party undertook that action or that all leftists want Zimmerman dead.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Considering I've only seen one Replican mandate it at the state level and your source is one quote from one think tank, I think you are dramatically overreaching.

You logic here is the same as me declaring Obama has put a price on Zimmerman's head because the New Black Panther Party undertook that action or that all leftists want Zimmerman dead.

I'm not saying that's what all "Replicans" (good name!) believe in. I'm saying that it was a major policy position of (many, if not most) Republicans, and now, because it's attached to a Democratic president, it's being demonized and most Republicans oppose it.

I'm pointing out the fact that (the majority of) Republicans are acting like adolescent contrarians, and not being independently progressive.
post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm not saying that's what all "Replicans" (good name!) believe in. I'm saying that it was a major policy position of (many, if not most) Republicans, and now, because it's attached to a Democratic president, it's being demonized and most Republicans oppose it.

So your basis of proof is....what...one quote from one author in one think tank? Please cite a poll. Show a vote. List a piece of proposed legislation that received majority Republican support. Cite a party platform from some particular year like 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, etc.

You saying it doesn't make it so.

Quote:
I'm pointing out the fact that (the majority of) Republicans are acting like adolescent contrarians, and not being independently progressive.

The basis of your conclusion is one quote. That is just a ridiculous logical leap.

This represents the majority Democratic position with regard to race relations in this country. It is so because I say so.


Defend it our else I'll declare all Democrats are acting like hatemongers desiring a race war and not being independently tolerant and intelligent. They only feel they can act this way because of our Democratic president. Do you find this reasoning sound because it is your own reflected at you.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So your basis of proof is....what...one quote from one author in one think tank? Please cite a poll. Show a vote. List a piece of proposed legislation that received majority Republican support. Cite a party platform from some particular year like 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, etc.

You saying it doesn't make it so.



The basis of your conclusion is one quote. That is just a ridiculous logical leap.

This represents the majority Democratic position with regard to race relations in this country. It is so because I say so.


Defend it our else I'll declare all Democrats are acting like hatemongers desiring a race war and not being independently tolerant and intelligent. They only feel they can act this way because of our Democratic president. Do you find this reasoning sound because it is your own reflected at you.

This may interest you.

"Subtitle F: Universal Coverage - Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005. Provides an exception for any individual who is opposed for religious reasons to health plan coverage, including those who rely on healing using spiritual means through prayer alone."

18 Republican co-sponsors in the Senate (and 2 Dems)

Give me another attempt at an analogy. Please.
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